Evidence for God from Science

Hey, I just got a word from God skoob. He told me how some things you do aren't right, and that I'm to write a book to show you the correct way. I can send it to you if you want?

Thanks for the praise, K, but I am far from a god. (Just kidding...that was intentional taking you out of context. Sorry.)

Seriously... do you think people would really be so quick to change their lifestyle at a whim. Especially if, as you say, there must have been something crazy going on (i.e., total depravity??) Perhaps they should trial the theories of Atheists/Agnostics on those in prison.

I know I would change my ways...especially if there was a large man holding my family down by a long sword when I only had a handful of dirt to fight with. If that large man said "believe in Christianity!" I would only believe to the effect that it might let my family live. If I had to keep that attitude throughout my life and memorize the words of God and spread the words of God, I would probably do that as well...whatver it takes to keep the family alive.
That's not my honest belief of what happened, but it's a what if? scenario. What if that's what happened? Would you have changed your beliefs from atheist to Christian if you were in a situation like that, or would your personal integrity be so strong that you wouldn't care what happened to your family and yourself?
There are several parts in the Bible where God says to destroy villages and other religions, and to turn people Christian if they are able to change--perhaps my idea isn't so farfetched after all. I guess I could be interpreting the Bible wrong as well, as I have a tendency to do...please explain these passages to me:
Deuteronomy 7:1-6 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to youand you have defeated them, you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve otther gods, and the Lord's anger will burn against you and you will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God.

This was the something crazy going on I was referring to, and yes, I do think people would be quick to change their lifestyles to fit those of the murderers in the name of God.

God said show them no mercy, and goes on to say to destroy all the pagan aspects and not to associate with the people. God is talking to the people of Israel who already believe in him, has nothing to do with non believers and forcing them into anything.

You are ignorant of the power of God, God is very well aware that people will only truely follow him if they come to him willingly and as such that's why he tells his people not to meddle with them as they won't join God but will go against him in the future.

skoobieschnax wrote:I know I would change my ways...especially if there was a large man holding my family down by a long sword when I only had a handful of dirt to fight with. If that large man said "believe in Christianity!" I would only believe to the effect that it might let my family live. If I had to keep that attitude throughout my life and memorize the words of God and spread the words of God, I would probably do that as well...whatver it takes to keep the family alive.

That is certainly a strawman, and I believe also refutes your case. 1) Christianity doesn't go back that far; 2) The Bible was written by different authors spanning over periods of time; 3) It refutes your case that the Bible was there to control a mob, seeing as it is now the mob controlling the people ; and 4) just because skepticism is possible, it does not mean it is reasonable or true.

Skoobie wrote:That's not my honest belief of what happened, but it's a what if? scenario. What if that's what happened? Would you have changed your beliefs from atheist to Christian if you were in a situation like that, or would your personal integrity be so strong that you wouldn't care what happened to your family and yourself?

Now that is a load question if I ever did see one. Have you ever taken a look at the actual history of Christianity, and then Judaism before it?

Skoob wrote:There are several parts in the Bible where God says to destroy villages and other religions, and to turn people Christian if they are able to change--perhaps my idea isn't so farfetched after all. I guess I could be interpreting the Bible wrong as well, as I have a tendency to do...please explain these passages to me:

And if you look elsewhere on these boards you will see well thought out responses to such things that actually take into account true history. And when one does examine the facts, it becomes obvious such attacks were not to force people into changing their beliefs.

Skoob, I also think you've crossed the line here. Not even with a rational attack, but just with nonsensical attacks. Please read the purpose of this board, and to make it more evident:

• Evidence for God from Science (G&S) is a Christian website which serves to provide a defense and persuasive case for Christianity, as well as encouragement and instruction for Christian people. Originally an open discussion board was decided upon where Christians and non-Christians could debate and voice their arguments for and against Christianity. In hindsight, it is doubtful whether this option was the best way of helping G&S fulfill its purpose. Instead it seemed that the previous board served as much a place for those against Christianity to propagate their beliefs and go on the attack, as it did for those sincerely seeking responses to questions, and for Christians to be strengthened in their faith. As such, the previous discussion board did not match up with the desired purpose of the G&S website. So after thoughtful consideration, it was decided to create a new board in order to better fulfill the purpose of the G&S website.
  ...
  —http://discussions.godandscience.org/viewtopic.php?t=3—

If you disagree so much with Christianity, please find another board. This is your final warning.

Kurieuo.

Okay. Fine. I am in your house, I will play by your rules...however ironic they are.

