Are those who fall from faith still saved?

[IRQ Conflict]

Ah! gotcha! My mistook

[puritan lad]

I would think a loving and merciful God would want to make it easy for the sinner to believe...not being willing that any should perish and all.

Actually, the Bible never says that in a universal sense. 2 Peter 3:9, the most misquoted verse in the Bible that supposedly teaches universal atonement, was actually a promise toward the elect, not to every person on the planet. The promise was "toward us", "those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:" (2 Peter 1:1). God is not willing that any of His elect should perish, (and they won't).

Another popular scripture used by Arminians is 1 Timothy 2:3-4:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".

Paul, in this entire book, is defending his ministry to the Gentiles (see verses 6-7). Therefore, "all men" refers to all men without distinction, not all men without exception. This is usually the case with verses that speak of "all men" or "the whole world".

To suggest otherwise would be to make God confused. Afterall, if it is God's will for every single person on the planet to be saved, then why did He make the wicked for the Day of Destruction (Proverbs 16:4)? Why did He raise up Pharoah for the express purpose of destroying him (Romans 9:17-18)? Why did God hate Esau (Romans 9:13)? Esau sought God with tears, but never could receive from Him.

Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost (weren't we all lost?)

You hit an important point here. Jesus came to seek and to save. Who did He come to "seek and to save"? Did He succeed?

Jesus said in Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? (all we like sheep have gone astray haven't we? At least that's what Isaiah said.)

Again, I agree. He goes out and saves. That is His purpose. The question is "Who does He save?" Everybody? In that case, as a matter of common observation, He failed.

Remember the Philippian jailor?

Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Why didn't Paul and silas say "there is nothing you can do, it's up to God. Either you're in or out, sorry pal." No, they told him what the "requirement" was and the guy did it. I'm not against repentance but that didn't seem to come up here and if you read on he did what they suggested and was saved. Yeah yeah I know...he was already predestined to be saved and Paul and silas happened to be there at the right time....

The scriptures agree. (Acts 13:48)

What does it mean to "believe"? Is it possible to believe without being changed? No. If you believe in Jesus, than you also believe in Hell. Your life changes because you fear Him (2 Corinthians 5:11) and you love him:

1 John 5:3
"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome."

Those who say they know God and do not keep His commandments are emphatically called "liars" (1 John 2:3-4). I realize that this is a very unpopular teaching in today's religion of maudlin sentimentalism, but it is scriptural. Jesus agrees in Matthew 7:21-23. Heaven will never be seen by professed Christians who "practice lawlessness".

God is sovereign and Holy and stands on His own name which means He can do whatever he wants and we don't have the right to say squat, but if He is love like it says in 1st john, and just and fair, and his mercy endures forever than I am at a loss when I hear that he came up with a plan before the foundation of the earth to save some and let the rest go to hell just so that He could show how sovereign He is and how much he loves those that He chooses.

It is no wonder that God is mostly spoken of today as a God of Love, but very seldom as a God of indescribable eternal wrath. (The Bible says more about His wrath than His love, but the modern church ignores that fact.) God's love is not promiscuous. Modern Evangelicals love to hear that "God loves you just the way you are". If you want a real theological bombshell, check out Psalm 5:5-6. But beware, it may disturb you.

As for His immutable decree (predestination), let's let the Scriptures dictate that for us.

Psalm 33:10-12
"The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect.
The counsel of the LORD stands forever,
The plans of His heart to all generations.
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD,
The people He has chosen as His own inheritance."

So much for the "God is a gentlemen who respects your will" nonsense.

Psalm 115:3
"But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases."

Daniel 4:35
"All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing;
He does according to His will in the army of heaven
And among the inhabitants of the earth.
No one can restrain His hand
Or say to Him, “What have You done?”"

Isaiah 46:9-11
"Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,'
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it."

Ephesians 1:4-5,11
"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, ... In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,"

Pretty clear to me. As Charles Spurgeon observed, "Men will allow God to be everywhere except on his throne. They will allow him to be in his workshop to fashion worlds and to make stars. They will allow him to be in his almonry to dispense his alms and bestow his bounties. They will allow him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillars thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the ever-moving ocean; but when God ascends his throne, his creatures then gnash their teeth; and when we proclaim an enthroned God, and his right to do as he wills with his own, to dispose of his creatures as he thinks well, without consulting them in the matter, then it is that we are abhorreded and despised, and then it is that men turn a deaf ear to us, for God on his throne is not the God they love."

