Evidence for God from Science

Byblos wrote:If anyone expected things will be settled in a matter of months, even a few years, they are sadly and evidently mistaken. As to the future of Afghanistan and Iraq, I have no doubt that they are already better off and will be a thousand times better off than they were before. Democracy takes time and people essentially want to live in democracy (however they personally define it) and will strive to do so, but it will not happen over night.

I agree, and I think Japan is a perfect example - the best example really. They were completely 100% subjected to the rule of an Emperor who was near god-like status prior to the war... Societies do have the ability to change.

Felgar wrote:

Byblos wrote:If anyone expected things will be settled in a matter of months, even a few years, they are sadly and evidently mistaken. As to the future of Afghanistan and Iraq, I have no doubt that they are already better off and will be a thousand times better off than they were before. Democracy takes time and people essentially want to live in democracy (however they personally define it) and will strive to do so, but it will not happen over night.

I agree, and I think Japan is a perfect example - the best example really. They were completely 100% subjected to the rule of an Emperor who was near god-like status prior to the war... Societies do have the ability to change.

They do. However, Japan is an island surrounded comparatively isolated and subject to easier control of materials and persons crossing the border.

I support the decision and effort made in Iraq. I recognize there are some incredibly difficult dynamics to reverse however and at some point it has to arise and maintain from the Iraqis. I pray that it does and I pray as well that our own well-intentioned factions in the US who see this as a political football, despite the fact that the votes were bipartisan to go in, can see beyond the rhetoric and not lose sight of the goal.

And you think that's what George Bush is doing? Trying to convert nations?

It doesn't matter what I think or you think as we are not the atheists.
The original question of the thread is how to deal with the objection of an atheist with the goal of removing it as a barrier to his accepting of Christ.

I could use some help with an arguement I've seen quite often. The atheist puts forth that the view that religion is dangerous. Religion has slaughtere untold numberss innocent people, etc.

The atheist then put forths the view that no one has killed in "the name of atheism".

Anyone have input on the view?

I support the decision and effort made in Iraq. I recognize there are some incredibly difficult dynamics to reverse however and at some point it has to arise and maintain from the Iraqis.

The original question doesn't deal with what you think or what you support. However, my understanding of the Bible , is that it teaches that there will not be lasting peace in the region until the return of Jesus Christ. Of course there will be the false peace set up by the "Anti-Christ"
I do have a theory that God has meant for this war and that it will lead to Iraq and Iran united in the "End Days". Anyways, the history of conflict in the region has a past way into biblical times that I don't believe man can change it. I think thats up to God and the second-coming.

Thats what I think. However, as I stated before thats not the question.
What does our enemy think of it? The enemy of the western world and the enemy of Christians is not going away. They will only twist the story to recruit more people. Our action may have been right and just, but still we have played into their hands.
Just recently a plot to attack Canada (Toronto) was foiled and arrests made.

Now its not even so much what that extremists thinks as he only twists the truth anyways. What matters is what the atheist thinks that we are trying to lead to Christ or least change him/her to agnostic.

"We Have No Right to Ask the World to Believe our Message unless there is Something about Us that is Unexplainable and Supernatural.
There Must Be a Divine Dimension to Our Lives"

Michael Thomas

bluesman wrote:

And you think that's what George Bush is doing? Trying to convert nations?

It doesn't matter what I think or you think as we are not the atheists.
The original question of the thread is how to deal with the objection of an atheist with the goal of removing it as a barrier to his accepting of Christ.

I could use some help with an arguement I've seen quite often. The atheist puts forth that the view that religion is dangerous. Religion has slaughtere untold numberss innocent people, etc.

The atheist then put forths the view that no one has killed in "the name of atheism".

Anyone have input on the view?

I support the decision and effort made in Iraq. I recognize there are some incredibly difficult dynamics to reverse however and at some point it has to arise and maintain from the Iraqis.

The original question doesn't deal with what you think or what you support. However, my understanding of the Bible , is that it teaches that there will not be lasting peace in the region until the return of Jesus Christ. Of course there will be the false peace set up by the "Anti-Christ"
I do have a theory that God has meant for this war and that it will lead to Iraq and Iran united in the "End Days". Anyways, the history of conflict in the region has a past way into biblical times that I don't believe man can change it. I think thats up to God and the second-coming.

Thats what I think. However, as I stated before thats not the question.
What does our enemy think of it? The enemy of the western world and the enemy of Christians is not going away. They will only twist the story to recruit more people. Our action may have been right and just, but still we have played into their hands.
Just recently a plot to attack Canada (Toronto) was foiled and arrests made.

Now its not even so much what that extremists thinks as he only twists the truth anyways. What matters is what the atheist thinks that we are trying to lead to Christ or least change him/her to agnostic.

