Evidence for God from Science

I have a mother who is a Jehovah's Witness. I was raised into it from birth and it wasn't until I was about 12-13 when I got interested in things like science and reason (naturally, I found religion to be a bit silly). I didn't really talk about it until I was about 18 (I'm 20 now). She's had me speak to their Elders (priests), several "educated" members, and random JW's still drop by from time to time and we debate.

From personal experience, I can say they will outright ignore any outside information not published by Jehovah's Witnesses. Being raised one, I know they warn on a constant basis about listening to non-Jehovah's witnesses criticisms of the religion, or reading non-watchtower material, so I should have expected as much. So basically, a conversation with a Jehovah's witness is more one sided. They are taught of what to say to convert, not how to respond to difficult questions (these are rather to be ignored as they are made up by the devil).

This means flashing statistics, scientific evidence, or any type of study is immediately discredited on the basis that it is made by men influenced by the devil. (As an example, I was in a conversation with an Elder who is supposedly one of the most educated in town, and we got on the subject of homosexuality. He made the mistake of calling it unnatural, whereas I had to correct him and show him several studies which show homosexual animals. This easily triggered him into hostile mode "I don't know who makes this crap up but its obviously not Christians".

You can bring up their false prophecies, and they'll no doubt tell you they've changed as a religion and the bible says that would happen because it says "the light will get brighter" and so if anything that just makes their religion more true (I am not joking you, every one I have talked to has said exactly that). Catch them in a difficult question and they'll likely say they have to go look it up and get back with you, to which they never do. (Critical thinking is not their thing. They are taught to read the bible in a specific context and if they are confused to refer to JW literature or other members. Never to figure it out yourself, so to be safe if they don't know they will look for an answer in the religion, if it isn't there, you'll never get a response).

Having said that, they aren't too much worse than trying to reason with most other religious folk. Easily insulted, only recognize evidence that fits their preconceived views, etc.

aimforthehead wrote:Having said that, [Jehovah's Witnesses] aren't too much worse than trying to reason with most other religious folk. Easily insulted, only recognize evidence that fits their preconceived views, etc.

I know what you mean, above. I used to try to evangelize & reason with Watchtower and Mormon bodybags who would show up on my doorstep hoping to enlighten me. I quickly learned that they are impervious to reason. Now I just slam the door in their face.

You may be jumping to conclusions when you assume that ''religious folk'' in general are equally as numb-brained as your former bretheren. The truth is closer to this: Most people - theists & atheists alike - just don't care enough to think things through.

FL

have a mother who is a Jehovah's Witness. I was raised into it from birth and it wasn't until I was about 12-13 when I got interested in things like science and reason (naturally, I found religion to be a bit silly). I didn't really talk about it until I was about 18 (I'm 20 now). She's had me speak to their Elders (priests), several "educated" members, and random JW's still drop by from time to time and we debate.

From personal experience, I can say they will outright ignore any outside information not published by Jehovah's Witnesses. Being raised one, I know they warn on a constant basis about listening to non-Jehovah's witnesses criticisms of the religion, or reading non-watchtower material, so I should have expected as much. So basically, a conversation with a Jehovah's witness is more one sided. They are taught of what to say to convert, not how to respond to difficult questions (these are rather to be ignored as they are made up by the devil).

This means flashing statistics, scientific evidence, or any type of study is immediately discredited on the basis that it is made by men influenced by the devil. (As an example, I was in a conversation with an Elder who is supposedly one of the most educated in town, and we got on the subject of homosexuality. He made the mistake of calling it unnatural, whereas I had to correct him and show him several studies which show homosexual animals. This easily triggered him into hostile mode "I don't know who makes this crap up but its obviously not Christians".

You can bring up their false prophecies, and they'll no doubt tell you they've changed as a religion and the bible says that would happen because it says "the light will get brighter" and so if anything that just makes their religion more true (I am not joking you, every one I have talked to has said exactly that). Catch them in a difficult question and they'll likely say they have to go look it up and get back with you, to which they never do. (Critical thinking is not their thing. They are taught to read the bible in a specific context and if they are confused to refer to JW literature or other members. Never to figure it out yourself, so to be safe if they don't know they will look for an answer in the religion, if it isn't there, you'll never get a response).

Having said that, they aren't too much worse than trying to reason with most other religious folk. Easily insulted, only recognize evidence that fits their preconceived views, etc.

