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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:47 pm
by BGoodForGoodSake
puritan lad wrote:Contrary to modern scare tactics and junk science, hormones and genetic engineering are some the best things to ever happen to food. That, however, is another debate and has nothing to do with the ethics of eating meat.

My motto matches a bumper sticker I used to have...

"I Love Animals...They're delicious!!!"
Yes this is true, use of hormones has drastically increased farm productivity.
And genetic engineering has improved quality of output.

But it does have something to do with ethics, it is within the realm of possibilities that genetic modifications could eventually reduce the independance of animals such as cattle, and reduce them to nothing more than a bizzare meaty vegetation.

And the use of hormones is equally unnatural. But are we willing to take a hit in current standards of living? Which is more important feeding the masses, or the rights of cattle?

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:37 pm
by Gman
Contrary to modern scare tactics and junk science, hormones and genetic engineering are some the best things to ever happen to food.
Documentation please.... By the way my mother died from DDT poisoning back in the 50's. It was heavily used in farms in Michigan and in other states. In fact my mother was told that she could wash her hands in it. Nice huh?

G -

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:05 pm
by BGoodForGoodSake
Gman wrote:
Contrary to modern scare tactics and junk science, hormones and genetic engineering are some the best things to ever happen to food.
Documentation please.... By the way my mother died from DDT poisoning back in the 50's. It was heavily used in farms in Michigan and in other states. In fact my mother was told that she could wash her hands in it. Nice huh?

G -
DDT is a pesticide not a hormone.

I think puritan lad is talking about the growth hormones used to fatten up cattle.

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:45 pm
by Gman
DDT is a pesticide not a hormone.


Really? Wow. Thanks for the clarification... I was really addressing the "so called" junk science he was alluding to. Pesticides, hormones, genetic engineering, have been know to cause certain mutations in the body which could cause certain diseases or cancers. Hmmm, could it be that what we eat is why we are so unhealthy? No couldn't be true. And radiation doesn't really cause cancer... Is that what people believe?

eating meat

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:33 pm
by victoria brady
Hi everyone,

So glad we are all talking about this. Its better than not talking at all.

Anyway I have read a couple of good books some are very radical and some are very logical.

Dominion ( The power of man the suffering of animals and a call to mercy)
really good book. It does not promote vegetarianism it is very informative.
It is biblical based in a moral ethical way. Written by Matthew Scully.

If you have a strong stomach Slaughter House by Gail A. Eisnitz she is an investigator. The book is an eye opener not only to the suffering of mass produced animals but to the workers of these places and how they are exploited in there own words. Tons of interviews from all over the country.

Also a good web site that does not promote vegetarianism but sustainable farms where you can buy meat and eggs that are humanly treated. They give you all kinds of info. Just incase your interested.http://www.factoryfarm.org

Thank you so much all of you this is not easy to talk about and all of you have truly been good listeners and supportive in your caring and I thank God for that.

I am very sorry if I have offended you. It needs to be looked into so I can not help myself. If you can not depend on Gods men to do something then there is no hope. We are the salt of the earth (and not just for steak).

thanks God bless

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:52 am
by Gman
Victoria, you haven't offended us. At least not me... You bring up some very valid points. And remember, it always takes a good woman to steer us men in the right direction we get off track.. After all, we hate asking for directions...

So thanks,

G -

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:52 pm
by BGoodForGoodSake
Gman wrote:
DDT is a pesticide not a hormone.


Really? Wow. Thanks for the clarification... I was really addressing the "so called" junk science he was alluding to. Pesticides, hormones, genetic engineering, have been know to cause certain mutations in the body which could cause certain diseases or cancers. Hmmm, could it be that what we eat is why we are so unhealthy? No couldn't be true. And radiation doesn't really cause cancer... Is that what people believe?
You can't just lump these all together, I think that is exactly the "junk science" he was reffering to.

Genetic Modification is a modification of the animals genome, liken it to accelerated breeding programs. The only "mutations" are the ones artificially introduced to the animal genome and it is done by gene splicing. Taking existing genes from another source.

Hormone treatment effects the levels of hormones found in the animal which changes the biochemistry of the organism, these hormones can potentially enter our systems by eating these foods. It can have unforseen consequences.

Radiation can and does cause mutations which could lead to cancer, however the effects are random, radiation in general will wreak havok to organic chemicals, causing them to become damaged or break down.

Pesticides act like radiation in that they can break down organic compounds, others interfere in chemical pathways.

There are pros and cons to the use of hormones in animals.
Genetic modification if used wisely will only speed up the breeding programs humans have been conducting for thousands of years.

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:07 pm
by victoria brady
Thanks G.man,


I am sorry about your mom. I know it was a long time ago but losing a parent is hard.

You must have been young when she died since it was 56 years ago.:cry:

I am grateful that you seem to understand where I am coming from. I think I may have given the impression that we should not eat meat from all the scriptures I have been seeing. That was not my intension and you seemed to understand that right away.

I am not coming with false doctrines saying we should not eat meat because it is poison or unhealthy that is what that scripture says to me. That people will say things like stay away from chicken cause it will make you sterile.(stupid analogy) but thats the point.

Boycotting is exactly my point thanks for putting it so simply. Though meat can be very exspensive from those farms thats why I don't even bother.

