Homosexuality, politcs, and Christians-Oh my!

[Turgonian]

OK, thanks for clarifying.

You know, I recently read Calvin, who said that faith is assurance of God's grace and 'propitiousness' toward us. And in the Gentiles thread, I argued that non-evangelized people might come to faith in the character of Christ. Don't the Judaists believe in God's grace and propitiousness, too?

[puritan lad]

We're getting way off of the subject here, but...

Judaism is a religion that rejects Christ, thus a proponent of Judaism knows nothing of God's grace.

"Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:22-23)

Also see Jesus' words in John 8:39-44. I'll deal more with this in my post on Antichrist.

[Mr. Hyde]

Rest in peace, thread.

[Turgonian]

If you want to get back on topic, no one's stopping you...

[N4SC]

There's simply no way to get into politically without getting into the Bible. Without defending our faith as a whole, we really don't have a leg to stand on. People will always find new ways to pervert their lives, inventing new "lifestyles" that are and always have been wrong and debunking it as "different". We'd have to prove the existence of the God of the Bible, otherwise they'll keep preaching their little "keep church and state separate" like Christianity is just a suggestion on how to live.

[Alan McDougall]

I put the question right out in the light, will practising homosexual people end up in hell if they die in that state of sin?

Alan

[ageofknowledge]

Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9b-10; see also 1:1).

It's best to repent of these activities as soon as possible.

That said, I was once a Christian who got drunk and looked at porno. I was stressed out beyond belief at the time and used these sinful activities to self-medicate the stress and dull the bitterness, self-pity, and failure I felt so deeply and painfully in my life. They turned into addictions I couldn't stop by myself.

God didn't leave me there but convicted me and I began a search to find victory over them. I took several years of searching and seeking to find victory from them. I was so ignorant and naive about the area of recovery. Eventually I found Celebrate Recovery and over the course of two years had a full recovery and left those sinful activities in the dust. But I didn't conquer the last one until God entered my heart in a new way with fresh love.

Anyways, if I had died at that point being a drunkard would I have gone to hell? No I don't believe so. The position that a born again Christian caught in a sin they are desperately working toward getting free from goes to hell conflicts with scripture.

But I think scriptures like the one above clearly reveal that the unsaved, fake Christian hypocrites, etc... that practices these deeds are not going to heaven. This would include the person who claims to be a Christian but practices them and won't stop no matter how God convicts them, what people say to them to try to get them to stop, and is not in a state of repentance from them.

The so called Christians that go to homosexual churches and twist scripture to accomodate their homosexuality and won't repent are not going to heaven in that state.

[Jac3510]

I put the question right out in the light, will practising homosexual people end up in hell if they die in that state of sin?

Alan

I'll answer the question right out in the light:

If a practicing homosexual has not trusted Jesus Christ, the Son of God, for his or her eternal salvation, then yes, he or she will die and go to Hell. If a practicing homosexual has trusted Jesus Christ, the Son of God, for his or her eternal salvation, then no, he or she will not die and go to Hell.

Actions have nothing to do with where we spend our eternity. What we do with Jesus does.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." ~ John 3:16-18, NIV

[ageofknowledge]

I disagree with Jac's position that a person can believe Christ is the only way to salvation and then turn from that into a human monster leaving any semblence of Christianity far behind them and hop right into heaven to receive their reward upon their death.

Matthew 24:13,24,25 ; Luke 8:5-8,11-15 ; 12:45,46 ; 14:34,35 ; 15:13,21,24 ; 22:31,32 ; and
John 15:1,2,6.

Romans 11:17-22 ; 1 Corinthians 3:16,17 ; 9:27 ; 10:1-12 ; 11:31,32 ; 15:1,2 ; Galatians 5:4,7 Philippians 2:12,13 ; Colossians 1:22,23 ; 1 Thessalonians 3:5,8 ; and 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

1 Timothy 1:5-7 ; 3:6,7 ; 4:1 ; 5:12,15 ; 6:10,20,21 2 Timothy 2:15,17,18 ; 3:14,15 ; 4:3,4 Hebrews 2:1-3 ; 3:12-14,18 ; 4:1,11-13 ; 6:4-6 ; 10:26,29,38 ; 12:15-17 ; and James 1:14,15 ; 5:19,20

1 Peter 1:9 ; 2 Peter 1:10 ; 2:15,16,20,21 ; 3:17,18 1 John 2:24,25,28 ; Revelation 2:5,10,11 ; 3:1-5,16 ; and 22:19

[Jac3510]

I disagree with Age's position that our behavior has anything to do with our salvation whatsoever and with his implicit idea that Scripture can contradict itself. If John 3:16 says that EVERYONE who believes has everlasting life, and he has Scripture that he interprets to mean that NOT EVERYONE who believes has everlasting life, then he has found a contradiction in the Bible.

Against this:

• Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.. ~ 2 Tim 2:11-13.

Note that if we ENDURE (that is, live the life that we are called to live), then we will REIGN (that is a reward). If we disown Him by not enduring, then we will be disowned--in context, we will NOT reign (loss of rewards). But WHATEVER we do or don't do, if we are faithless, He will still be faithful to His promise to save us.