You said it all. Because of such people a lot of educated Christians are ridiculed and a lot of them stumble. By the way homo sexuality is natural from animals, is seriously something you can't prove. We do not know much about animal psychology. And plus, a tiger eats other animals, to the tiger that is natural. But we surely can't say killing an other human being and then eating them is natural. So support from animals is seriously not a good point to debate homosexuality.

By the way homo sexuality is natural from animals, is seriously something you can't prove.

Are you sure there isn't a big difference between educated Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_an ... l_behavior Go to the bottom there are dozens of citations. Chances are, you haven't bothered to look into any of them. Nor will you, as you like to protect yourself against information that challenges your preconceived notion of how the world works. (Prove me wrong.) Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFeXwKnCUNI

Also, explaining homosexuality is natural does not show why it is okay. It is specifically against the argument that homosexuality is unnatural.

I don't mean to offend, but I've ran out of patience with people who blindly cling to their ignorant beliefs, especially those who think they are so different from other religions.

You could say "take a look at these links and this video" instead of accusing neo of being insecure and personally attacking him.

aimforthehead » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:53 pm

By the way homo sexuality is natural from animals, is seriously something you can't prove.

Are you sure there isn't a big difference between educated Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_an ... l_behavior Go to the bottom there are dozens of citations. Chances are, you haven't bothered to look into any of them. Nor will you, as you like to protect yourself against information that challenges your preconceived notion of how the world works. (Prove me wrong.) Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFeXwKnCUNI

Also, explaining homosexuality is natural does not show why it is okay. It is specifically against the argument that homosexuality is unnatural.

I don't mean to offend, but I've ran out of patience with people who blindly cling to their ignorant beliefs, especially those who think they are so different from other religions.

My dear friend. Those references provide no evidence, just opinions, some theories. That's all. Would it be any different if I show you a book against homosexuality with a dozen references at the bottom, what would that prove?

I see that you are quite disgusted at my opinion, calling me an ignorant believer, but truly what does that prove, nothing. If i told you that as a teenager I experienced gay feelings but found nothing natural about it. would you listen then? Please tell me what will it take because if you disregard people on their opinion then I'm not sure what is the meaning of discussion, since you obviously do not think I am right to begin with. in such a case, no matter what I say or do, you will simply discredit as ignorant bias. I would have to say that is unfair. Homosexuality is not natural, I stand by it, because there is no ample proof to suggest other wise. but every theory has a critic so I am fair game. You took out a single line from my post, what about the rest of it. did that make any sense to you?

about Jw's, anyone who is not open to listening or un-biased analysis is to some extent like an uneducated person. Jw's just have a higher number of it.

You could say "take a look at these links and this video" instead of accusing neo of being insecure and personally attacking him.

Exactly but I don't mind, he is new here.

Wtf? There's a video of two male animals having sex and you're saying "No. Gay animals don't exist"
I came to this site because I figured Christians who try to mix science into their religion were a little more intelligent and reasonable than the fundamentalists. This is disappointing

If i told you that as a teenager I experienced gay feelings but found nothing natural about it.

No. You would in fact still be mistaken.

Back on the subject.

because there is no ample proof to suggest other wise

What would count as proof, if not hundreds (thousands, actually) of studies done on homosexual animals all coming to the same conclusion? Not to mention video proof...Afraid it doesn't get any proofier than that buddy. This is one of those things that you can't really intelligently refuse to accept.

And yes, I am new here. I think I'm about to leave to. I need to join a real science forum, preferably with college students who know what they are talking about. I don't have the patience for this.

We have a thread about animal homosexuality, it is labeled "homosexuality" go look at that many more answers there about the topic as animal homosexuality perked my mind as well.

Here is a great quote for you "rudeness is the weak mans interpretation as strength".
Right now you are being extremely rude to neo and all Christians on this site by insulting our intelligence, while you may not be a Christian, try to use some Christian kindness when posting.


And we do not in any way "hate" homosexuals, we disagree with it as it conflicts with our belief system, if you want to go carry on about hateful and unintelligent Christians go to WBC's website.

If you wish to entertain yourself with an INTELLIGENT debate of homosexuality, here is the thread link

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 10&t=36005

Sorry if I'm being rude, I'm much more patient in an actual conversation. But everywhere I go, religious people all say the same things...it's discouraging to realize people will flat out deny evidence to support their own beliefs. Not just people, but well over half of the planet. It's reasonable to assume it's a natural response in the wake of something that challenges our worldview, but from an outsiders perspective, it's simply mind boggling.