1) Christianity doesn't go back that far

Then why do Christians still use this part of the book? Or is it only the parts that don't help an agnostic's argument that are generally agreed with? I thought that the OT was a part of Christianity. Perhaps I do have my facts jumbled...

2) The Bible was written by different authors spanning over periods of time

I am not sure what this has to do with my response, which I did not see as an attack on Christianity, as I used the Bible as a reference and offered to have an open mind as to anyone else's input. Do you remember this:

I guess I could be interpreting the Bible wrong as well, as I have a tendency to do...please explain these passages to me

I am confused as to why so much is seen as a threat to you, K. You seem to be a very intellectual person, but I am unsure of why intellectual conversation is not allowed in your house.
Your rules:

Instead it seemed that the previous board served as much a place for those against Christianity to propagate their beliefs and go on the attack, as it did for those sincerely seeking responses to questions, and for Christians to be strengthened in their faith.

First, I didn't think it to be an attack on Christianity, as I used the Bible as a reference to my response. It might not be an agreement within Christianity, but there is a difference between posting differences of opinions versus posting attacks. Also, if people are sincerely seeking responses to questions, shouldn't they seek from as many sources as possible? Perhaps this should be rephrased to read "...for those sincerely seeking responses to questions (from the viewpoint of Christianity only." that would be a bit more honest. Second, if my so-called "attacks" are as unreasonable as you posit, than why would you fear I am desintegrating Christianity? Wouldn't it strengthen Christianity, as others would come to see how ludicrous my arguments are? In that aspect, it would seem I am helping to strengthen Christian viewpoints, which is another one of your rules.

...and for Christians to be strengthened in their faith...

You should cherish ignorant, unintelligent, rambling, nonsensical agnostics on your site if you were truly looking to strengthen Christianity.

If you disagree so much with Christianity, please find another board

I don't disagree with Christianity, and frankly, I'm sick of hearing the stereotypes of agnostics/ atheists being portrayed as demonic people who are "against Christianity." Just because Christians are against agnostics/ atheists does not mean that agnostics/ atheists are against Christianity. From what I've seen so far, a few people have been threatened to be kicked off the boards--amazingly, none of those are Christians who attack atheism or agnosticism--that's perfectly allowed in discussions without equal rules for differences of opinion. Also, this entire thread is under the "Answers for Non-Christian" forum...if questions from non-Christians are not tolerated, why is there such a forum? They are honest questions with desires for honest answers--that's what you ask for in your rules. If it only further enhances my agnosticism, so be it...I'm pretty sure the Christians on this site are unshakeable in their faith, so it's not like I'm here to post anti-Christian propaganda. I just figured if this forum is meant to give answers to questions from people such as myself, then I would ask questions and seek answers...I haven't gotten an answer from you, but instead an attack on my question.
Back to the discussion:

And if you look elsewhere on these boards you will see well thought out responses to such things that actually take into account true history. And when one does examine the facts, it becomes obvious such attacks were not to force people into changing their beliefs.

Please guide me in that direction, as I did ask for a different interpretation to the Biblical passage I posted...if there is a better understanding to what seemed like murder of people of different faiths I am willing to listen.

Now that is a load question if I ever did see one. Have you ever taken a look at the actual history of Christianity, and then Judaism before it?

Unfortunately, I have not. Please tell.

3) It refutes your case that the Bible was there to control a mob, seeing as it is now the mob controlling the people

It says in the passage

and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to youand you have defeated them

. That still sounds like mob control. Not as a result of the Bible, but as a direct result of God's unhappiness with "pagan" (i.e., non-believers in the one and only God) religions. I think this is in perfect line with the original context of this post--James was asking if religion is used as mob-control, as several psychologists (demonic atheist psychologists, no doubt) have asked the same question. Perhaps James thought he might be able to get an answer from someone on this forum because the answer couldn't be found with other Christians. That's the same way with me--if you expect me to change my beliefs, why would you shun my questions? You know me to be a skeptic, but honest and meaningful answers to my honest and (I thought) meaningful questions shouldn't hurt.
VVart:

You are ignorant of the power of God, God is very well aware that people will only truely follow him if they come to him willingly and as such that's why he tells his people not to meddle with them as they won't join God but will go against him in the future.

