Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:08 pm
Agreed, I didn't mean to say that our fruits were an indicator as to our standing with Grace
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
Thanks IRQ.IRQ Conflict wrote:Yeah, it is harsh Silvertusk. Thats why God came up with a plan to save His creation, He loves us that much. Did you know that Christ feared what was coming upon Him so much he literally sweat blood? He knew the horrors of hell all too well. Although He was saddened ay the peoples actions they took against him it was not the fear of man that made Him tremble, He knew He was going to hell..literally!
And it appears also that He was in great shock and confusion on the cross and cried out "Father, why hast Thou forsaken me?"
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
I can only imagine how God must have felt hearing His Son cry out for Him, Jesus was made sin for us, instead the FULL cup of wrath that was supposed to be mans punishment would be poured on His Innocent Son.
I think at that moment the Fathers heart was broken. But He had to do this in order to fulfil His promise and desire to bring His people home.
If we CHOOSE not to believe Him, we spit on the very core of Gods Grace and Love. And call God a liar! How is that for gratitude?
Make no mistake, God knows the beginning from the end. He is the Alpha and the Omega! He judges the hearts of man and no one that accepts the Truth of the cross will ever see it.
Praise the Lord! no wonder we will be praising God for all eternity! what an awesome sacrifice!
I read on another post somewhere, someone said something like 'it's less a faith thing and more of a following the obvious'. As it is written, the last day's 'knowledge shall increase' 'the wicked will become more wicked and the righteous shall be more righteous'.
Atheists that refuse to acknowledge the irrefutable proof of God's creation being 'willingly ignorant' (the judging of the heart play's into this) will deny the cross and go to hell. That is what they want.
Also, I would like to say that God's laws are eternal, He never changes. He set His law up before the foundation of the world, berfore he created man. He warned Adam (man) and Eve (woman) 'if you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will surly die'.
Hell wasn't made for man. Hell was reserved for Satan and his fallen angels, death and
He told them not to, He told them the consequence if they did. But they did it anyway, being decieved and believing the lie of Satan.
You have a good point there about Satan. But I do actually think that Seperation from God is probably worse than fire and brimestone, because once you have seen the glory and majesty of the almighty then I really do believe that even the most hardened athiest will be crippled with that knowledge of what he has denied. That is the gnashing of teeth - that is the everlasting worm that eats away at them for all eternity. That is their torture and metal anguish. That is what they saught for in their lives - and that is what God has given them - he has given them to their sins.IRQ Conflict wrote:I share your view (although still beleive in literal hell) of the severity thing seemingly going against God's grain Silvertusk. There are things that with our level of revelation and knowledge, or lack thereof (more the case ) that we just aren't seeing the whole picture.
And I believe even us 'Christians' can live under the veil of deception to a degree depending on our walk with the Lord. I'm at a point where I can tell you that it's been my experiance that the Bible when taken 'with a grain of salt' 'pie in the sky' 'alegorical' views just don't pan out.
As my dad say's 'scripture interprets scripture'. So I tend to believe that when the Bible speaks of "Fire and Brimstone" I take it at that. And hope that I'm wrong.
You see the danger of not believing the Bible literally, people will become 'slack' 'lazy virgins' and not take the danger warning so seriously- NOT GOOD!
Thinking that our punishment would be limited to 'getting rid of God' (seperation from Him) would not be a very effective deterent. And I fear thats what Satan would want us to believe.
God Bless!
Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture, doesn't Scripture also use other terminologies of hell such as outer darkness (Matthew 8:12; Matthew 22:13), "chains of darkness" (2 Peter 2:4), and "blackest darkness" (2 Peter 2:17; Jude 1:13). Thus, wouldn't it be contradictory to say hell is literally fire a brimstone given Scripture also refers to it as a dark place?IRQ Conflict wrote:As my dad say's 'scripture interprets scripture'. So I tend to believe that when the Bible speaks of "Fire and Brimstone" I take it at that. And hope that I'm wrong.