I have read through those topics, I'm afraid I found the same level of reason as I was expecting from anyone who has no interested in understanding biology. (The debate you linked me was between Christians about the interpretations of the bible. Hardly interesting to someone who is more interested in reality and science =/)

The issue is that you (indirectly) are looking at the world with the assumption that it fits your preconceived beliefs. Surely you can understand my frustration in being very interested in science, and finding a website with the word in the title, and realizing no one here is really into science, but just religion, like everywhere else. You all seem like nice people, so I do feel bad for being insulting, it's really not like me.

I'm assuming most people here are in high school (I hope, anyway), so I'm hoping that is the reason people are making so many immature misunderstandings and denials. After you guys take some actual science and logic courses, you'll come to realize.

^

no i'm am literally the only one here under 18, and the first 2 pages of that debate are all about animal homosexuality.

Sorry if I'm being rude, I'm much more patient in an actual conversation. But everywhere I go, religious people all say the same things...it's discouraging to realize people will flat out deny evidence to support their own beliefs. Not just people, but well over half of the planet. It's reasonable to assume it's a natural response in the wake of something that challenges our worldview, but from an outsiders perspective, it's simply mind boggling.

Sorry If I am being rude but all I have seen in atheists is a literal denying of logic and reason which contradicts their preconceived believes. Something of which you are trying to be the prime example. I mean seriously, I do not care for your insults. I think you have been chased by some real stubborn Jw's(or whatever) all your life which has resulted in your so much aggressive behavior. I can see that. As for for your idea, there are people from every walk of life, not just high school. And about immature misunderstandings and denials. i will simply say you do not know what you are talking about, seriously, you have no idea of God or religion, you have a distorted view, because of some distorted people and that is what is being projected here.

I did not say there aren't gay animals, I said whether there are or not, does not really support the idea of it being natural. Are you so naive to not understand that. I mean a female mantis eats its own partner right after they mate. I mean thats their nature, you surely can't project it on humans, that is illogical and flawed and by far you are arguing on this. For that to hold true you would have to explain why animal nature should equate or resemble human nature. In what cases should it over ride it.

so I'm hoping that is the reason people are making so many immature misunderstandings and denials. After you guys take some actual science and logic courses, you'll come to realize.

By the way for all you "be scientific" ranting, what exactly are your qualifications in science? what ph.d have you done huh, what makes your reasoning valid and not others? please elaborate, you would have to have a good answer. I mean who died and made you an authority on science?

Also it is illogical to think that other peoples beliefs are illogical because it doesn't make sense to you.

By the way for all you "be scientific" ranting, what exactly are your qualifications in science?

I'm a student majoring in Computer science.

Also it is illogical to think that other peoples beliefs are illogical because it doesn't make sense to you.

I actually find them to be a bit simple-minded.

Sorry If I am being rude but all I have seen in atheists is a literal denying of logic and reason which contradicts their preconceived believes.

Atheists do not necessarily believe in anything. It is the default position of not taking the affirmative of a belief in god.
To the rest of your post, you're more than welcome to teach me why I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure all you kept repeating was that I was wrong.

I did not say there aren't gay animals, I said whether there are or not, does not really support the idea of it being natural.

Unnatural things do not occur in nature. If they did, they wouldn't be unnatural.
How old are you?

By the way for all you "be scientific" ranting, what exactly are your qualifications in science?

I'm a student majoring in Computer science.

Pretty scientific

Also it is illogical to think that other peoples beliefs are illogical because it doesn't make sense to you.

I actually find them to be a bit simple-minded.

That is illogical.

Atheists do not necessarily believe in anything. It is the default position of not taking the affirmative of a belief in god.
To the rest of your post, you're more than welcome to teach me why I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure all you kept repeating was that I was wrong.

Same old story. You are more than welcome to teach us why we are wrong. The onus is on you here but you clearly avoid questions that require an answer not supporting your idea.

Unnatural things do not occur in nature. If they did, they wouldn't be unnatural.

Circular reasoning, it is not so cut and dry. Nature doesn't always dictate behavior. If so then sentient beings are programmed.

How old are you?

Irrelevant