Evidence for God from Science

Perhaps it is ones understanding of natural selection which might enforce a limit on what natural selection is capable of.

For instance when engineering something the use of materials and design components is limited by our imaginations, and an understanding of the materials involved.

However materials behave a specific way whether we intend them to or not due to the inherent properties and interactions of the particles which the material is composed of.

In the case of the flagellum we are limited in our understanding of the flagellum and its components and therefore cannot imagine precursors beyond a few steps at this point in time.

But lets take for example the vacuum tube. When Edison was working some kinks out of his new incandescent invention he discovered that his bulbs would blacken at one end unevenly. In an attempt to correct this he discovered the "Edison Effect". He did this by covering the inside of the bulb with a metal foil, and found that by giving it a positive charge that the blackening would go away. He patented this not knowing that it would lead to a technological revolution. Namely radio, television, and computers all made possible by vacuum tubes. This twist on the incandescent lightbulb was co-opted for use as an amplifier and much more.

Because things are physical in nature something which may have an intended use also has other properties. And because of our discreet understanding of "intended use" and limited understanding of natural laws we are at many times bereft of the imagination and ignorant of posibilities.

It can be as simple as using a plastic moulding from an old batery casing to use as a peg to support a wooden shelf. (A real example by the way eliciting mentions of MacGyver from my friends who were helping me move my furniture, after discovering that we had lost the peg in transport.)

Using our sugary friends as an example we can imagine that certain combinations of lego blocks which had allowed resistance to dessication had the fortunate(or unfortunate depending on how you look at it) side effect of allowing this ring to "steal" sugary molecules from neighbors, once reintroduced to a more humid environment.

In the original example windy regions are dominated by a type of sugar ring simply because the resulting moldings made them less resistant to being blown away.

Perhaps one example from real world biology would be the co-opting of existing bone structures to form the mamilian inner ear.

In short natural selection is not something we can easily trace or imagine as it appears to be a myraid of physical Eureka moments. Deducing the actual pathway requires something close to infinite imagination and complete knowledge of the physical posibilities.

Unless of course we just stumble onto the solution, ala Edison.

angel wrote:Now the specific question is, can you spot which of the following is made by my limited intelligence and which is random?

No.
According to Wikipedia, ID'ists look for ""signs of intelligence" — physical properties of an object that they assert necessitate design. The most commonly cited signs include irreducible complexity, information mechanisms, and specified complexity." I don't think your strings qualify as irreducibly complex. They certainly can be interpreted as containing information and having some specified complexity, but I think they are too short to come to any reliable conclusion. ID does not claim that every object of design can be identified as such, only that some can. In information theory random numbers are those which cannot be compressed (Wikipedia) which is not necessarily at odds with design. In the more basic mathematical sense, random numbers are just those where every possibility has the same probability. It is impossible to look at a few numbers and determine if they are random. And generating tables of random numbers is also extremely difficult.
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£ïóÒÚÄ¡f+õb¿[H^#‹¿üIqÆõ;

Ok, fair enough. I'll post longer strings.

At least one of the following 10 blocks (of 1920 characters each) contains both complex specified information and irreducible complexity.
The other blocks do not contain any IC or CSI (or anyway considerably less that the "intelligent designed blocks").

Can someone identify the "IDblocks" better than guessing?
Or explain me how to do?
[if you need longer strings I can post quite a number of Gigs! ]