There can be no middle ground. Either God has predestined every event that will ever take place in this universe, or these same events are governed by undesigned chance and blind fate. In the case of the latter, God's Sovereignty is denied, and God is not God.

If one of us said to a friend "I'm going to kill your whole family but spare you...see how much I love you." we'd call him a sociopath, but when your calvinist God does it He is justified in his sovereignty. I'm mystified.

I'll let Paul answer this. Romans 9:19-24.

[FFC]

Your very Knowledgable, PL. You know what you believe and you are passionate about it. I wonder though if you have any compassion for the people God supposedly left to their own devices and end up in hell. I couldn't sleep at night believing my God could be so cruel. I know that God is equally as Holy and able to demonstrate his wrath as well as His love...I see that demonstrated equally on the cross. But where is the justice and fairness and love in creating a people of which you deliberately save some and let the rest go to hell. It's not there. Oh yes, for the saved ones it's great, but what of the poor sinners who never even had the opportunity to believe according your theology. I believe you truly Limit the power of God when you say that Sovereignty and free will can not exist at the same time.

Jesus did come to seek and to save that which was lost and he succeeded. It's all theirs if they come to the sacrifice and believe that he accomplished what He came to do. Even if a man is spiritually depraved an honest one will see that he needs help...now it's up to him to go to the cross and take part in that sacrifice and be cleansed just like the children of Israel had to leave their dwellings to go to their sacrifices and receive their covering.

I know that you believe with all your heart that you are right. But taking all scriptures in context and holding them against all the Holy attributes of God makes it hard for me to believe it.

[puritan lad]

FFC,

Please do not mistake my harshness toward Jac's "easy-believism" as a lack of compassion. Just the opposite is true. Telling someone that they can go to heaven without submitting to the Lordship of Christ may, on the surface, sound like compassion, but it is one of the cruelest lies you can tell. If we are truly compassionate toward people, we need to tell them the truth.

As far as the holy attributes of God, they can only be known through the scriptures. Who is God? What is He really like? Sadly, most people, including born-again Christians, have no idea. "Acquaint now thyself with Him, and be at peace: thereby good shall come unto thee" (Job 22:21). "Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty glory in his might, let not the rich glory in his riches: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth, and knoweth Me, that I am the Lord" (Jer 9:23,24). A spiritual and saving knowledge of God is the greatest need of every human creature.

I would highly recommend that you read A. W. Pink's The Attributes of God. It may reform your theology.

[YLTYLT]

Some of my Calvinist friends use Romans 8:29 to support their belief that we were predestined unto salvation. But if you do a word search on conform you only find the following 3 verses:

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Philippians 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;


All of these passages talk about fellowship and our sanctification. not salvation.
And I agree that all who are saved will be sanctified eventually. But it cannot be determined from this verse alone whether sanctification is included in what was predestined. It just does not say here!!

I Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

"According to" means "because of" or "as a result of". Therefore we were elected because of his foreknowledge. And because we see above that predestination has to do with sanctification we can see that the order of events of first foreknowledge, then election then predestination.

The simple truth is: God did not choose (some would say predestinate) some to go to heaven and some to go to hell. God chose people for salvation “before the world began” because God knew (as in foreknowledge) beforehand who would trust CHRIST as Savior and be saved and who would not. According to Romans 8:29, foreknowledge (God's prior knowledge of all things) is the basis of our election and precedes predestination.

(the destiny of the elect is to be adopted and conformed to the image of CHRIST). Again, God chose us for salvation before the creation of the world because He foreknew who would be saved and who would not.

If God chose some to go to heaven and some to go to hell, would that not contradict what Peter said in II Peter 3:9?

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

It's true: God has no random favorites. Never has, never will. The Scriptures say CHRIST died for everyone's sins (See - II Cor 5:14,15 & Jn 1:29 & I Tim 2:6 & 4:10 & I Jn 2:2) therefore everyone is entitled to salvation. So, first of all, God did not choose some for heaven and some for hell “before the world began.” That's a “given” given all the evidence to the contrary.

Adoption:
I know some Calvinist like to use Ephesians 1:5 to say we were predestined to be saved, but…..

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

If this word "adoption" means "salvation", then they would be correct and this verse would mean we were predestined to be saved. But the word adoption is only used 5 times in the KJV NT and OT.

