Evidence for God from Science

Two of the more difficult problems standing in my way of commiting myself to Christianity are pornography and my general frustration with people.

I've been looking at porn on the computer since I was about thirteen years old. It was simple stuff back then as my mind was being introduced to it. Simple things "did the trick" if I can say it like that. Now I'm knee deep in all sorts of terrible things which often take over my thoughts during the day.

It's such a difficult battle against it. Since I became more educated in Christianity I can realize to the full extent of how terrible it is to continue looking at it. Each time I do (I've been unsuccesful at quitting) I simply tell myself that it's wrong or I counter the guilt with atheistic thoughts. I'll often think "Oh, there's no God. There's no Hell. It's all religious make believe..." and then I can sin in peace of mind. It's horrible.

I would really like to quit but since our society is so open to everything now it's almost impossible to avoid nudity and sex. Consider most TV shows which are now under the parental guiding rating -- they all include many references to sex whether said or unspoken.

Atticus Finch wrote:Two of the more difficult problems standing in my way of commiting myself to Christianity are pornography and my general frustration with people.

I've been looking at porn on the computer since I was about thirteen years old. It was simple stuff back then as my mind was being introduced to it. Simple things "did the trick" if I can say it like that. Now I'm knee deep in all sorts of terrible things which often take over my thoughts during the day.

It's such a difficult battle against it. Since I became more educated in Christianity I can realize to the full extent of how terrible it is to continue looking at it. Each time I do (I've been unsuccesful at quitting) I simply tell myself that it's wrong or I counter the guilt with atheistic thoughts. I'll often think "Oh, there's no God. There's no Hell. It's all religious make believe..." and then I can sin in peace of mind. It's horrible.

I would really like to quit but since our society is so open to everything now it's almost impossible to avoid nudity and sex. Consider most TV shows which are now under the parental guiding rating -- they all include many references to sex whether said or unspoken.

Atticus, I hear ever word you are saying. It is just as hard for Christians if we don't lean fully on Christ for this sin. The flesh will always try to get it's way. I'm certainly no poster boy for victory in this area, but I do feel God at work in my struggles when I focus on Him and surrender to His awsome power.

FFC wrote:
Atticus, I hear ever word you are saying. It is just as hard for Christians if we don't lean fully on Christ for this sin. The flesh will always try to get it's way. I'm certainly no poster boy for victory in this area, but I do feel God at work in my struggles when I focus on Him and surrender to His awsome power.

The most terrible part of it is that it's almost an addiction for me at this point. I don't disrespect women, or falsely assume a perverted relationship with one is the normal route. I've had girlfriends and I never thought of the perverted things which I'd watch at home. This is the spiritual and loving aspect of being with someone. Once you feel romantic love for a person it's impossible to include perverted lust. For myself it is at least.

Has anyone seen the film Broken Flowers with Bill Murray? It's not very christian ( what is anymore?) but it was still a decent movie with a slightly interesting philosophical message. There's a scene no longer than a minute where a girl is fully nude. It is a total shock in its placing and has been called that year's most erotic moment in film or something similar to that. The image is locked in my mind. I don't want it to be there, I wish it would vanish and never return because it feels like a dark plague spreading throughout my mind.

I recently heard someone say that it's not an addiction that can be quit. It's not like a drug where one can distance himself from it. A perverted mind will pervert things very pure, therefore leaving nowhere absent of it.

Atticus Finch wrote:A perverted mind will pervert things very pure, therefore leaving nowhere absent of it.

Except girlfriends...right? Because you said,

Atticus Finch wrote:I don't disrespect women, or falsely assume a perverted relationship with one is the normal route. I've had girlfriends and I never thought of the perverted things which I'd watch at home. This is the spiritual and loving aspect of being with someone. Once you feel romantic love for a person it's impossible to include perverted lust. For myself it is at least.

I must admit I recognize it...

Speaking of which, I love this quote from The Brothers Karamazow.

