Evidence for God from Science

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Jbuza wrote:IT might to a casual viewing seem that this thread is off topic, but I think it is a very natural extension of the original question.

I see that Lordship salvation is closely aligned with the view that one must seek to perfectly keep the law, Whereas,

I see Free Grace Salvation as the view that we are freed from the Law and adopted into the family of God, and as sons of God we should seek to honour him and Love one another, as Jesus commanded.

IMHO - I do not view that making Jesus Lord is legelistic rather I find it liberating from the OT law so we can learn to obey the law of God - loving God and our neighbors - etc...

When we stumble - Our Lord forgives us and cleans us up as I John chapter one tells us. To me, only the Lordship of Jesus Christ can do that act of grace. We cannot.

I maybe misunderstanding the topic a little bit too -

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Here's the question that is absolutely central to the Lordship vs. Free Grace debate:

Is saving faith "mere trust" or is it "trust that necessarily produces commitment" (or obedience)? Or, we could phrase it this way: "Does 'genuine faith' necessarily produce a commited life?"

Jac3510 wrote:Here's the question that is absolutely central to the Lordship vs. Free Grace debate:

Is saving faith "mere trust" or is it "trust that necessarily produces commitment" (or obedience)? Or, we could phrase it this way: "Does 'genuine faith' necessarily produce a commited life?"

I think you're asking if faith without works is dead.

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Jbuza wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:Here's the question that is absolutely central to the Lordship vs. Free Grace debate:

Is saving faith "mere trust" or is it "trust that necessarily produces commitment" (or obedience)? Or, we could phrase it this way: "Does 'genuine faith' necessarily produce a commited life?"

Then the question becomes What is the evidence of a committed life?

The fruits of the Spirit.

Does faith in Jesus produce a commitment to the Law?

It produces a commitment to the perfect law of liberty, and the commandments of God and Christ.

Fortigurn wrote:I think you're asking if faith without works is dead.

No, I'm really not. It's obvious that faith without works is dead, because the Bible says so. We can, of course, ask in what sense this is true, but that it IS true isn't up for debate.

I am asking what saving faith is--I know what I believe on it, as explained in the first post. If you hold that saving faith is a "faith that works", you are saying that a faith that "doesn't work" (and appealing to James 2, "a dead faith") doesn't save. Therefore, a Lordship salvationist would agree with the statement: "Where there is no works, there is no salvation."

Granted, we would all agree that works do not produce salvation, but the Lordship salvationist would argue that works are a necessary result of salvation. Therefore, a lack of works is an indicator--if not a proof--of a lack of salvation.

If, on the other hand, saving faith is "mere belief", that is, simple trust that Jesus Christ can and will save because He said He would, then it is obvious that no commitment is necessary whatsoever. Works may or may not result. Repentance from sin has nothing to do with actual salvation. Repentance, in this scheme, is only necessary for salvation proper in the sense of a change of mind. That is, we repent from thinking we can save ourselves and put our trust in Christ.

That would be my position.

Jbuza wrote:Then the question becomes What is the evidence of a committed life? I believe that faith saves and Love produces works. I do not think a=works are the keeping of the Law, but things we do that honor God, and Charity and Love we give in the name of Jesus.

Does faith in Jesus produce a commitment to the Law?

I believe a committed life is a requirement of discipleship--NOT OF SALVATION. In that scheme, I can agree that faith saves and love produces works, because we can agree that putting faith in Christ is not the same as loving Him.

Does faith produce a commitment to the Law? No. Besides all this, I wonder how you mean "Law" anyway . . . if you mean the Mosaic Law, I would reject the entire notion. Christians are under only one law, which is the Law of Liberty. We are NOT under the OT law, including the Ten Commandments.

Discipleship (love), as Fortigurn, will produce the fruit of the Spirit, which entails a commitment to the Law of Liberty--that is, the Law of God which is to love one another and to love God. It's really all that simple . . .

In that scheme, I can agree that faith saves and love produces works, because we can agree that putting faith in Christ is not the same as loving Him.

I don't agree with that. We often take a much too flippant approach to faith. Ultimately, what we are judged on by God is our faith, and that has multiple components, including love. Other components include belief, obedience, knowledge and dependence.

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August and JB:

First, again, I say that it is possible to have faith without having love. It is also possible to have love without faith. For example, I have faith (trust) my government when I file my income tax returns, but I certainly don't love that government (for the record, I do love America . . . I just see government as a necessary evil). On the flip side, I deeply love my ex-fiancee, even today, but I have absolutely no faith in her.

In the same way, it is possible to have faith in Jesus' promise (trust Him), and yet not love Him. Also, we can love Him and serve Him and yet never fully trust Him either!

But, suppose that we join the two, as you two would insist we do . . . suppose it is true that a genuine faith must produce love, commitment, and thus good works. It is then obvious that where there is no love, commitment, or works, then there is also no faith--or, at least, it is an indicator that there is no faith. This begs a question: how much work must I do, or how much love must I have, to be assured that my faith is genuine?

In the end, your doctrine does two VERY dangerous things: first, it denies a person their assurance of salvation, because at any time I can lose my zeal for God or backslide into sin. Thus, I am forced to question myself, for where there is no works/love, it is possible there is no faith.

Secondly, the insistance that a genuine faith always produces, at least in the end, good works, commitment, a life that bears fruit, etc., gives a person a false sense of security. They come to believe that they cannot fall away from the faith, and thus, they let down their guard, which is exactly the opposite of what the Bible says.

