Evidence for God from Science

Radio is free because the artists and radio personnel get paid through advertisements and because it's impossible to control radio waves to only allow them to work for paid subscribers.

As for copying music, yes, it's wrong. You are stealing. Every song you download is another copy of the song that the artists and producers aren't getting paid for. It violates the copyright license, and as Christians we are to obey the laws of the land except where they contradict God's law. God never mentioned copyright law, so it's safe to say that we should obey any and every copyright law no matter how ridiculous it may sound.

With a CD, you are paying for the right to use <B>one</B> copy of said music, with the permission to make <B>one</B> backup copy for <B>personal use only.</B> It is alright to listen to it with friends because only one copy is being used(the amount of users allowed to use the copy, as long as it is only one copy being used, at the same time isn't limited in this way, though you aren't allowed to use music without permission for certain types of public displays).

It is not okay to copy the music and distribute it to people, whether via computer file or burned CD. Why? Because you only paid for the right to use a single copy, and now there are multiple copies floating around(that do not fall under the one single copy you are allowed to have for personal backup purposes).

That's the way intellectual property rights work. Software, movies, music, books, whatever. When you buy the product, the basic license only allows you to have one copy and one personal backup copy(that you must make yourself, by the way). You can play a CD at a party, but you can't have multiple copies floating around. You and a friend can sit together to read a book, but you can't photocopy the book for your friend to read away from the copy you bought. You can lie to yourself all you want, but you can't justify theft.

As for the apple thing -- it would only be okay to magically copy someone's apple if you had his permission to do so. It's his apple; therefore it's his right to choose whether he wants it copied or not. Whether he wants to charge a small fee to allow you to copy it. Or whatever. Doing anything with his apple without his permission would be wrong.

The implications of the law you gave are mostly right, but the reasons you gave are flawed. (As I said in an earlier post I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice).

LittleShepherd wrote:As for copying music, yes, it's wrong. You are stealing. Every song you download is another copy of the song that the artists and producers aren't getting paid for. It violates the copyright license, and as Christians we are to obey the laws of the land except where they contradict God's law. God never mentioned copyright law, so it's safe to say that we should obey any and every copyright law no matter how ridiculous it may sound.

Except of course when the artists and producers explicitly give a more generous copyright license. But 99% of the time you are right. (And the fact that we should always obey the law remains true in all cases).

And you don't have a copyright "license" to most music, as I will mention later. You just have a copy which is protected by copyright law.

LittleShepherd wrote:With a CD, you are paying for the right to use <B>one</B> copy of said music, with the permission to make <B>one</B> backup copy for <B>personal use only.</B> It is alright to listen to it with friends because only one copy is being used(the amount of users allowed to use the copy, as long as it is only one copy being used, at the same time isn't limited in this way, though you aren't allowed to use music without permission for certain types of public displays).

You are confusing copyright law with computer software licenses. Copyright law allows no copying at all, except under the doctrines of "fair use" and "first sale". There are no set rules for "fair use", and courts are supposed to interpret it on a case-by-case basis. But generally, making as many copies for your own personal use as you like is fair use. Giving copies to friends is generally not. (Quoting copyrighted works in a research paper is in fact only allowed due to fair use.) Use is not covered by copyright law at all. Public performance and display are handled separately from copying but are covered under copyright law. "First sale" means that you can give your all your copies (but not just some of them) to someone else.

Making copies of anything copy-protected (e.g. DRM, CSS protection on DVDs, etc.) is not fair use. The recent Digital Millenium Copyright Act established this. Before the passage of the DMCA copy protection had no effect on fair use.

Computer software licenses add restrictions not present in copyright law. They can do this because clicking "I Accept" is legally equivalent to signing paperwork. The "no copies beyond your one backup" is a near universal restriction added in most licenses.

LittleShepherd wrote:It is not okay to copy the music and distribute it to people, whether via computer file or burned CD. Why? Because you only paid for the right to use a single copy, and now there are multiple copies floating around(that do not fall under the one single copy you are allowed to have for personal backup purposes).

This is generally right, though not due to the "multiple copies" issue but rather due to the fact that this isn't "fair use". If we were talking computer software, this is correct.