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112121232222321443241234332344144411241313121424331134241112
313233241443123344243343111413243114324114131423212122122233
333244124132321234432341431113222312123442411414324112323443
343424211422222443223311121333231444231112412443313324444312
121342141124341223211234443324244411221221222224223424324123
432231421111132224311432211422213434144233112133124211113322
224223211221132313414244312214412143433134241421343231242322
342114231232133313134321334433413423242142433323112112431444
412244424324422221121214414321221342342443443343214233433444
141111433143134432233414112212124244123341233333142411141444
322431443232131443323321131123114413444224124112341443431434
124124341143431434142322112433141222334332233112412142334224
424314232213334212221222343421112123423221421233234441434133
242211123223431233113242224331123212214134222144244334413311
324231213414423313221314434341124312211321114223233242441414
234342143243223114311321444143124432413421444422332133141443
121423214134343133421221212133221311112141444223324442123313
124233321144431344314133244414341231231222112133122441141144
434144414223443433323211444434131341314142422211133234242344
343133344234224434123311442143323241434312124134314434333131
141444412431231442411333431112133442432143313242213241321244
413321324142112443342241431411421224141323121312333313312411
142132214112333311214342124113131243412314413143341333434413
412233344143122413134121244213322342342233332421213342214314
421443142212331442112411422313111221141144212424341421442222
312114234114122211143314211241321121212434112411141421123421
421243313113431411123131334343411422141114422424144343413244
343213221434243431231331314443221231122331111133322441421344
114243334231314411334242121224441222212123133134421221144313
324331123414443213343232143124221342143131211134221341414231
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
313223313233311134413243133231212231223134433114233213211444
212234214114333122124331112214244431112113313431321343223434
114333141424134431142444231132441333131414422322441144113233
431223433331124143414143423141123114221134212234112313243211
422142321113231121111112313321424221224231224421111124421144
431314121423122124332431112314234322423223244222143413441321
241424112221232413424422434221242414344132134411324422413412
243322141443243131112222323322132341331423212342431432323213
331123213414112331414213233121442341414133332331324124232414
412342334224333343334142111344313113311434231424244414123444
142334311142324231324111134341444422123122224312234442434443
313132122142234313214333331322341343131313424114333434134432
142343143224244323241412233432233431222211242224223442241113
334412142311422131233421133433124423411323413121234441212224
133132214114212121324131111314113311224423232432213213241242
314421114311231334334332424242311432211144142414432243141424
143211412441134213311223144324412124312112324322442223333221
444131213441342411311413414432412431134112113141422221312343
133341432434333141242433333131341141321114124442213243133432
223414123414332322142442211141343121112214424434314121412423
312122242241331412324324322243311141233214114223213322312412
113143211121332334141124144133321311233232214132241334333343
443223334332232234211141243333434442121312221414241413444111
334214311422141231443421232121334122223222344221321322143323
311233334231132432323332224321241124134421311121423321424434
111243234431441221241311222234413422124344324312433342111144
211234341244331412332332212324122343133434123131114422421222
423312331413321231124331123412233322224331323343342424424343
121223133411413412313144214442123441142443111133224211123234
224412433334144124431124324423344214442333221134214214443142
324134214431122331232242112244241222231234232312212443114141
314222424411211312223214313443334312322112211143331212432133
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
224421223311244321214111213324222123324324212413323143141411
412421323421113113312443414442324342143144111333121313143123
123322314314423321213234111444312314124232414124432314314344
223414234141413234312113424434133212144424113222232113113344
242311422434114324211222442311443244112241313213413231223113
234312332423133441434414342443423332111213314112421434444322
324133141433242141141323423223443331232312121113121413444333
424444233144242333222312214324412243432232422134243232131124
232344344142244122124423322334422423213142223131113431344144
121211311212133121131221414334243324321341122212222141423114
343243331131423141413142121232332411242131143143231323344143
414222413114231232131211443421124422242143411142143331341223
413433113332441243222422443124444411231234323423231112243423
424314311114341232341232144442322434342111231324324244334113
213332142432341124232212313434442343334222414242423141313112
322431424321221431443321414412414211142212411242143422441414
244411342431221133342442222424223133142211132113423322213144
314133414231211433313421241443443134433231432421131214234423
222122321121344124244412334221314443121422421412133242131411
321134444123331434444232233311222332112123433114413121441411
431244113211223323243144121123131233441313122421343112111422
112433213234311334124243131143421421431413243122413132344133
222141331234222422313424322431333132432424342223324343411443
313332233412234434431143134142432213322413341324432234341433
342323113423313314212144132431131111212213221322313413414311
342413244143144313313334144344422223441211123313311213211441
343313443344132342421344143323411211134412432212132144424214
144111241244443414323413113142122244133431414142331122314422
333324441122432131243123422344141212344212344423141141144323
332411124232322344243413242134413144223334341211133321342141
333131432342332121443333413333213113144124412132434443222414
434241323212343132122434241124342133323222411313233134424322

To be fair, nothing can be determined without context.
No real world examples are of random strings alone.

For instance in DNA we know that the strands encode for proteins.

Regarding the number sequences:

I doubt seriously that few people could identify 1 of the 10 by simple visual examination.

As Bgood states, there needs to be context to the problem.

