Evidence for God from Science

He was saving the children from future corruption (they would have been tainted by their families/environment).

Yes, but what was made of them in the afterlife?

Mystical wrote:Seems to me that #6 and #9 support salvation for infants, as well as the idea of accountability.

First, I'm obviously not an Arminian, and #6 is easily refuted by Proverbs 16:4 and Romans 9:20-23 (directly) as well as the numerous passages which teach the Doctrine of Unconditional Election (indirectly). And Fortigurn, if you don't like my transations of these scriptures, please provide the correct translation, (and footnotes from a study bible don't count. What does the verse say?)

As for #9, you'd better read it again a little more closely.

"All the children of believers are sanctified in Christ; so that not one of them perishes who departs out of this life prior to the use of reason. But no children of believers who depart out of this life in their infancy and before they have in their own persons committed any sin, are on any account to be reckoned in the number of the reprobate! So as that neither the sacred laver of baptism is, nor are the prayers of the Church, by any means capable of profiting them to salvation."

Where is the "age of accountability"?

Mystical wrote:If children go to hell (which I don't believe), wouldn't that mean that the mentally handicapped and maybe mentally ill individuals, and brain trauma victims (who didn't accept Christ before their injuries) go to hell, too?

Yes. What do the scriptures say?

John 3:3
"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”"

This isn't hard to understand. We are all "comdemned already", and will spend eternity in Hell unless God Himself intervenes and gives us a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26).

Besides, I know many mentally handicapped people who are born again. Are you suggesting that they are wasting their time serving God, since you believe that they are already guaranteed heaven?

I realize that this idea is offensive to many. They begin with the idea of man's goodness, and that God somehow owes man salvation due to that goodness. The fact is that man is wicked right from birth (and even before). God is not beholding to man for anything. He does not owe us salvation. This is why it is a gift.

OK Fortigurn, I will now deal with your “totally irrelevant” scriptures.

Fortigurn wrote: Luke 12:
48 But the one who did not know his master's will and did things worthy of punishment will receive a light beating. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required, and from the one who has been entrusted with much, even more will be asked.

Where does it say that did not know his master's will was not accountable? He was still punished. I agree that those who do know will be punished to a greater degree than those who don't, but they will all still suffer everlasting punishment.

Fortigurn wrote: John 12:
48 The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has a judge; the word I have spoken will judge him at the last day.

That would be all of us who aren't born again.

Fortigurn wrote: Acts 17:
30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,
31 because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Where does it say that they are not accountable for their sins? While God is patient and slow to anger, all will stand before Him and give account.

Fortigurn wrote: Romans 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

You just refuted the “age of accountability” with this scripture.

Fortigurn wrote: Romans 3:
20 For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

And again. Where does is say that you must know the law in order to be held accountable?

Fortigurn wrote: Romans 4:
15 For the law brings wrath, because where there is no law there is no transgression either.

Talk about taking a verse out of context. The law is “worldwide”. Yes, the gentiles in the Old Covenant were bound by the law as well. (Leviticus 18:26, 24:22). God's Law in effect before Moses (Genesis 4:8-12, Genesis 19:4-5, 23-25, Genesis 19:30-38). This is why God judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their “lawless deeds” (2 Peter 2:6-8). There is no place on this earth where “there is no law”. Since those who never read a Bible can sin, and “sin is lawlessness”(1 John 3:4), then they are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20). As Christians, we are no longer under the law as a curse, but the law is still valid “until heaven and earth pass away” (Matthew 5:17-18).

Fortigurn wrote: Romans 5:
12 So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned—
13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin {Greek 'sin is not reckoned'} when there is no law.

See above.

Fortigurn wrote: 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! Certainly, I would not have known sin except through the law. For indeed I would not have known what it means to desire something belonging to someone else if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”

Nothing here whatsoever about accountability. Paul reiterates the necessity of the law in determining what sin is, but does say anything about not being accountable due to the lack of knowledge.

Fortigurn wrote: Ephesians 4:
18 They are darkened in their understanding, being alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts.

And where does it say they are not accountable?