I hold to sola fide--faith alone. Saving faith is "mere belief." This is not "mere recognition of facts," but the placing of one's hope in Jesus' promise of eternal life based on His person and work. Mere belief . . . that simple. "For whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but has eternal life."

Jac3510 wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:I think you're asking if faith without works is dead.

No, I'm really not. It's obvious that faith without works is dead, because the Bible says so. We can, of course, ask in what sense this is true, but that it IS true isn't up for debate.

I am asking what saving faith is--I know what I believe on it, as explained in the first post. If you hold that saving faith is a "faith that works", you are saying that a faith that "doesn't work" (and appealing to James 2, "a dead faith") doesn't save.

Yes that's correct. That is what I am saying.

Therefore, a Lordship salvationist would agree with the statement: "Where there is no works, there is no salvation."

Granted, we would all agree that works do not produce salvation, but the Lordship salvationist would argue that works are a necessary result of salvation. Therefore, a lack of works is an indicator--if not a proof--of a lack of salvation.

Yes, I do actually agree with that:

Matthew 7:
15 “Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves.
16 You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered from thorns or figs from thistles, are they?
17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit
18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 So then, you will recognize them by their fruit.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of heaven—only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

24 “Everyone who hears these words of mine and does them is like a wise man who built his house on rock.

There's more where those came from.

If, on the other hand, saving faith is "mere belief", that is, simple trust that Jesus Christ can and will save because He said He would, then it is obvious that no commitment is necessary whatsoever. Works may or may not result. Repentance from sin has nothing to do with actual salvation. Repentance, in this scheme, is only necessary for salvation proper in the sense of a change of mind. That is, we repent from thinking we can save ourselves and put our trust in Christ.

That would be my position.

That is a radical position indeed, especially the idea that 'Repentance from sin has nothing to do with actual salvation':

Ezekiel 33:
11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Zechariah 1:
4Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto Me, saith the LORD.

Luke 13:
2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

Acts 3:
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Revelation 2:
5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Jbuza wrote:

August wrote:

In that scheme, I can agree that faith saves and love produces works, because we can agree that putting faith in Christ is not the same as loving Him.

I don't agree with that. We often take a much too flippant approach to faith. Ultimately, what we are judged on by God is our faith, and that has multiple components, including love. Other components include belief, obedience, knowledge and dependence.

I agree. God judgeth by everything done in our bodies wether it is good or bad. Ultimatley I agree we must have faith that Jesus is who he says he is, and that God raised him from the dead.

It seems like if that is true it must have some impact on causing Glory to God and showing love and chriaty in the name of Jesus.

And aren't those the works that will survive a fiery trial and result in our crowns? At the very minimum we must show the work of open identification with Jesus Christ.

I agree 100%. Well put, especially the part I have placed in bold.

Jac3510 wrote:August and JB:

First, again, I say that it is possible to have faith without having love. It is also possible to have love without faith. For example, I have faith (trust) my government when I file my income tax returns, but I certainly don't love that government (for the record, I do love America . . . I just see government as a necessary evil). On the flip side, I deeply love my ex-fiancee, even today, but I have absolutely no faith in her.

In the same way, it is possible to have faith in Jesus' promise (trust Him), and yet not love Him. Also, we can love Him and serve Him and yet never fully trust Him either!

But, suppose that we join the two, as you two would insist we do . . . suppose it is true that a genuine faith must produce love, commitment, and thus good works. It is then obvious that where there is no love, commitment, or works, then there is also no faith--or, at least, it is an indicator that there is no faith. This begs a question: how much work must I do, or how much love must I have, to be assured that my faith is genuine?

In the end, your doctrine does two VERY dangerous things: first, it denies a person their assurance of salvation, because at any time I can lose my zeal for God or backslide into sin. Thus, I am forced to question myself, for where there is no works/love, it is possible there is no faith.

Secondly, the insistance that a genuine faith always produces, at least in the end, good works, commitment, a life that bears fruit, etc., gives a person a false sense of security. They come to believe that they cannot fall away from the faith, and thus, they let down their guard, which is exactly the opposite of what the Bible says.

I hold to sola fide--faith alone. Saving faith is "mere belief." This is not "mere recognition of facts," but the placing of one's hope in Jesus' promise of eternal life based on His person and work. Mere belief . . . that simple. "For whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but has eternal life."

I still disagree. You seem to want to misconstrue what I said, first works and then salvation. That is not what I said. If you believe in faith alone, that's good, so do I. What we disagree on is what faith really means.

We can agree that it does not merely mean belief. Satan also believes in Christ, yet he is not saved. The you start adding to belief, and you add trust. That's right, we have to trust as part of our faith. But be trusting, you are also being obedient, since we are instructed to trust God, like Abraham did. (Rom 4, off the top of my head) So if we are to be obedient in respect of trust, why should we not be obedient in other areas of our faith? The great commandments clearly are that we should love God and our fellow man, why is obedience to that not part of a saving faith?

Your examples of government and your fiancee don't work for me, neither one can reasonably be compared with a saving faith in a loving God. The whole reason for Jesus dying for our sins is exactly what you said, we can never love, trust or do enough good deeds to be saved. But we also believe that when we are saved, we are born again, a new creature through the power of God, and that new creature reflects the characteristics of the family of God. So while there is no standard by which deeds or works show salvation, that to me is a completely false dilemma. Deeds and works are done because we are part of God's family, and we do His will because we love Him, not to boast of our measure of salvation.

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