I do buy fish as long as it is wild not farmed and eggs that are free range and I try not to over do it. Anyway thank you and God bless.


vicky

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:20 pm
by Gman
You can't just lump these all together, I think that is exactly the "junk science" he was reffering to.
Sure you can... Whether it's pesticides, hormones, radiation, genetic engineering, dyes, chemicals, pollution or anything man made. Whenever you tamper with God's creation and try conform it to your standards, there is a chance (not always...) of a repercussion for it. And if you don't see the results of it now, you could see the results of it in the future... Like planting seeds in a field, you harvest in one season and in another season you see them grow. Scientist that are unaware of this think they can play God, but when problems come up, you can never find them.

Of couse when test are done (on certain chemicals) not everyone responds the same way as someone else. Some people are not affected while others ARE affected.

G -

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:03 pm
by Gman
By the way for clarification of what I was saying earlier, DDT back then was heavily used. It wasn't until later that they found it to be harmful. Today it's genetic engineering or hormones... (or whatever). It just seems that there are better ways than putting poisens into our bodies. But then again, if you are ok with it, then go for it. But not this guy... Of course, you can never really run away from it totally.

By the way, sorry victoria, I wasn't ignoring you. She actually died in the early 80's. But is was from the DDT poisening she had in the 50's. None of my relatives that worked in the farms at that time are not living today because of this. Maybe that is why this really upsets me...

G -

reply to your overly strong reply

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:33 am
by bluesman
It has taken me some time to reply to the last post. I had to wait until I could be civil.


Its taken sometime to see that you replied to my post.
I think you totally misunderstand what I posted way back on page 1.

First you should know that I am not speaking just from a lay persons point
on animals. Although it my brother, wife, father-inlaw that have more knowledge in the farming area. My area is more the wildlife, and resource use. I could address more to hunting, fishing, and trapping, etc.
I could go on and on about what is happening. I dont need peta to tell me all I need is a brain and willingness to find out.


My point was that groups like Peta should not be believed. Use your own brain and find the truth yourself. Peta and groups like them can and do use pictures that are bloody to arose response. Yet even a picture doesn't tell the whole story. Even the books you read could be or may not be telling the whole and/or true story.
Oh yea buy the way the pigs cows and chickens are not dog food. They are living breathing feeling beings who have more of a purpose then to be our dinner.


Okay Victoria Brady, this was your reply to what I said. Now this is actually what I said

"PS Meat from local small farmers taste so much better than that mass produced "dog food" meat on the big operations."

I was talking about the taste of the meat from what you call factory farms.
I buy my meat by "the side" or whole cow or pig. The meat I eat comes from the smaller operations and let me tell you other meat -eaters that the taste and quality is superior.

Lets see what else I said
"Eating organic is great. Buying from small local farms and farmers markets is great. "

Look I don't really support these huge factory farms. If a person has the choice where and what to buy I am saying go the organic and/or farmers market route. Its better for you and the quality is better.

Now something else I said
"With eating veggies ask yourself something. How good for the environment is all the chemicals used to grow these food? "

Its not really direct at you , because I don't know enough about you.
However, some people who support the idea of vegetarism, don't know the whole picture. Every choice , everything we use or eat has an impact on the environment. To think in "black and white" that refusing meat and eating veggies is better, would be ignorant. My point is Have you looked into the impacts of the non-meat foods we eat.

Now because man wants large amounts of food as cheap as possible its led to these large factory farms. One way you can not support the "suffering"
is to chose where you buy your food. However, you going to pay a lot more to eat.

One point to think on is that "quality" treatment of animals is better for business of even these factory farms. There is quality of taste for one.
If poor treatment leads to sickness how is that good for business? Even these big farms don't want that. Most farmers wish they could farm the way they wanted, but they wouldn't survive. So it gets to be a balancing act of production and quality.

Now your living in New York. I would guess your in the lower part of the state? If you feel so strongly on this topic I would suggest to take a trip to
maybe the top of New York state. See for yourself what farming is about.

Do we need to improve treatment of animals ? YES! Does suffering exist? Yes! Should we stop eating meat? No
Is everything we read on the internet and in books about animal suffering true? No.

I love animals, I love our environment. I hate to see suffering.
However, I have to look at the bigger picture.

Michael
Thomas

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:22 am
by Gman
Whoops, sorry BGoodForGoodSake. I see your points more clearly in the global warming talk.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/ab ... asc-0.html

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:23 pm
by puritan lad
Gman,

First of all, any food that you eat already has hormones in it, so they are hardly poison. If anything, hormones have produced healthier, longer lasting, more nutricious, more disease-resistant food. Hormones beat famine and food poisoning anyday.

And contrary to popular belief, we are healthier and living longer than anytime in recent history. Maybe we should give credit where credit is due.

I won't go into the DDT issue here due to your personal loss, but we are talking about something totally different.

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:02 pm
by Gman
Howdy, I was refering to injecting livestock with hormones. If you want to eat animals that have been injected, then go ahead... You have your scientists and I have mine.

For me, by the way, the purpose of most farmers that do it is to make MONEY not feed the poor or save people from starvation. The only concern for them is MONEY.. They need more Hummers to drive around in.. As for me, they ain't getting my support.

G -

Hummers

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:11 am
by bluesman
For me, by the way, the purpose of most farmers that do it is to make MONEY not feed the poor or save people from starvation. The only concern for them is MONEY.. They need more Hummers to drive around in.. As for me, they ain't getting my support.


Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see many farmers driving around
in Hummers.
Now, I have seen quite a few Dentists driving one.
I don't think the farmer is geting rich. Its the big executives controlling the meat companies.

Michael
Thomas