"We Have No Right to Ask the World to Believe our Message unless there is Something about Us that is Unexplainable and Supernatural.
There Must Be a Divine Dimension to Our Lives"

Michael Thomas

Our enemy thinks that death is welcome and will usher in paradise populated with willing young, nubile virgins awaiting their every desire.

If, as I think you indicated above, these are not the atheists you are referring to, then please identify these atheists on the sidelines, where they are and why George Bush and the United States should factor them in to make decisions of National Policy.

Canuckster , you have taken this in some other direction than the original
question.
I don't wish to debate George Bush and his policies.
The question was never about Bush and/or Islam.
Our enemies are wide and varied.
Atheists come in many different colours and sizes and mind sets.
Actually, its the agnostic and not the atheist we wish to engage in discussion.

We were talking about atheists right here in North America who see the violent history and also current behavior of Christians as an objection or barrier to faith in Jesus Christ.

Michael
Thomas

All fanaticism is dangerous.
Be it religious or atheist.

It isn't religion or lack of it that gets people slaughtered, it's to do with power.
Religion can be used as a power tool. As can many things.

LadyHel wrote:All fanaticism is dangerous.
Be it religious or atheist.

It isn't religion or lack of it that gets people slaughtered, it's to do with power.
Religion can be used as a power tool. As can many things.

I'd rather be a crazed happy loving fanatic than a dangerous evil one..

Good article: http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html

despite what he claimed, Hitler was the embodiment of evil and just because one evil man claims to be Christian, doesn't mean that all men who claim to be Christian are evil.

Not responding directly to this point, but anyway..................

Has anyone brought up the fact that the United States was founded by Christians? I hear it all the time when the subject of separtion of church and state comes up........yet everyone seems to gloss over that fact when we talk about the owning, beating, and raping of slaves and the near mass genocide of American Indians.

Responding directly to the OP, abuse of religion HAS lead to many many atrocities in the world, however I will contend that it is used mainly as a vehicle to motivate one group of people to eradicate another. IMO, though Hitler claimed to be a Christian, I would hardly consider that a religious cause. That had more to do with singling out other "groups" and destroying them.

The Nazis, in and of themselves, IMO served as a radical group similar to that of a radical "religious" group....accept they followed an extreme ideology that was not directly associated with a belief in a diety.

The point that the athiest typically attempts to make with their argument is as a counter to the idea that religious groups are "moral" while athiests are without morals. These very same groups of "moral" people have, time and time again, been abused and manipulated into commiting grossly immoral acts.

1. We are not particularly interested in defending "religion". We are defenders of Christianity, so the debate should be about that. Ask for very specific accounts of killing in the name of Christianity that amount to their claims of "untold numbers".
2. Make the atheists explain why killing is wrong from their worldview. They must account for where they got their concept of right and wrong from, and how they personally know something is wrong.

I don't want to spend to much time on point number 2 as I have, in the past, spent days debating that point only to get nowhere. I'll simply state that a sense of goodness has more to do with culture, environment, and genetics than it does with religion. An athiest can't give you a simple black and white answer as to where their concept of "good" comes from, yet they still...at a rate higher then those who claim to be religious....behave in a manner that our American culture deems "good." Search religon and prisons for some stats.

You have to decide is it better to fly a plane into a building because you think you are serving the good of God (or Alah) or is it better to rescue a baby from a burning building as a secular humanist.

Having gotten that out of the way, by the same token your second point serves as a double edged sword. While the religious person often believes that the athiest is more likely to do wrong because he is without consequence, the athiest is also resistent to moral manipulation since he is left to use his own judgement rather than to....say....lead into the crusades to defeat the evil muslims.

You must provide more information regarding your information regarding prison and religion.

Are you simply referring to correlation studies between those in prison and their beliefs?

Correlation studies are not the most dependable, especially when it comes to asking people what religion they are.

Simply asking somebody what their religion is does not adequately express what they live their life by, for many their religion is nothing more than their heritage, lile somebody saying they are German or English or Hispanic. Their religious affiliation is nothing more than a cultural identifier, not a true reflection on what they believe (and by belief it would be understood a true act of giving their life to Christ).

Thus, a study pointing out that most people in prison say that they are Baptist, or Methodist, or some other Christian denomination might simply reflect their upbringing but not a true understanding of what this belief requires.