And it seems to me that all of these verses are referring to either sanctification or redemption and not salvation. Don't you agree?

Here is one of the verses and my comments on Romans 8:22-25

NIV
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?
25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.


KJV
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Defining "to wit":
"to wit" archaically means to To be or become aware of;Learn.
v. intr. To know.
Idiom: to wit : That is to say; namely.

So adoption means the "redemption of our body". And of course redemption does not happen until Christ returns.

Also, from verse 23, if adoption meant salvation then why would saved people be "waiting for the adoption" if they had already been adopted.

Here are all the rest of the verses on adoption:
Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Galatians 4:5
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


This is probably more than enough for now.

Thanks, and may God bless all of us with the knowledge of the truth.

[IRQ Conflict]

Good job YLTYLT! Thanks for that!

[puritan lad]

YLTYLT,

I couldn't help but notice that you didn't address 2 Timothy 1:9 or 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

Here is a good list. There are, of course, many more.

...God chooses his own heritage. (Psalm 33:12)
...God creates the wicked for destruction. (Proverbs 16:4)
...Many are called, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)
...As many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48)
...He foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified His elect. (Romans 8:28-30)
...God chose Jacob over Esau “not of works” but “that the purpose of God according to election might stand”. (Romans 9:10-13)
...God creates “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” and “vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory”. (Romans 9:22-23)
...God did not appoint His elect to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:9)
...The Pharisees were appointed to be disobedient to the Word (1 Peter 2:8,9) (and thank God they were).
...He chose His elect in Him before the foundation of the world, predestined them to adoption as sons, according to the good pleasure of His will. (Ephesians 1:4,5)
...We were predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will. (Ephesian 1:11)
...He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. (2 Timothy 1:9)
...God from the beginning chose us for salvation. (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)
...Those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful. (Revelation 17:14)

The simple truth is: God did not choose (some would say predestinate) some to go to heaven and some to go to hell. God chose people for salvation “before the world began” because God knew (as in foreknowledge) beforehand who would trust CHRIST as Savior and be saved and who would not. According to Romans 8:29, foreknowledge (God's prior knowledge of all things) is the basis of our election and precedes predestination.

Wrong. Here is Pink on The Foreknowledge of God.

"The fact is that "foreknowledge" is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to "foreknow," not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.
The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse it will be seen that the apostle was not there speaking of God's foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: "Him (Christ) being delivered by," etc.
The second occurrence is in Romans 8;29,30. "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image, of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called," etc. Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view.
"God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom. 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.
The last mention is in 1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the "strangers scattered" i.e. the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.
Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God "foreknew" the acts of certain ones, viz., their "repenting and believing," and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God's "foreknowledge." The word uniformly refers to God's foreknowing persons; then let us "hold fast the form of sound words" (2 Tim. 1:13).
Another thing to which we desire to call particular attention is that the first two passages quoted above show plainly and teach implicitly that God's "foreknowledge" is not causative, that instead, something else lies behind, precedes it, and that something is His own sovereign decree. Christ was "delivered by the (1) determinate counsel and (2) foreknowledge of God." (Acts 2:23). His "counsel" or decree was the ground of His foreknowledge. So again in Romans 8:29. That verse opens with the word "for," which tells us to look back to what immediately precedes. What, then, does the previous verse say? This, "all things work together for good to them. . . .who are the called according to His purpose." Thus God's foreknowledge is based upon His purpose or decree (see Ps. 2:7).
God foreknows what will be because He has decreed what shall be. It is therefore a reversing of the order of Scripture, a putting of the cart before the horse, to affirm that God elects because He foreknows people. The truth is, He "foreknows" because He has elected. This removes the ground or cause of election from outside the creature, and places it in God's own sovereign will. God purposed in Himself to elect a certain people, not because of anything good in them or from them, either actual or foreseen, but solely out of His own mere pleasure. As to why He chose the ones He did, we do not know, and can only say, "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight." The plain truth of Romans 8:29 is that God, before the foundation of the world, singled out certain sinners and appointed them unto salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). This is clear from the concluding words of the verse: "Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son," etc. God did not predestinate those whom He foreknew were "conformed," but, on the contrary, those whom He "foreknew" (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated to be conformed. Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God's foreknowledge and predestination."