Now, you (and anybody else) can take these two positions for what they are worth. I have offered a very straightforward answer. If a sinner puts their faith in Christ, they are SAVED, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. NOTHING can separate them from the love of God. They have ETERNAL LIFE. If you don't agree with that view and want to buy into Age's, then fine, you work out the other problems implicit with how homosexuals can be saved.

[ageofknowledge]

Obviously the reason why we look at more than one scripture is to determine what scripture actually says in context with itself; a process we call hermeneutics that is formalized as systematic theology. Jac opens with nothing but a strawman constructed by none other than Jac which falsely correlates that a hermeneutical systematic approach to scripture must be an implicit assertion that scripture can contradict itself (if it disagrees with his own interpretation that is). It would be better to forgo setting up such a strawman and simply make your presentation.

Unfortunately the teaching of eternal security is sometimes the source of problems within Christian circles. Both sides often misrepresent the other and instead of being gracious on this debatable issue (as we are commanded to be in Romans 14:1-12) people accuse each other of being unbiblical. I will try to be Biblical despite Jac's poor beginning here.

Now it is true that faith in Christ is the way to eternal salvation and the true believer follows Jesus and has eternal security even when they backslide and even when they become deceived and later return to a knowledge of the truth (even if they think they can't because the devil has deceived them into believing a lie); however, I also believe in free will damnation which holds that it is possible to simply walk away and turn your back on God and die in that condition and wake up in hell. John 10:27-29 & Romans 8:38-39 is used by the once saved always saved no matter what you choose to do afterwards camp but they are misrepresenting scripture in my view. For example John 10:27-29 simply says that no one has the power to come and snatch away a true believer following Christ. But this is not saying a person cannot decide to, of their own free will, walk out of His hand and never return. They are applying something to the verse it doesn't actually say. Same thing with Romans 8:38-39. Nothing has the power to separate God's love from a true believer. But again, the true believer can walk away and never return as in the parable of the sower Jesus shares in Matthew reveals.

Ezekiel 18:24 asks "24. But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live?".

Ezekiel 18:24-26 answers "All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: (or remembered) in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26. When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die."

This is not just Old Testament teaching. These are the very same principles taught by Apostle Paul in Hebrews. These verses are in the context of a person who has found and received salvation. Hebrews 10:26-31: "26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29. Of how much sorer punishment (worse punishment), suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30. For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." KJV

In Revelation 3:5 Jesus speaks of some people getting their names blotted out of the book of life. He says those that overcome will not be blotted out. This was written to church people who believed on Jesus.

the Bible says in James 2:14-25 (NIV):

"1What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

Do I believe in eternal security? YES I DO. Nobody or spiritual creature or power can take it FROM you. It's 100% preventable. But in scriptural context we see a scriptural revelation that someone who willfully turns from the truth and rejects their faith never repenting but dying in rebellion and unrepentance isn't going to heaven; in my opinion. Nobody had the power to take it from them. It was a willful choice they made to reject so great a salvation and never came back. Feel free to disagree with this position but have an argument other than setting up and knocking down a strawman. In fact, prove me wrong. I hope you can. For if you're right and I'm wrong then it means some of those people that abandoned our faith and died in that condition are in heaven. I just don't think I'm wrong on this point.

Now give me a hug Jac

[Jac3510]

1. Heb 10:26ff doesn't say the punishment is hell. In fact, it is not. It is simply both harsh discipline in this life and loss of rewards in the next.

2. James 2:14ff doesn't say that people go to hell. The word "save" doesn't mean "go to heaven." When James uses the word "righteous" or "justify" (same word in Greek) in that context, like every other instance in his book (and like every instance in Proverbs), he is referring to moral righteousness/blamelessness. The point of the passage, in context, is that our religion won't protect us either from physical danger or from God's wrath against sin.

3. The passages in Ezekiel don't mention hell. It mentions death.

4. Rev 3:5 can be taken in no less than three other ways, including the idea that the book of life contains all those living (not those written in the moment they are saved). To be blotted out would be to be destroyed, which is consistent with OT usage of the phrase.

In all of the above cases, AoK confuses physical death/punishment with Hell when NONE of the passages mention it. That is just reading into the text.

Against this:

5. John 3:16 does not say that whoever believes until the end of his life will be saved. It says the person who believes HAS (present tense) everlasting life. John 5:24 says the believer has passed (completed action) out of death and into life and shall never die again. These verses say that the believer has EVERLASTING life. If we lose everlasting life, we would die again, which violates those passages. Further, we have the already referenced passage in Tim that makes the same point.

The Bible teaches eternal security. Christ will lose NONE of those given to Him (John 6:39). That means I can't remove myself from His hand. They are given to Him by the Father, not by themselves. I can no more remove myself from Jesus' salvation than Satan can.

With that said, I don't hold any animosity towards you, Age. I hope you come to see the absolute, fantastic, good news that comes with the Gospel. But that is between you and God. So long as you are trusting Jesus alone and NOTHING ELSE, including your ability to maintain your faith in Jesus, to save you, then you believe the Gospel as much as any person ever has and we'll be partying together for all of eternity.

God bless

[ageofknowledge]

Thanks Jac. I'll leave our sidebar discussion here as it actually deserves it's own thread and consider your rebuttal. Peace to you friend.