F.M. Dostoyevski wrote:'We are of a broad, Karamazovian nature--and this is what I am driving at--capable of containing all possible opposites and of contemplating both abysses at once, the abyss above us, an abyss of lofty ideals, and the abyss beneath us, an abyss of the lowest and foulest degradation...'

It may help to think of the whole thing -- and that includes other areas of sin as well -- as something weak and pathetic. Glenn Miller puts it quite lyrically here:

Glenn Miller wrote:So, just because I didn't feel any part of Jesus' experience of pain on the Cross, doesn't mean that my death 'in Him' and 'with Him' is any less a death of my old character-self. On the contrary, my Old Self—in this death—becomes 'trapped in finitude' and severed from God (a 'curse'). It's days become 'numbered'—it has no future. It begins to weaken and lose its power over the “I-who-is-glenn”. It begins to be ridiculed and de-valued and despised by the New Glenn. Its arguments and desires are largely ignored and resisted and trivialized, and increasingly so as the New Self gets stronger. It is not taken into consideration in decisions and trade-offs and plans for the future. It appears pathetic to the New Self, a twisted creature, self-absorbed, petty, tantrum-making, pouting, petulant, infantile. While the New Self dances in child-like wonder and abandon, it sulks and grabs at the toys to keep from sharing with others. Its occasional victories over the New Self (Gal 5.17), are minor and hollow, unsustainable, localized, only-skin-deep, and destined to prove pointless. It cannot command, it can only try to persuade or cajole—it is toothless, without the power it once had, without a hope of ever being a 'player' again…It is 'sterile', destined to be the last of its line—by the 'sterility' of its death at the Cross (smile)… It is dried chaff, a lifeless husk, an abandoned layer of snake-skin, to be blown away by the wind someday.

And, to top it all off, it has to share, for a little while longer, this glenn-body with the Spirit of the Living God, and the Jesus-looking New Me! Its self-absorbed enslaved misery watches the dancing of glenn's hopes, the slow-but-real healing of glenn's heart, the joy of trusting finally (at least a little…smile), the freedom to focus on others first—and the freedom that comes from doing so, the incandescence of those increasingly-pure moral choices, the searing heat (to it, that is—its only actually soft warmth) of increasing love and compassion in this New Self, and a thousand other delights from the Author of LIFE…

'Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.' -- Matthew 11:28

Atticus,

I appreciate the honesty and openness that you are expressing in this area, and I believe it deserves a thoughtful and substantive answer.

Pornography and sexual addiction are an extremely prevelent problem in western society and it is prevelent and problematic within many elements of the Church as well.

I know as a man, a former pastor and district official and a Church elder etc, that this is no small problem. Estimates from reliable sources indicate that about 15 - 25% of pastors have been involved with internet pornography to varying levels, some very high. Elders within evangelical Churches indicate similar levels.

Some of what I have to say is controversial, because first and foremost what we are talking about it lust, and lust clearly is sin. There's a strong psychological faction that treats this as a disease or disorder and doesn't address it as sin, and frankly there is rightfully some concern within the Church that this type of approach is counterproductive and avoids dealing clearly with the sin element.

My position and experience is to see it as sin, to be dealt with Biblically. Where the use of psychology does not conflict with the Bible first and foremost, I think it is important to use every tool for better understanding and recovery.

Baed on this view, this is what I see.

The statistics are overwhelming. The dollar figure on the porn industry as I've mentioned other places in the US is more than all professional sports combined. It is easily one of the largest industries. Further, technology has made it accessible.

There is an addictive element to this behavior. Physical studies show that the brain produces endorphins at high levels when viewing porn and the impact on the brain is not all that different than the effects of drugs such as cocaine and heroine. In view of that powerful impact, the experience is returned to again and again as an escape from stress, pain, boredom and for it's own sake.

Over time however, what worked before loses its power as it becomes more familiar. Harder images become sought after.

The porn industry understands this all too well. Why do you think so much is available for free on the internet? Do you think a multi-Billion dollar industry is doing this out of the goodness of their hearts?