I don't know how to go to God willingly. That is either a problem with skeptics (in the eyes of many Christians) or something to rejoice in (as it seems with the skeptics themselves. ) My brain was simply not built to allow me to walk into believing in things I cannot see or feel or touch or taste or smell. Such is the way with a man of science. However, this website supposedly promotes evidence for God from science, yet I haven't heard anything more than philosophical debates (you see the earth, it must have had a creator) as opposed to scientific proof (you see the earth, that's what we have to work with. If there's a God, we'll find Him eventually.)

Then why do Christians still use this part of the book? Or is it only the parts that don't help an agnostic's argument that are generally agreed with? I thought that the OT was a part of Christianity. Perhaps I do have my facts jumbled...

We no longer observe jewish ceremonial law but that doesn't mean there is nothing to learn from the OT.

I like that response. Thanks, Mastermind. I think I understand your view a little more now.

skoobieschnax wrote:

1) Christianity doesn't go back that far

Then why do Christians still use this part of the book? Or is it only the parts that don't help an agnostic's argument that are generally agreed with? I thought that the OT was a part of Christianity. Perhaps I do have my facts jumbled...

This is a very dishonest tactic Skoob. You know as well as I do the original statement you made was: "If that large man said "believe in Christianity!" There was no man way back then, who would have even known what Christianity was. My reply was obviously to this, and it is dishonest to try now cover your faulty reasoning, by changing the topics to now turn my response into an amphiboly to meaning something I never meant. It is also the trademark of someone who only wants to talk, debate and win, rather than listen and reason.

skoobie wrote:

2) The Bible was written by different authors spanning over periods of time

I am not sure what this has to do with my response,

It means you have to assume people were in collaboration over a millenium or longer, all with one purpose in mind—to control society. Now I am confused as to why you did not make this connection, and instead chose to follow you must feel this is a threat line...

skoobie wrote:You should cherish ignorant, unintelligent, rambling, nonsensical agnostics on your site if you were truly looking to strengthen Christianity.

I do find it amusing how you continually chose to label yourself, Athests/Agnostics as satanic, unintelligent, rambling, etc... and then place such stigmata onto Christians considering I have not witnessed any Christian here seriously say such things.

Additionally, we cherish those who are sincerely looking into Christianity, and when such people have questions that trouble them, I don't mind giving a response. Such is what the board is here for, not to debate arguments from anyone. Now, we are looking to strengthen Christianity, but you misunderstand if you think Christianity in and of itself needs strengthening. It has stood the test of time for over two millenia, and many beliefs have fallen to the wayside. Atheism on the other hand is only a few centuries old, and it seems to be already dying and becoming replaced by post-modern beliefs.

So, by strengthening Christianity it is meant that "Christianity" itself needs strengthening. No, because Christianity stands on firm foundations and is quite strong rationally, evidenced by its survival. However, a purpose of this board is to strengthen the beliefs of individuals in Chrsitianity. So to the a Christian who has been troubled by doubt, they can post and have their doubts responded to. To someone who desires to understand Christianity, but they have some stumbling blocks, they can post and have their stumbling blocks removed. Yet, to the person who has made up their mind, though they may have the same questions they can argue elsewhere.

skoobs wrote:Also, this entire thread is under the "Answers for Non-Christian" forum...if questions from non-Christians are not tolerated, why is there such a forum? They are honest questions with desires for honest answers--that's what you ask for in your rules.

Actually the rules are more in regard to one's motivation. You may sincerely ask a question, but you may also have made up your mind Christianity isn't for you. Therefore any questions you ask, there is no point to post them on this board, because this board is not for you. This should be clear from the discussion guidelines, and especially the exchange that followed. Many non-Christians have been quite respectful to them, and although they may not like it, they have accepted them and gone to other boards more suitable. I fail to see your problem. If you don't like it, just leave.

I see no further need to respond further.

Kurieuo.

googaly wrote: I must say, I do not join merely to attack, and I believe that to make up one's mind in either direction is a mistake. I leave myself open to all possibilities and encourage others to do the same. DO YOU?! I have found most Christians excited by the opportunity to explore their Theology.

Contemplate this Greg - Who would you let set all the rules? My answer would be 'Someone who knows everything about everything'. I believe the answer to that is God. Why should I not fear His rule(s)? Like you said you believed in another post - God is love.

Does this mean I live in ignorance? In our attempt to know the truth, we have merely scratched the surface with scientific knowledge. There are billions of unexplored worlds, let alone the mysteries of our own Earth. (See the last section of the book of Job in the Bible). God has a Way of letting us know the truth. That is Jesus.

Long, but worth the read..http://www.rzim.org/publications/essay_arttext.php?id=9