Fortigurn wrote: 1 Timothy 1:
12 I am grateful to the one who has strengthened me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me faithful in putting me into ministry,
13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor, and an arrogant man. But I was treated with mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief,
14 and our Lord's grace was abundant, bringing faith and love in Christ Jesus.

As a Christian, Paul was given mercy. Pharoah wasn't. (By the way, Paul was a Jew who knew the law better than most Christians, so you just contradicted every argument you gave above.)

Fortigurn wrote: 17 So whoever knows what is good to do and does not do it is guilty of sin.

Where is the necessity of knowledge of sin for accountability?

puritan lad wrote:OK Fortigurn, I will now deal with your “totally irrelevant” scriptures.

Fortigurn wrote: Luke 12:
48 But the one who did not know his master's will and did things worthy of punishment will receive a light beating. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required, and from the one who has been entrusted with much, even more will be asked.

Where does it say that did not know his master's will was not accountable? He was still punished. I agree that those who do know will be punished to a greater degree than those who don't, but they will all still suffer everlasting punishment.

Can you explain how two people can experience 'everlating punishment', and one of them experiences greater punishment than the other?

Fortigurn wrote: John 12:
48 The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has a judge; the word I have spoken will judge him at the last day.

That would be all of us who aren't born again.

And on what basis are they judged? Light - knowledge of the word.

Fortigurn wrote: Acts 17:
30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,
31 because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Where does it say that they are not accountable for their sins? While God is patient and slow to anger, all will stand before Him and give account.

It says right there that God overlooked such times of ignorance. Men were not held accountable. Why? Because of their ignorance. But now God commands men to repent. Those who hear that command and disregard it will be judged accordingly. But those who don't hear it will not be judged.

Fortigurn wrote: Romans 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

You just refuted the “age of accountability” with this scripture.

You keep forgetting that I do not believe in the 'age of accountability'. No answer for this one then.

Fortigurn wrote: Romans 3:
20 For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

And again. Where does is say that you must know the law in order to be held accountable?

It says right there that the knowledge of sin comes through the law. Without knowledge of sin, we remain ignorant, and while we remain ignorant we remain unjudged (as other passages I quoted state).

Fortigurn wrote: Romans 4:
15 For the law brings wrath, because where there is no law there is no transgression either.

Talk about taking a verse out of context. The law is “worldwide”.

Only when they knew about it.

Yes, the gentiles in the Old Covenant were bound by the law as well. (Leviticus 18:26, 24:22).

Anyone who is in covenant relationship with God is obviously bound by His law.

God's Law in effect before Moses (Genesis 4:8-12, Genesis 19:4-5, 23-25, Genesis 19:30-38). This is why God judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their “lawless deeds” (2 Peter 2:6-8).

All of these knew of God's law.

There is no place on this earth where “there is no law”. Since those who never read a Bible can sin, and “sin is lawlessness”(1 John 3:4), then they are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

The Bible passages I have quoted say otherwise. You assume that all are held guilty of the law even if they don't know it, but you don't provide any passages of Scripture which say this.

As Christians, we are no longer under the law as a curse, but the law is still valid “until heaven and earth pass away” (Matthew 5:17-18).

Do you mean 'the law' as in the law of God generally, or 'the Law' as in the Law of Moses?

Fortigurn wrote: Romans 5:
12 So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned—
13 for bore the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin {Greek 'sin is not reckoned'} when there is no law.

See above.

Ok, so you didn't deal with this one either - there is no accounting for sin {Greek 'sin is not reckoned'} when there is no law.

Fortigurn wrote: 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! Certainly, I would not have known sin except through the law. For indeed I would not have known what it means to desire something belonging to someone else if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”

Nothing here whatsoever about accountability. Paul reiterates the necessity of the law in determining what sin is, but does say anything about not being accountable due to the lack of knowledge.

Sorry, it says right there that the knowlege of sin comes with knowledge of the law. No one is judged according to a law they never knew.

Fortigurn wrote: Ephesians 4:
18 They are darkened in their understanding, being alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts.

And where does it say they are not accountable?

You're missing my point. It says that they are alienated from God on account of ignorance, not on account of sin. We can only be alienated by God through either ignorance or sin.