LittleShepherd wrote:That's the way intellectual property rights work. Software, movies, music, books, whatever. When you buy the product, the basic license only allows you to have one copy and one personal backup copy(that you must make yourself, by the way). You can play a CD at a party, but you can't have multiple copies floating around. You and a friend can sit together to read a book, but you can't photocopy the book for your friend to read away from the copy you bought. You can lie to yourself all you want, but you can't justify theft.

You generally don't have a license at all to copyrighted works, software being the major exception. The work is just protected by bare copyright law. A license is by definition a special written agreement or offer between the copyright holder and you. There is no "basic license" that is automatic, but rather there are default copyright provisions.

You can have multiple copies floating around as long as they are "fair use" - though fair use is much less generous than many believe!

LittleShepherd wrote:As for the apple thing -- it would only be okay to magically copy someone's apple if you had his permission to do so. It's his apple; therefore it's his right to choose whether he wants it copied or not. Whether he wants to charge a small fee to allow you to copy it. Or whatever. Doing anything with his apple without his permission would be wrong.

An apple is neither a "literary" nor an "artistic" work and therefore falls outside the scope of copyright law. But the apple image is right as an analogy for how copyright law works even though it isn't literally true.

I was thinking about this, and...well, whether the person who made the music loses something or not, you're still taking something that's not yours. The effect on the other end doesn't change that.

Anyway, as Christians, we have a catch-all commandment for stuff like this. It's the tenth, and least often quoted commandment as far as I can tell. <B>You shall not covet.</B> That basically means that if you don't have something, and you have no right to that thing(by law or otherwise), that you shouldn't even let yourself want it. It's really unique among the 10 commandments. The other 9 all refer to things that you do. The last one cuts straight to the core of things -- your heart.

If you think about it, covetousness comes before every single other sin. Theft, murder, adultery, idolatry...you first want something else, and then you commit the other sins in order to get it. Covetousness is simply desiring something(or someone) that you have no right to desire in the first place. I mean...if we dealt with this, then most other sins would never be an issue in the first place. And we wouldn't get to the point where we start trying to skirt copyright law and justify illegal actions, because we'd be focusing on the desires we're supposed to have, and not the ones we have no right to have in the first place.

LittleShepherd wrote:If you think about it, covetousness comes before every single other sin. Theft, murder, adultery, idolatry...you first want something else, and then you commit the other sins in order to get it. Covetousness is simply desiring something(or someone) that you have no right to desire in the first place. I mean...if we dealt with this, then most other sins would never be an issue in the first place. And we wouldn't get to the point where we start trying to skirt copyright law and justify illegal actions, because we'd be focusing on the desires we're supposed to have, and not the ones we have no right to have in the first place.

BINGO! Jesus himself talks about something like this. See for instance Matthew 5:21-30.

I'm not so concerned with downloading alot of unavailable, unsold games, music or movies and other rarities that are generally not accessible. It is actually convenient. Most of the times, I buy the originals when I come across them. If it's out of print and very difficult to obtain, then they're not losing money when you buy it. Most companies (such as alot of underground/independant artists or game companies) don't care if you download their older stuff because it's no longer sold (and probably won't be again).

i have to admit i've gone back to this. music, movies, games. i have justified it by thinking that the companies stole from all of us for years by making cd's so expensive and by putting only one good song on each of them. it's just payback time.

Prodigal Son wrote:i have to admit i've gone back to this. music, movies, games. i have justified it by thinking that the companies stole from all of us for years by making cd's so expensive and by putting only one good song on each of them. it's just payback time.

I concur with your thinking, HOWEVER, it is still illegal. Stealing is stealing, simply put. Don't steal because you think it should be payback, you would certainly hope that you aren't paid a visit because of illegal downloading or what have you.

Prodigal Son wrote:i have to admit i've gone back to this. music, movies, games. i have justified it by thinking that the companies stole from all of us for years by making cd's so expensive and by putting only one good song on each of them. it's just payback time.

If you think companies did that, just use iTunes. The right people get money, and you just get the songs you like. Nothing illegal with that approach.