They know, that there is an element of the population that will get "hooked" on this and seek harder and more frequent images. Those, they advertize on their free sites and introduce people to paying for longer movies, hard core and more personally interactive activities which people pay for and pay high prices. As mentioned, there's a lot of money to be made.

Is this sin? Yes. Is it an addiction. Some argue about it. I believe it can be an addiction. Perhaps the better terms for a Christian is "habitual sin."

The person caught up in it is miserable. They go through "binges" where they seemingly surrender all control and when that is done, they go into great remorse, feeling dirty, unworthy of God's love and often they swear off ever doing it again. They may throw away all magazines and clear all the images off their computer and swear they will never do it again and for a period of weeks or maybe even months keep that promise, but it is a struggle and then at some point, they will slip and binge and it happens all over again. Some eventually just give up, figuring they will never be able to beat this thing, or they are just a bad person or that God has given up on them.

I have some good news for that person, no matter where they are in that pattern. There are solutions. God does care. In fact, there is victory available that can come out of this that will make you a stronger Christian with some maturity in knowing how to rely on God and do what lies within you to struggle with this powerful element of sin.

Here's what I know from my own experiences and observations.

This is the sin of Lust and it is a powerful enemy. This is where Christianity becomes personal and far more practical in terms of who you will be and how you will live your life and by what power.

A lot of the discussions on this board are theoretical and talk about issues like how we are saved, and whether once saved we are always saved. Those are important. This however, is in many ways, far more practical.

What difference will Christianity make in your life? Is it just a spiritual decision inside of you, or will it permeate you and provide a means for you to live the Christian life and experience victory over this very real sin that wants to dominate you, keep you in defeat and make you into a hypocrite who has no self-respect nor can stand as a testimony to God when this is in control of his life?

That said, the truth is that there are some men, who have brought this to God and God in his mercy and sovereignty has take it away from them to where they no longer have the desire they once had to view and indulge in the sin of lust.

I say there are some men, but they are few.

For most men, myself included, this will be a struggle and a battle that requires:

1. Focus and trust upon God for his Strength to help us overcome.

2. Discipline in our devotional life to spend time with God, feed on His word and provide us with the resources we need to draw upon when faced with temptation and feeling weak.

3. Bonding together with men in the midst of similar struggles to hold one another accountible and provide encouragement and opportunity to drop the curtain to allow others to know us and help is where we are weak.

There are good resources out there to help make this happen.

Google for Everyman's Battle which is a ministry of New Life. They have books and seminars that I can recommend as helpful.

If this is a particularly powerful issue in your life and you need strong support, there are 12 step groups out there for this issue. Of the several out there, I recommend Sexaholics Anonymous as the one closest to a Biblical definition of sexual sobriety and which has a higher number of Christian men involved. There are some Churches with their own 12 step based group in this area as well, which you might have to search around for.

One thing I will say that I know to be true in my own life and experience. This type of behavior thrives on and almost requires isolation and secrecy.

When you get to a point and a place where you can be open and talk about it, being honest with God, yourself and a few trusted and safe friends it is amazing how quickly this sin loses its power. The irony is that when we are in the midst of it, we imagine we're the only one and that this is the one secret we never want to tell.

Healing comes through surrender and confession.

Will power will not work. There will come a time when your will will ebb and you will be weak and sin will overcome you and sift you like wheat.

The time to prepare for this is not when you are weak. It is in letting go fo the secret, telling God, (He knows already anyway) being honest with yourself and using the power of fellowship and accountibility with trustworthy Christian men.

I hope this helps.

Again this is a huge issue and you are not unique. These are the things that work in combatting this sin. The beauty is they are also hallmarks of a health Chrisitan life and when you begin to have victory in this area, you sow seeds of success in other areas as well.

There's hope. It can get better. You are not alone nor do you or anyone else have to go through this alone.

PM me if I can help further and you want to talk more openly.