The former can only apply to those who are not enlightened by the law of God. They are not held guilty of breaking a law they never knew, but they are counted as alienated, and will not rise.

The latter can only apply to those who knew the law of God, and forsook it. They are accountable for breaking a law they knew, and they will rise and be judged accordingly.

Fortigurn wrote: 1 Timothy 1:
12 I am grateful to the one who has strengthened me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me faithful in putting me into ministry,
13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor, and an arrogant man. But I was treated with mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief,
14 and our Lord's grace was abundant, bringing faith and love in Christ Jesus.

As a Christian, Paul was given mercy. Pharoah wasn't.

This doesn't say that Paul was forgiven because he was a Christian (and he couldn't have become a Christian without being forgiven, so that's an irrelevant point). It says that he was forgiven because he was ignorant.

(By the way, Paul was a Jew who knew the law better than most Christians, so you just contradicted every argument you gave above.)

I'm not contradicting anything. Paul was certainly accountable to the Law. I am not denying that. But he was forgiven his persecution of the disciples of Christ, because he was in genuine ignorance of God's commandment through those disciples.

Fortigurn wrote: 17 So whoever knows what is good to do and does not do it is guilty of sin.

Where is the necessity of knowledge of sin for accountability?

What that passage says is that the determinng factor for being accountable for sin, is knowledge.

Fortigurn,

Your response to Romans 3:19 was understandable, because you cannot deal with it.

“Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God.”

There is nothing in any of your scriptures that suggest that someone is not held accountable due to ignorance. Why did God hate Esau before he was born, not having done any good or evil? There are two groups of people at judgment. There is wheat and there are tares. There are His servants, and there are servants of the evil one. All of those who are unregenerate are ignorant, unable to receive the things of God (1 Cor. 2:14), regardless of knowledge. Anyone who does not love Jesus is not a child of God and is of their father the Devil. (John 8:42-44). The Pharisees were ignorant as well. Jesus plainly told His disciples, “it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” (Matthew 13:11). Did this ignorance mean that the Pharisees weren't accountable for their actions? What did Jesus ask them? “How can you escape the condemnation of hell?” (Matthew 23:33) There is no third group of ignorant people who get in to heaven because of ignorance. This is mere wishful thinking, a product of a modern “feel-good” gospel replete with warm Jesus fuzzies. Even sins of ignorance require a sacrifice (Leviticus 5:18, Ezekiel 45:20, Hebrews 9:7). Lewdness and uncleanness caused by ignorance alienates one from God (Eph. 4:17-19)

Paul was saved because he was a chosen vessel (Acts 9:15).

The Bible is clear that there are degrees of punishment in Hell, but those who are ignorant are without excuse. They may not suffer as much as a Pharisee, but they will suffer for eternity. (See James 3:1).

Even if your questionable interpretation of Acts 17:30 were valid concerning the ignorance of Old Testament gentiles (which it is not), the end of this verse shows that this would no longer be the case.

The Bible passages I have quoted say otherwise. You assume that all are held guilty of the law even if they don't know it, but you don't provide any passages of Scripture which say this.

Romans 1:18-21
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.”

All men are accountable to God at all times. Those who have never heard the gospel are without excuse. Those who do not accept Christ reject Him. There is no middle ground. Heaven is for Christians only. Jesus could not have made this any clearer. John 3:3 settles this issue. No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born of the Spirit, period. (and that include cultists who are equally as ignorant).

PuritanLad:

First, I'm obviously not an Arminian...

I never said you were.

...and #6 is easily refuted by...

If it was easily refuted, millions still wouldn't be having this argument.

As for #9, you'd better read it again a little more closely.

Eeek! What will happen if I don't read it again a little more closely?!

Where is the "age of accountability"?

Maybe you better read it again a little more closely. The "use of reason" and the idea that a distinction is made before and after this period suggests that there is an age of accountability.

Besides, I know many handicapped people who are born again.

Funny. I don't know any that are. I also know someone who is mentally ill who will never understand the idea of God or salvation. In fact, I know some people on this board who don't understand salvation! I also don't know any babies who understand who Jesus is, maybe that's why most churches don't baptize children...really pointless. PuritanLad, maybe you better read the two articles I cited a little more closely.

