Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:59 pm
Well, Marshall Brain's website is a convincing read, but is it really...? From the prayers, Bible, Jesus, etc...
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
And that proves what? Has Mr Brain spoken to every amputee, dead or alive, ever and everywhere? Does he know all of them? How does he know what they pray for? How does he know that their prayers have not been answered?mick wrote:The Holding reply you cite is not a refutation of what Brain is saying. Brain's claim that amputees do not get their prayers for new limbs answered is demonstrably true.jerickson314 wrote:J.P. Holding has already written a reply to this claim here. In summary: God is not a gumball machine.
Fundies most certainly claim that the Bible is the perfect word of God. It is believed to have been "dictated" by God. . .no one says God took a pen and paper and wrote it down.jerickson314 wrote:Your point? That's an entirely different claim from the one Brain tries to refute. See below.Zamis1 wrote:Here is a typical site where fundamentalists claim that the Bible is the perfect word of God:
http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bi ... ration.php
That was big of them.jerickson314 wrote:For instance, perhaps if he had ever taken an ancient history course at any point of his life, he would know that slavery in the ancient world had important differences from American slavery in the 1800s. If he actually read from the Bible itself and not just quotes from other skeptics, he would know that ancient Israel had a "year of Jubilee" every 7 years in which all slaves were freed. I've actually just scratched the surface in terms of immediately obvious errors in this part of Brain's work, but I don't see the point in writing a substantial refutation of a work for which the author has obviously done too little homework.
Such as slavery? Slaughter of children? Capturing women for sex? Stoning someone for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?jerickson314 wrote:I guess another obvious error worth mentioning is that Brain completely ignores passages in the New Testament about how the law no longer applies to Gentiles. We can safely ignore parts of Old Testament law which were only applicable to ancient Hebrew culture. Reasoned study is needed to know when this is the case. A library of peer-reviewed theological journals can be found at many Christian seminaries, and would be a good source for further information.
He doesn't claim that, obviously.August wrote:And that proves what? Has Mr Brain spoken to every amputee, dead or alive, ever and everywhere? Does he know all of them? How does he know what they pray for? How does he know that their prayers have not been answered?mick wrote:The Holding reply you cite is not a refutation of what Brain is saying. Brain's claim that amputees do not get their prayers for new limbs answered is demonstrably true.jerickson314 wrote:J.P. Holding has already written a reply to this claim here. In summary: God is not a gumball machine.
Do you agree with the statements above in bold?No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing will happen. The legs will not regenerate. Prayer does not restore the severed limbs of amputees. You can read all the medical journals ever written -- there is no documented case of an amputated leg being restored spontaneously. And we know that God ignores the prayers of amputees through our own observations of the world around us. If God were answering the prayers of amputees to regenerate their lost limbs, we would be seeing amputated legs growing back every day.
Isn't that odd? Christian inspirational literature is full of thousands of stories like Jeanna's and Marilyn Hickey's. But God does not restore the legs of amputees. Whether you are a Christian or not, the situation here appears to be most peculiar.
Why must you misrepresent my words? The laws were given by God, but they were directed towards the pre-Messianic ancient Hebrew culture. I did not say that the laws were created by ancient Hebrew culture. The New Testament talks about this in several places (Romans discusses the issue extensively, for example) if you actually take the time to read the Bible for once. Theologians have also written much on the topic.mick wrote:Such as slavery? Slaughter of children? Capturing women for sex? Stoning someone for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?jerickson314 wrote:I guess another obvious error worth mentioning is that Brain completely ignores passages in the New Testament about how the law no longer applies to Gentiles. We can safely ignore parts of Old Testament law which were only applicable to ancient Hebrew culture. Reasoned study is needed to know when this is the case. A library of peer-reviewed theological journals can be found at many Christian seminaries, and would be a good source for further information.
I guess these were only part of the ". . ancient Hebrew culture. . " and they were not directed by God.
Then how does he presume to make an absolute statement that no limbs have ever regenerated if he has not empirically verified it to be true for all cases?mick wrote:
And that proves what? Has Mr Brain spoken to every amputee, dead or alive, ever and everywhere? Does he know all of them? How does he know what they pray for? How does he know that their prayers have not been answered?
He doesn't claim that, obviously.