(the destiny of the elect is to be adopted and conformed to the image of CHRIST). Again, God chose us for salvation before the creation of the world because He foreknew who would be saved and who would not.

Of course He "foreknew" who would be saved because He elected, foreordained, appointed, chose, and predestined them (that's a few of the words that the Bible uses.

If God chose some to go to heaven and some to go to hell, would that not contradict what Peter said in II Peter 3:9?

I already addressed this. 2 Peter 3:9 was a promise "toward us", the elect. (See who Peter is addressing in 2 Peter 1:1). I highlighted the important part of your verse in red below.

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

It's true: God has no random favorites. Never has, never will. The Scriptures say CHRIST died for everyone's sins (See - II Cor 5:14,15 & Jn 1:29 & I Tim 2:6 & 4:10 & I Jn 2:2) therefore everyone is entitled to salvation. So, first of all, God did not choose some for heaven and some for hell “before the world began.” That's a “given” given all the evidence to the contrary.

Again, I have already addressed "all men" and "the whole world". These are NOT universal terms. If so, then you would have universal salvation, per scriptures such as 2 Cor. 5:19 ("God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them"). What did Christ accomplish on the cross? He "with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." (Hebrews 9:12). Obviously, as a matter of common observance, He did not do this for everybody.

Isaiah 53:11-12
"He shall see the labor of His soul,and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors."

He bore the sins of "many", not all.

If this word "adoption" means "salvation", then they would be correct and this verse would mean we were predestined to be saved. But the word adoption is only used 5 times in the KJV NT and OT.

And it seems to me that all of these verses are referring to either sanctification or redemption and not salvation. Don't you agree?

WHo does He adopt? Those whom He saves. Does He adopt the unsaved? Are there saved people that He does not adopt? They are one in the same, but nice try.

If you can find a copy, I would encourage you to read John Owens "THE DEATH OF DEATH IN THE DEATH OF CHRIST". It pretty much settles the Calvinism/Arminianism debate for those who honestly love God's Word.

God Bless,

PL

[led]

puritan lad,

I must say that you can be quite harsh. I could very well get involved in this "battle" but it would seem to fall on hard ground.

Why not come to agreement on one verse at a time... it might bear some fruit.

You mentioned 2Timothy 1:9 not being addressed. I dont' see how that proves anything. It just says that He has a purpose for everyone who comes to Christ.

Could you explain how you use this to prove your point of view?

Led

[puritan lad]

YLTYLT,

You said something in your last post that exhibits the mindset of modern Arminianism.

The Scriptures say CHRIST died for everyone's sins (See - II Cor 5:14,15 & Jn 1:29 & I Tim 2:6 & 4:10 & I Jn 2:2) therefore everyone is entitled to salvation.

Do you really believe this?

[IRQ Conflict]

PL, I would say that is more accurate to say 'therefore everyone is entitled to accept the gift of salvation'.

Sorry to butt in

[puritan lad]

puritan lad,

I must say that you can be quite harsh. I could very well get involved in this "battle" but it would seem to fall on hard ground.

Why not come to agreement on one verse at a time... it might bear some fruit.

You mentioned 2Timothy 1:9 not being addressed. I dont' see how that proves anything. It just says that He has a purpose for everyone who comes to Christ.

Could you explain how you use this to prove your point of view?

Led

2 Timothy 1:9
"who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,"

This scripture tells us very plainly that Christ gave us saving grace before time began. He "predestined" us to salvation. Furthermore, it is "not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace". That seems pretty clear to me.

While it is true that "He has a purpose for everyone who comes to Christ", that doesn't begin to do justice to the above passage. He also has a purpose for the wicked (See Romans 9:17-18, Proverbs 16:4).

As for my harshness, it is not against Arminianism in general. I know a great number godly Arminians. I try to be understanding in this area as I was once an Arminian. However, I have little tolerance for the "cheap grace-no Lordship" salvation promoted by some in this thread. It is a lie straight from hell, and I will fight it with a righteous fervor. This is where my harshness is meant to be directed.

[puritan lad]

PL, I would say that is more accurate to say 'therefore everyone is entitled to accept the gift of salvation'.

Sorry to butt in ;)

No problem.

However, would you suggest that Pharoah (Romans 9:17-18) was entitled to accept the gift of salvation? How about Esau (Romans 9:10-13)? The Pharisees (See John 12:39-40, John 10:26, 1 Peter 2:8)?