Bart

Atticus Finch wrote:

FFC wrote:
Atticus, I hear ever word you are saying. It is just as hard for Christians if we don't lean fully on Christ for this sin. The flesh will always try to get it's way. I'm certainly no poster boy for victory in this area, but I do feel God at work in my struggles when I focus on Him and surrender to His awsome power.

The most terrible part of it is that it's almost an addiction for me at this point. I don't disrespect women, or falsely assume a perverted relationship with one is the normal route. I've had girlfriends and I never thought of the perverted things which I'd watch at home. This is the spiritual and loving aspect of being with someone. Once you feel romantic love for a person it's impossible to include perverted lust. For myself it is at least.

Has anyone seen the film Broken Flowers with Bill Murray? It's not very christian ( what is anymore?) but it was still a decent movie with a slightly interesting philosophical message. There's a scene no longer than a minute where a girl is fully nude. It is a total shock in its placing and has been called that year's most erotic moment in film or something similar to that. The image is locked in my mind. I don't want it to be there, I wish it would vanish and never return because it feels like a dark plague spreading throughout my mind.

I recently heard someone say that it's not an addiction that can be quit. It's not like a drug where one can distance himself from it. A perverted mind will pervert things very pure, therefore leaving nowhere absent of it.

Hi Atticus,
I'm right with you. I can see a woman on TV for two seconds and it seems like i was watching her for 10 minutes. It doesn't take long for a thought to plant itself which results in you eventually succumbing. The lust of the eyes are a kind of foreplay for men which eventually demands consumation.

Bart gave you a great post to read over filled with wonderful and truthful advice...but until you completely surrender you life to Christ and believe in him for eternal life you can only go so far. I tell you this not to cause you dispair but hope! Jesus came to not only make you right with the father and cleanse you of all your sins but to break the bondage of your sins once and for all. Without Christ living in you there is no access to you for victory.

I am amazed at how much you know about the things of Christ, but please understand, this knowlege can only take you as far as the gate. You need to enter the gate, and you can only do that by completely surrending yourself to Christ in faith and letting Him be your lord and Savior. Jesus said the healthy don't need a physician, the sick do. We are all terminally ill with sin until Christ heals us with his blood. If you believe in Him with all your heart He promises you the antidote.

Will you believe that He can save you, Atticus? Will you surrender your heart into his loving and saving hands? I know that you want to.

I'm praying that you do.
FFC

Turgonian wrote: I haven't heard any modern Christian defend that boys and girls aren't allowed to have premarital kisses. It's because kisses may be very special, but only sex is the mystical union of becoming 'one flesh'. (And I think it is mystical and forges a deep connection. That is why casual sex, the denial of this connection, is so destructive.)

OK but deosnt kissing promote lust? If it does then it is a sin and so logically it is a sin. Or i didnt mean kssng but also other types of sexial pleasure with your gf/bf out of marriage (NOT DIRECT SEX). IS it not sin?
BTW... do u need to stay "loyal" to your gf/bf if you have one; would cheating be a sin against 6th commandment or just against honesty, loyalty etc?

There's a pretty broad scope of kissing.

Are we talking about a gentle kiss hello or goodbye, or are we talking about bobbing for tonsils, or points in between.

Canuckster1127 wrote:There's a pretty broad scope of kissing.

Are we talking about a gentle kiss hello or goodbye, or are we talking about bobbing for tonsils, or points in between.

Wow good way of putting it!

bizzt wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:There's a pretty broad scope of kissing.

Are we talking about a gentle kiss hello or goodbye, or are we talking about bobbing for tonsils, or points in between.

Wow good way of putting it!

I studied for years to attain this mastery of language ......

Canuckster1127 wrote:

bizzt wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:There's a pretty broad scope of kissing.

Are we talking about a gentle kiss hello or goodbye, or are we talking about bobbing for tonsils, or points in between.

Wow good way of putting it!

I studied for years to attain this mastery of language ......