That not withstanding, the way to go about this would be to develop a string algorithm with the perameters (which is the context) of what you were looking for (or what you are excluding) and then run it and interpret the results. It might require a few tweaks and reruns as you better identify what the delineating factors are.

Interpretting the string so identified in the end would be the kicker.

It's one thing to identify a pattern consistent with intelligent design. It is another to translate it and prove what it means. All it proves is intentional arrangement to some purpose which may or may not be known.

People knew for many years that ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics were in fact a form of written language, but it wasn't until the Rosetta Stone was discovered that they were translated.

Obviously more than simple translation is involved here, but it illustrates the point.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Regarding the number sequences:

I doubt seriously that few people could identify 1 of the 10 by simple visual examination.

As Bgood states, there needs to be context to the problem.

That not withstanding, the way to go about this would be to develop a string algorithm with the perameters (which is the context) of what you were looking for (or what you are excluding) and then run it and interpret the results. It might require a few tweaks and reruns as you better identify what the delineating factors are.

Interpretting the string so identified in the end would be the kicker.

It's one thing to identify a pattern consistent with intelligent design. It is another to translate it and prove what it means. All it proves is intentional arrangement to some purpose which may or may not be known.

People knew for many years that ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics were in fact a form of written language, but it wasn't until the Rosetta Stone was discovered that they were translated.

Obviously more than simple translation is involved here, but it illustrates the point.

This brings up an interesting point, why was the heiroglyphic language no longer interpretable, and where did it originate from?

Did it spring from the mind of a genius or was it more likely a long process of change and modification which lead to the style we now know as classical heiroglyphics?

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Regarding the number sequences:

I doubt seriously that few people could identify 1 of the 10 by simple visual examination.

As Bgood states, there needs to be context to the problem.

That not withstanding, the way to go about this would be to develop a string algorithm with the perameters (which is the context) of what you were looking for (or what you are excluding) and then run it and interpret the results. It might require a few tweaks and reruns as you better identify what the delineating factors are.

Interpretting the string so identified in the end would be the kicker.

It's one thing to identify a pattern consistent with intelligent design. It is another to translate it and prove what it means. All it proves is intentional arrangement to some purpose which may or may not be known.

People knew for many years that ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics were in fact a form of written language, but it wasn't until the Rosetta Stone was discovered that they were translated.

Obviously more than simple translation is involved here, but it illustrates the point.

This brings up an interesting point, why was the heiroglyphic language no longer interpretable, and where did it originate from?

Did it spring from the mind of a genius or was it more likely a long process of change and modification which lead to the style we now know as classical heiroglyphics?

I see that rabbit! Tally-Ho and release the hounds!

I'm hardly an expert in Egyptian, (although I do have some coptic, which is an Egyptian dialect that used the koine greek alphabet.)

I think the answer would lie somewhere in that they were symbolic pictures to which meaning attached. It would be easier to lose a thread of such knowledge in the past because those who could actually read and this transmit the knowledge were a very limited portion of the population and likely tied to a specific role such as the priesthood and/or scribes.

Most modern language is tied to Phoenicean descendent alphabets, the symbols of which were tied to an attempt to replicate the sound being made by a speaker, rather than a picture representing a concept.

Phonetic spelling of this nature is directed at the ear and the sounds (greek word is phonos) can be made independent of the understanding of the reader.

Heiroglyphics skipped this and went straight to the concept independent of the sound transmission and that would, in my opinion, have left them more open to the possibility of what did indeed happen.

Modern forms would be less susceptible to this situation than more ancient ones due to the advances in printing which increases the supply of examples, assuming they are still extant and also the increase in overall literacy which further reduces the chances of a repeat.

As to how it originated, I suspect it was a process. I believe there is reasonable grounds to identify many of the symbols as tied into the mythology and religious concepts of the Egyptian Pantheon. Exactly how those developed and why is open to speculation. We're only one generation removed from even being able to understand them in the first place!

That's my take on it anyway.

There's probably some analogous applications to be made in terms of the attempt to extrapolate from nature back to an Intelligent Designer.

It certainly illustrates the need for revelation to provide the key.

So whom is it that designed the modern English Language?

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:So whom is it that designed the modern English Language?

Ah. So that's where you're going.

The modern English language is "designed" collectively by those who spoke it in the past through its Germanic roots etc. until today and is a function of collectively agreed upon meaning to a majority of its speakers. As such, it is fluid and a product of constant change and adjustment. No one person obviously as such designed it but it obviously is the product of intelligence applied to the function of an agreed upon standard of communication.