If this is not what you are referring to, then please specify, else you would ask us to do ridiculous searches.

banky wrote:An athiest can't give you a simple black and white answer as to where their concept of "good" comes from, yet they still...at a rate higher then those who claim to be religious....behave in a manner that our American culture deems "good." Search religon and prisons for some stats.

at a rate higher? you better provide your resources. (plus the same arguement applies to those who claim they are religious, thus we have a major experimental design flaw)

An atheist's position that they have morality only extends to the point until somebody else disagrees with them about their position of morality. With no fundamental agreement on what is right, an atheist society must depend on...majorioty rules?
I might feel justified in cheating on taxes....how could any society where, as long as you deem that there is not moral absolute, have any justice? I could cheat from your homework, I feel it is right....

Most people might agree on the big things such as murder, rape, child abuse, sexual abuse ( although try telling those at NAMBLA that what they are doing is wrong, how would you justify such a claim? That it's obvious it's wrong? To them it's completely obvious that it's right)

Lying, cheating, adultery, rudeness...? Pornography? Christ was very clear that even looking at a woman with lust in your heart is wrong, but how do you then claim something is innappropriate if you have no basis for absolutes?

Still a society that has no basis for determining what is right other than a "sense" of morality has no way of justifying any decision... "I feel bad when I do this?" What happens when some don't feel bad when they steal? how can you then justify sending them to jail? to them this might be their right?

zoegirl wrote:You must provide more information regarding your information regarding prison and religion.

Are you simply referring to correlation studies between those in prison and their beliefs?

Correlation studies are not the most dependable, especially when it comes to asking people what religion they are.

Simply asking somebody what their religion is does not adequately express what they live their life by, for many their religion is nothing more than their heritage, lile somebody saying they are German or English or Hispanic. Their religious affiliation is nothing more than a cultural identifier, not a true reflection on what they believe (and by belief it would be understood a true act of giving their life to Christ).

Thus, a study pointing out that most people in prison say that they are Baptist, or Methodist, or some other Christian denomination might simply reflect their upbringing but not a true understanding of what this belief requires.

If this is not what you are referring to, then please specify, else you would ask us to do ridiculous searches.

banky wrote:An athiest can't give you a simple black and white answer as to where their concept of "good" comes from, yet they still...at a rate higher then those who claim to be religious....behave in a manner that our American culture deems "good." Search religon and prisons for some stats.

at a rate higher? you better provide your resources. (plus the same arguement applies to those who claim they are religious, thus we have a major experimental design flaw)

An atheist's position that they have morality only extends to the point until somebody else disagrees with them about their position of morality. With no fundamental agreement on what is right, an atheist society must depend on...majorioty rules?
I might feel justified in cheating on taxes....how could any society where, as long as you deem that there is not moral absolute, have any justice? I could cheat from your homework, I feel it is right....

Most people might agree on the big things such as murder, rape, child abuse, sexual abuse ( although try telling those at NAMBLA that what they are doing is wrong, how would you justify such a claim? That it's obvious it's wrong? To them it's completely obvious that it's right)

Lying, cheating, adultery, rudeness...? Pornography? Christ was very clear that even looking at a woman with lust in your heart is wrong, but how do you then claim something is innappropriate if you have no basis for absolutes?

Still a society that has no basis for determining what is right other than a "sense" of morality has no way of justifying any decision... "I feel bad when I do this?" What happens when some don't feel bad when they steal? how can you then justify sending them to jail? to them this might be their right?

I have worked in the Criminal Justice system and have done assessment. You cannot statically measure if someone is a Christian based on Jail house records. Majority of inmates simply and mindlessly cite what religion their family claims to follow in hopes it will look good on their day at court. Nothing more. Some militant Atheists use this stat to make Christians out as criminal deviants.

The best way to judge how many Christians are in the USA is to sit out on a street corner in your own neighborhood on a Sunday and watch how many people are really going to Church. Most likely — about 1 to 3 percent do. Next, locate all the Churches in your City and find out what the seating capacity is and average attendance is. Total city wide population cannot fit in the total seating capacity of all Churches and house of worship even if all are filled and all have double services. Usual Church attendance usually runs around 2/3 to ½ full.

You are lucky if 10 to 15 percent of City wide population even goes to Church on Saturday or Sunday. Next conduct a phone poll and ask religious affiliation and discover how skewed statically their answers are to those actually attending Church.

Next measure the culture appetites of those in your City — compile all the data and tell me we live in a Christian Nation???

Most likley discover that American Idol is more popular than God!

This would be an interesting survey technique to do to test. I am dealing with averages here you can find from long web searches — you can find this data on you own.
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I would just count how many were carrying bibles.

FFC wrote:I would just count how many were carying bibles.

Yes and that too!!!

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FFC wrote:I would just count how many were carrying bibles.

hmmm I would disagree with that. I don't take my Bible to Church half the time because I like paying attention to the Sermon and usually they have the Scripture up on the screen. That way I don't get distracted from the Message by reading my Bible

I know I know you were just Joking