As FFC rightly pointed out, Christ didn't come to just offer us salvation. He came to "seek and to save that which was lost". (Luke 19:10) Calvinist believe in a Saviour who actually saves; a Redeemer who actually redeems. He is a Christ that actually changes hearts, not a bystander who did His part and now hopes we find our way and make the right decision.

[WingZero0]

Oh PL, have you ever realized that the God you are creating with your double predestination is an evil one? If God is good then why create someone explicitly for damnation? He wouldn't.

You need to read The Bondage of The Will by Luther

[FFC]

37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"[g]

PL, I had to go further back in John 12 to find out what the reason was for the hardening and it seems to say to me that it was because of the Jews unbelief. He hardened their hearts because they did not believe. They had the opportunity and ability but did not take it. I don't think you can use these verses in good faith...do you? Read it, brother. It doesn't say they couldn't, it says they wouldn't. I'll give you this though. God did know, as He knows all, they they wouldn't believe, but we really can't read pedestination into this passage.

As far as Pharoah and esau go...it does not say that he hardened their hearts against Salvation. For Pharoah it was to make a point of him. To show everyone who the true and powerful almighty God is. Which is hard enough for me to accept, but I do because it's right there.

Esau was rejected and "hated" because God wanted the blessing and inheritance to go to Jacob. I don't understand that either but again it was God's plan and I accept it. No mention of salvation here either. Do you see it?

I don't know where you get your preconceived ideas about those who believe in free will. It wasn't easy for me to believe. God worked on me for years. It wasn't until I finally had to take a hard look at what His holy scriptures said about what would happen to me if I continued to live my sinful selfish life. All i know is finally meant business and surrendered my life to Him and told him though I didn't understand everything, I asked him to be my Lord and savior and believed without a doubt that His scriptures about those who believed in Him would be saved. I had a choice and I chose Him. You would say I'm either not saved or it was God who chose me against my will, but I don't think so.

I will say this. God will harden a person's heart who rejects him long enough like He did to the Jews.

As for the no Lordship thing....does any believer here believe that Jesus shouldn't be the Lord of your whole life all the time?

[YLTYLT]

PL ,
The link on foreknowledge is interesting. but it is only making statements of belief of what foreknowledge is referring to persons verses events. But even if what he is saying is true, it is irrelevant to whether he knows who will choose or who wont. If he knows you, of course you will have chosen. God is the Alpha and the Omega, he knows all things from beginning to end. God is sovereign but he cannot do anything. He can only do those things which he desires. And he cannot desire those things which are outside of His Character or His Nature.

PL, from your link on foreknowledge:

Another thing to which we desire to call particular attention is that the first two passages quoted above show plainly and teach implicitly that God's "foreknowledge" is not causative, that instead, something else lies behind, precedes it, and that something is His own sovereign decree. Christ was "delivered by the (1) determinate counsel and (2) foreknowledge of God." (Acts 2:23). His "counsel" or decree was the ground of His foreknowledge. So again in Romans 8:29. That verse opens with the word "for," which tells us to look back to what immediately precedes. What, then, does the previous verse say? This, "all things work together for good to them. . . .who are the called according to His purpose." Thus God's foreknowledge is based upon His purpose or decree (see Ps. 2:7).

Here he mentions that the word "For" should refer back to the prior verse or verses. Looking at the context of this verse, it is obvious that this is not a correct interpretation here. I will agree that sometimes "for" can mean the same thing as "therefore". But in this instance it is not the case.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

"For" in this instance is a qualifier of the rest of the statement. Whom did he predestinate? Those for whom he did foreknow.

So it could also be written this way:

He did predestinate, those that he foreknew, to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

but writing it this way is wordy, and most English teachers would say to put the qualifying phrase in front to make it more clear.

As far as 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 goes:
God has no random favorites. and is no respector of persons

2 Samuel 14:14
For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.

Mat 22:16
And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

According to the clear teachings of scripture: CHRIST dies for everyone's sins. (II Cor 5:14,15, John 1:29, I Tim 2:6, I Tim 4:10, I John 2:2 )
and offers salvation to "all" (Mt 28:19, Luke 2:10, John 3:16, John 12:32, Rom 10:13, I John 5:1 )

If you have questions about any specific verse please ask.

Thank you and may God bless us all with a better understanding of the one and only truth - whatever it may happen to be.