I realize that this idea is offensive to many. They begin with the idea of man's goodness...

Actually, I begin with the idea of God's goodness and Jesus' great love. Neither tells me that God allows the mentally handicapped, brain injured, or children to perish. He wants us all. I know that must be offensive to those who wish to set themselves apart and depend on believing that they are favored by God. Don't fool yourself, the bitterness/anger which leaks through your words on this site alone lead me to fear for you. I am going to pray for you, PL.

God Bless.

Mystical wrote:Actually, I begin with the idea of God's goodness and Jesus' great love. Neither tells me that God allows the mentally handicapped, brain injured, or children to perish. He wants us all. I know that must be offensive to those who wish to set themselves apart and depend on believing that they are favored by God. Don't fool yourself, the bitterness/anger which leaks through your words on this site alone lead me to fear for you. I am going to pray for you, PL. God Bless.

No bitterness or anger here Mystical. Just being true the Word, which you obviously have a problem with. John 3:3 settles the issue.

In any case, I appreciate your prayers. :)

PL:

Denial won't save you, you know? "Obviously," and "you'd better" are angry, threatening words/phrases. Freudian slips?:

...you obviously have a problem with.

Sounds judgemental and angry to me.

John 3:3 settles the issue.

No it doesn't.

Mystical wrote:PL:

Denial won't save you, you know? "Obviously," and "you'd better" are angry, threatening words/phrases. Freudian slips?:

...you obviously have a problem with.

Sounds judgemental and angry to me.

John 3:3 settles the issue.

No it doesn't.

Mystical,

My apologies. If you took these words as a threat, they certainly were not meant to be so.

Now back to the issue at hand, I would like for someone to explain "accountability" to me in the light of John 3:3.

No problem.

I would like for someone to explain...

Remember we don't always get what we want. What if no one can explain it in light of John 3:3, still don't think it would settle much. Can you explain it in light of John 3:3 (even though you don't believe it?)? Might be neat to try. I'll be back in a while. I'll see if I can say anything of value.

(Mystical, of course your more than welcome to use anything you like. What's mine is yours. )

All men are accountable to God at all times. Those who have never heard the gospel are without excuse. Those who do not accept Christ reject Him. There is no middle ground. Heaven is for Christians only. Jesus could not have made this any clearer. John 3:3 settles this issue. No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born of the Spirit, period. (and that include cultists who are equally as ignorant).

John 3:3 has the appearance of settling the issue. But I also keep thinking to other things that Jesus said. For instance, when the wealthy young man sorrowfully went away after Jesus asked him to give all his riches to the poor, and said to his apostles that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of God. Jewish religious thought of the day associated prosperity with God's favor, and it shocked the apostles into asking, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

All things are possible! "Jesus could not have made this any clearer." Indeed!

I wonder about the interpretation of John 3:3. "No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Is the kingdom of God the same as heaven? Jesus also said that kingdom is within. Being born of the spirit, is that the equivalent of being a convert to Christianity? At the time that Jesus spoke, Christianity didn't exist after all. And here is another confounding statement that Jesus could not have made any clearer. An expert in the law stood up to ask him, "Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus asked how he read the law, and the expert answered, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

I would like for someone to explain accountability to me in the light of John 3:3.

I think Matthew 19:13-15 tells us how Jesus feels about children. Heaven is theirs.

When Jesus came to preach, he came to address and save adults. His audiences were mostly adults. He didn't preach to children, to animals, to the trees. Why, because salvation didn't pertain to them. Specifically children--they are already saved.

However, if you prohibit a child from questioning or seeking Jesus, you might eventually produce an adult who has no desire to learn about him (and perhaps be saved as a result) or who is against him.

"Accoutability" is the time at which a child masters the understanding needed for salvation and is then able to be held responsible for their sins. At this time, they must be born again (once again become like children--unsoiled and sanctified in God's eyes) in order to be granted salvation. Hence, Matthew 18:3

P.S.

When Infants Die, Do They Go To Heaven?

Do Mentally-Ill People Go To Heaven?

Children--Do They God to Heaven?

Do Babies Go To Heaven?