If you're attempting to use the development of language as an analogy to demonstrate some inherent fallacy in the thinking of Intelligent Design as an overall theory, I fail to see the connection.

The medium of language hardly equates to the medium of physics and biology. Intelligent design in the purest sense does not necessarily equate such a designer or design process as being singular either.

I suspect you don't need a detailed history on the detail of the development of the English so why not dispense with the Socratic questions and say what's on your mind.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:So whom is it that designed the modern English Language?

1 word: evolution (of language, that is).

Canuckster1127 wrote:If you're attempting to use the development of language as an analogy to demonstrate some inherent fallacy in the thinking of Intelligent Design as an overall theory, I fail to see the connection.

The medium of language hardly equates to the medium of physics and biology. Intelligent design in the purest sense does not necessarily equate such a designer or design process as being singular either.

I suspect you don't need a detailed history on the detail of the development of the English so why not dispense with the Socratic questions and say what's on your mind.

I am not so sure I agree with you that there is no connection.

In the development of a language there is no designer, per se. Language survives by being passed down from generation to generation. What we have here is a system which has continuity yet allows for modification.

In the biological world we have the same type of system. Genetic material is passed down from generation to generation and there is a method of modification.

In both cases there are rules and requirements which prevent the system from becoming completely random. In genetics the restriction is a viable organism, and in the case of language the restriction is on the ability to comunicate.

As is the case with language there appears to be no underlying direction to the changes without respect to exterior conditions.

The beauty of this type of system is that it allows for the emergence of properties which no engineer could ever devise. As the knowledge of what is possible is inherent in the very things being modified.

As any engineer would attest nothing beats actually puting together a protype and testing it. Imagine being able to try every posible configuration and testing it.

In the future I am certain that quantum computing will take advantage of this and allow for the creation of marvelous new technologies which are a product of near-infinite testing techniques. It will only be limited to the ability of these systems to simulate reality.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:If you're attempting to use the development of language as an analogy to demonstrate some inherent fallacy in the thinking of Intelligent Design as an overall theory, I fail to see the connection.

The medium of language hardly equates to the medium of physics and biology. Intelligent design in the purest sense does not necessarily equate such a designer or design process as being singular either.

I suspect you don't need a detailed history on the detail of the development of the English so why not dispense with the Socratic questions and say what's on your mind.

I am not so sure I agree with you that there is no connection.

In the development of a language there is no designer, per se. Language survives by being passed down from generation to generation. What we have here is a system which has continuity yet allows for modification.

In the biological world we have the same type of system. Genetic material is passed down from generation to generation and there is a method of modification.

In both cases there are rules and requirements which prevent the system from becoming completely random. In genetics the restriction is a viable organism, and in the case of language the restriction is on the ability to communicate.

As is the case with language there appears to be no underlying direction to the changes without respect to exterior conditions.

Yes, but where did start? Where did it originate from? If it weren't for a bunch of intelligent Phoenicians 7,000 or so years ago in the city of Byblos (hey, I had to plug that in) we'd still be communicating in bird pictures and papyruses.

I highly doubt the phoenetic system came into existence fully blown and consciously. I would be willing to bet that this too had a pictographic origin.

Intelligence may have recognized it but is it really the origin of it? In other words you are equating the recognition and molding forces with origination.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:I highly doubt the phoenetic system came into existence fully blown and consciously. I would be willing to bet that this too had a pictographic origin.

Intelligence may have recognized it but is it really the origin of it? In other words you are equating the recognition and molding forces with origination.

I'm a little surprised you're attempting to draw a supportive analogy from language. Clearly, language is a result of intelligence and designed to communicate.

You seem to be seeking to use it to indicate a collective progressive intelligence rather than a specific one and as far as it goes, that is clearly true.

Intelligent Design as a theory however, does not claim to know the designer or even if there are many such designers in process.

That language has developed and continues to develop to meet the needs of those using the medium is pretty self-evident.

What is not self-evident is how physical organization which you've demonstrated, could translate into bilogical organization and then complicate further without some design or intelligent input.

Granted there is a large element where much is unknown and no doubt the question itself may be reframed as more information develops.

I think language fails to pass the laugh test in terms of analohous applicability in this case.