Replace the word 'terminologies' with 'descriptive attributes' and you'll be on the right track.Kurieuo wrote:
Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture, doesn't Scripture also use other terminologies of hell
From someones point of veiw that wants to be in God's presence, yes.Silvertusk wrote:
You have a good point there about Satan. But I do actually think that Seperation from God is probably worse than fire and brimestone,
As was posted previously by another member, remember the rich mans attitude towards Lazarus? He wanted Lazarus to dip his finger in water so that he (the rich man) might quench the thirst of his tourment.because once you have seen the glory and majesty of the almighty then I really do believe that even the most hardened athiest will be crippled with that knowledge of what he has denied.
I don't see the correlation.That is the gnashing of teeth - that is the everlasting worm that eats away at them for all eternity.
Yes it isSo IMHO this is not as allegorical as it sounds.
Because God said it does, and God created it. Your looking at a creation with your human thoughts and intelect, thats where many athiests and big band theoriests get mixed up, and many creationists stray from the Word and try putting God in a box. That just won't work, God's too big to fit in our box.how can Hell be a place of eternal darkness and yet have everlasting fire?
Yes the fire does refer to judgment, in many places. Yes, everlasting is another attribute.This is another reason why I think that the fire refers to Jugdement and yes it will be everlasting - but Hell is still a very dark and lonely place.
Well, ok. Think then all those terifying attributes you've just described, then dump a bunch of black liquid fire everywhere.To be honest that version of Hell terrifies me more that the fire and Brimestone version.
Dear brother? Sister?, do not be decieved!Don't get me wrong I totally agree with your interpretation of it as well - but I think the one mentioned by Strobel is equally valid
Sure it can, God does not lie!because nethier can be proved to be wrong exclusively.
God forbids it!But hopefully neither of us will ever find out anyway.
So, this at least gives an example of something the human mind can comprehendAnyone would agree that an undetected, uncontrolled fire is a menace that leaves disaster and destruction in its wake. When the fire happens to be invisible, as is the case with hydrogen fires...
Jesus became sin for us and bore the brunt of the FULL UNDILUTED WRATH OF GOD so that it would be possible for us to be forgiven."Forgive them Lord for they do not know what they are doing" was Jesus's cry from the cross - yet on a cosmic scale - this cry is being ignored.
"Gnashing of teeth" would be in anger I believe. I did a light study on the word 'worm' in the Bible. Very interesting read, there are multiple worm types described in the Bible.That is the gnashing of teeth - that is the everlasting worm that eats away at them for all eternity.
God Bless!As out of the corruption of our bodies worms breed, which consume the flesh; so out of the corruption of our souls this never dying worm. This worm (say divines) is only a continual remorse and furious reflection of the soul upon its own willful folly, and now woeful misery. Oh, consider this before thy friends be scrambling for thy goods, worms for thy body, devils for thy soul. Go not dancing to hell in thy bolts; rejoice not in thy bondage, as many do; to whom the preaching of hell is but as the painting of a toad, which men can look on and handle without fear. -John Trapp
One thing that has always bothered me is whether heaven and hell are real PLACES or just a spiritual realm. Well this links to another thread i will soon post when ill have more time (about whether this world is a place or just a spiritual realm etc). Because people say "heaven is not a real place, just a spiritual feeling" or something like that. Well couldnt heaven and hell be just sort of eternal "dream" where we just suffer? Not a place, and the people around us etc maybe wouldnt exist in reality but would exist in our "realm" as in dreams? Just imagine how much you suffer while having a bad dream. You think it is reality but hopefully when it ends you realize it wasnt. But what if heaven/hell were just like dreams sort of? CAn someone define whats place and whats not?Lady Bee wrote:And also, it's worth noting that many instances where "Hell" is talked about in the New Testament are translated from different words meaning different things. Sometimes it's Hades, sometimes it's Gehenna the always-burning-rubbish-pit (which is the case in Luke 12, I believe), a comparison that was used to make the concept of Hell easier for people to understand, or something, and sometimes it's the place of eternal torment etc..