Wow I better get studying

madscientist wrote:OK but deosnt kissing promote lust? If it does then it is a sin and so logically it is a sin. Or i didnt mean kssng but also other types of sexial pleasure with your gf/bf out of marriage (NOT DIRECT SEX). IS it not sin?
BTW... do u need to stay "loyal" to your gf/bf if you have one; would cheating be a sin against 6th commandment or just against honesty, loyalty etc?

Kissing MAY promote lust. It can also be a very special way of showing affection. In my life, girls have given me cheek kisses on 6 occasions (I counted them! ), and they had nothing to do with lust. Not every sexual expression is lust.
Besides, kissing doesn't even need to be special. A friend of mine (16 years old) went as a leader / cook on a children's camp, and, like the other leaders, kissed all the small girls (aged 9/10) goodnight. Another friend commented, 'That could give a person wrong thoughts.' The kisser's verdict: 'If it does, you're sick.'
Lust is focusing on physical aspects; it is self-centred and impatient. Some are more prone to it than others. It's something you have to watch and to control. There is a host of options available if you want to show someone you like/love him/her, some going beyond words, but without lust.

And yes, Canuckster, nicely put.

Cheating is a sin, certainly. It is lying, which God forbids in the ninth commandment. It disregards another's feelings. However, breaking up with a girlfriend or boyfriend in all honesty is allowed. A warm and intimate premarital relationship is not sacred as marriage is, and may be ended.

Sexual pleasures with a girlfriend or boyfriend are allowed as long as they don't degenerate into lust. I wouldn't go pushing the borders -- make sure I remain on the safe side. That still leaves open the possibility of physical intimacy, which only becomes sinful when it is degraded.

Rather than putting down legalistic rules, I'd urge a person to consider I Corinthians 13:4-7:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I like how "The Message" puts Ephesians 5:3-5:

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

This kind of takes away all of our fun.

Canuckster1127 wrote:

Turgonian wrote:

FFC wrote:

Thanks for the replies everyone. I greatly appreciate the thoughts and advice.

I have an interesting story to share which will demonstrate the addiction (as I believe it to be) and how it can deter my mind from meaningful things.

I didn't attend the graduation ceremony at my high school. Instead I went on a road trip with a friend to a few different states. We camped there and were away from all society and women for a week or so. It was fantastic. There was no lust in my mind for a few reasons:

1) We were camping and survival does not entail thoughts about women.
2) I was outdoors. I felt a real purpose to life. I was reading the Bible.
3) There were no girls around, no computers, and no televisions.
4) My friend also suffers from a similar problem and we had agreed not to talk sexually about women but instead focus on almost anything else.

At one point we went hiking through a family-oriented trail in Delaware. We went the long route which was still only a few miles (a family place remember) and we saw waterfalls and all of that great stuff. This was the purpose I had felt, the complete meaning to a life which is not found within a society based around Walmart ( ) and the like. Anyway, throughout this hike there was a girl there who appeared a year younger than myself (I am eighteen). Since she was the first attractive girl I had seen in a few days my mind suddenly dropped all elements of beauty, purpose, and life and quickly focused onto sex. I had to actually explain to my friend that we needed to either leave or run ahead so I could forget about her.

I explained to him as I have done here that it feels like a dark plague reaching throughout my mind and destroying all good thoughts and replacing them with sexual ones. That night as I slept in our tent I could still hardly keep my mind from her, this even as a bear walked around our camp site...

I know that this is very candid and I'm sorry if it has offended anyone, I just feel that complete honesty is the only way in which I can defeat this problem.

Lots of people (namely atheists and those of a religion but weak therein) will say that thoughts do not matter. They will say that pornography, while of course being insulting to the participants in it, is of no harm or danger to the individual. I can recognize the error of this from what I've learnt of Christ's teachings and those elsewhere in the Bible. Thoughts do matter and they do corrupt the mind. They are as dangerous as actions and they most certainly lead towards actions rather than remains as thoughts.