Has Mr. Brain read all the medical journals ever written? And he is begging the question in his statement that we know God ignores the prayers of amputees. Furthermore, he is just asserting a limited personal opinion since he is basing it on his own limited investigation, since, like you admitted above, he has not spoken with all amputees. He follows that with an unjustified premise, that God would restore lost limbs in answer to prayer.his from Brain's site:
Quote:
No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing will happen. The legs will not regenerate. Prayer does not restore the severed limbs of amputees. You can read all the medical journals ever written -- there is no documented case of an amputated leg being restored spontaneously. And we know that God ignores the prayers of amputees through our own observations of the world around us. If God were answering the prayers of amputees to regenerate their lost limbs, we would be seeing amputated legs growing back every day.
Isn't that odd? Christian inspirational literature is full of thousands of stories like Jeanna's and Marilyn Hickey's. But God does not restore the legs of amputees. Whether you are a Christian or not, the situation here appears to be most peculiar.
Do you agree with the statements above in bold?
I am not "attacking" anything, honestly.Why do you bother to attack positions you do not understand?
I guess I don't see where I represented your words, but if I did or if I misunderstood you, please clarify for me. For example, I don't claim that you said "the laws were created by ancient Hebrew culture".Why must you misrepresent my words? The laws were given by God, but they were directed towards the pre-Messianic ancient Hebrew culture. I did not say that the laws were created by ancient Hebrew culture. The New Testament talks about this in several places (Romans discusses the issue extensively, for example) if you actually take the time to read the Bible for once. Theologians have also written much on the topic.
What did you mean when you said:mick wrote:I guess I don't see where I represented your words, but if I did or if I misunderstood you, please clarify for me. For example, I don't claim that you said "the laws were created by ancient Hebrew culture".
mick wrote: I guess these were only part of the ". . ancient Hebrew culture. . " and they were not directed by God.
Ill-fated attempt at sarcasm, I guess. Sorry.jerickson314 wrote: What did you mean when you said:
mick wrote: I guess these were only part of the ". . ancient Hebrew culture. . " and they were not directed by God.
Just for the record, I never even heard of the guy until about a week ago, so I am in no way trying for "vouch" for him. I'm just discussing what he wrote and what he seems to be saying.August wrote: Then how does he presume to make an absolute statement that no limbs have ever regenerated if he has not empirically verified it to be true for all cases?
I hope I answered some of them; I tried to. If not, ask away.I answered your questions, how about you answer mine?
So if you are not vouching for him, is he wrong?mick wrote:[
Just for the record, I never even heard of the guy until about a week ago, so I am in no way trying for "vouch" for him. I'm just discussing what he wrote and what he seems to be saying.
The point is that since he is making an absolute statement, the burden of proof is on him. His premise and conclusion is that since he's never seen a limb grow back, God does not exist. But his premise is flawed if he has not investigated every amputee ever, so how can his conclusion hold true?There's no doubt he makes a broad statement. I would actually be interested in his response if someone could or does produce an example of a case of spontaneous regeneration. Seems like his position is like throwing down the gauntlet. He apparently is challenging anyone to prove him wrong.
Again, I'm not vouching for him; don't know the guy. His conclusion is either true or false.August wrote: So if you are not vouching for him, is he wrong?
The point is that since he is making an absolute statement, the burden of proof is on him. His premise and conclusion is that since he's never seen a limb grow back, God does not exist. But his premise is flawed if he has not investigated every amputee ever, so how can his conclusion hold true?
I'm asking what you think. You said I should ask away. Surely you hold an opinion since you wanted to discuss it.mick wrote:
Again, I'm not vouching for him; don't know the guy. His conclusion is either true or false.
As for his investigative methods and his premise and conclusion, someone should ask him. Just noticed he's got a Forum on that site for Q&A.
The case of amputees is quite interesting, as the author points out. It would be difficult for the author to interview every amputee on earth, true. However, we can create a reasonable proxy for that. We can search all known medical journals, and we find that there are no documented cases of amputated legs spontaneously regenerating.August wrote:And that proves what? Has Mr Brain spoken to every amputee, dead or alive, ever and everywhere? Does he know all of them? How does he know what they pray for? How does he know that their prayers have not been answered?