Evidence for God from Science

Packrat wrote:So no one knows the answer to my question? If you blaspheme God (in general), then who or what part of God are you blaspheming

Packrat, I think you are nitpicking here. You have been given some very good responses and the most commonly accepted answer to your question is in line with the idea of refusing the gift of salvation right to the end. By constantly and deliberately (right until your death when there is no further chance to reconcile with God) denying and retreating from the work of the Holy Spirit in you - to convict you of guilt and bring you to an acceptance of saving grace - you will have blasphemed against Him. Yes, that is blaspheming against God as the Spirit is part of the Godhead. There is no necessity to dissect this subject any further. What purpose do you achieve? These are perfectly good answers you have been given and while you may avoid being clear about it, others are indeed clear, do know the answer, and don't have an issue with it. Keep yourself right with God through confession and forgiveness of sins and it need be of no concern to you either.

FFC wrote:

Packrat wrote:So no one knows the answer to my question? If you blaspheme God (in general), then who or what part of God are you blaspheming

I would venture to say that if you were blaspheming God (in general) then you are blaspheming The Father. "God" was not only who The Father was but many times also used as His title.

Good post, FFC. It would make sense since Christ was making a distinction among the members of the Trinity. So blaspheming 'God' would be blaspheming the Father as I think blasphemy is broken down and relegated to the different parts of the Trinity.

Judah wrote:

Packrat wrote:So no one knows the answer to my question? If you blaspheme God (in general), then who or what part of God are you blaspheming

Packrat, I think you are nitpicking here. You have been given some very good responses and the most commonly accepted answer to your question is in line with the idea of refusing the gift of salvation right to the end. By constantly and deliberately (right until your death when there is no further chance to reconcile with God) denying and retreating from the work of the Holy Spirit in you - to convict you of guilt and bring you to an acceptance of saving grace - you will have blasphemed against Him. Yes, that is blaspheming against God as the Spirit is part of the Godhead. There is no necessity to dissect this subject any further. What purpose do you achieve? These are perfectly good answers you have been given and while you may avoid being clear about it, others are indeed clear, do know the answer, and don't have an issue with it. Keep yourself right with God through confession and forgiveness of sins and it need be of no concern to you either.

When one's own salvation is involved, I think we have to be pretty dang careful to sort out the truth. We can't just say, "That's a good enough answer! It seems logical," especially when the answer is not logical. Christ says that speaking evil to the Holy Spirit is unforgivable; not thinking evil, not poking fun at it, not rejecting it - speaking evil to it.

Now I realize that one's words come from the heart and that Christ after he said this went on to give an illustration of good trees bearing good fruit and bad trees bearing bad fruit - just as good words come from a good heart and evil words come from an evil heart. And if you can show me how rejecting the Holy Spirit is the same as speaking evil to the Holy Spirit, then I would probably be glad to agree with your reasoning here. If someone already has, then please point me to it if I have overlooked what they said. Infact I would be very glad to accept this position, and that is probably the only bit of reasoning that is left that I need. Point me from A to B - from speaking evil to rejecting - and I'd be very grateful to you.

Was the culture back then that used the word 'speaking' also able to use it to apply to things other than verbally and audibly forming words with one's tongue and breath and vocal cords? I just want to get down to the bottom of this so that I can explain this to others who are as nitpicky as me when I actually run into such people.

packrat wrote:Was the culture back then that used the word 'speaking' also able to use it to apply to things other than verbally and audibly forming words with one's tongue and breath and vocal cords? I just want to get down to the bottom of this so that I can explain this to others who are as nitpicky as me when I actually run into such people.

I was going to suggest the same thing, Packrat. I don't have any evidence to back up my thoughts, but I always thought that speaking evil or blaspheming the Holy Spirit was more of a heart issue that although typically, did not always manifested itself verbally, otherwise all mute people would be exempt from it. That doesn't ring true to me. It's the same idea with the Romans 10 verse regarding "confessing with your mouth the Lord Jesus" to be saved. Surely God wouldn't exclude someone who couldn't talk from being saved.

packrat wrote:When one's own salvation is involved, I think we have to be pretty dang careful to sort out the truth. We can't just say, "That's a good enough answer! It seems logical," especially when the answer is not logical. Christ says that speaking evil to the Holy Spirit is unforgivable; not thinking evil, not poking fun at it, not rejecting it - speaking evil to it.

Now I realize that one's words come from the heart and that Christ after he said this went on to give an illustration of good trees bearing good fruit and bad trees bearing bad fruit - just as good words come from a good heart and evil words come from an evil heart. And if you can show me how rejecting the Holy Spirit is the same as speaking evil to the Holy Spirit, then I would probably be glad to agree with your reasoning here. If someone already has, then please point me to it if I have overlooked what they said. Infact I would be very glad to accept this position, and that is probably the only bit of reasoning that is left that I need. Point me from A to B - from speaking evil to rejecting - and I'd be very grateful to you.

Yes, your speech and thoughts are the product of your attitudes and viewpoints, the position you take about something. If you ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit, you are effectively saying that they are not worth listening to, that they are not important, that they are false, not of God, and so on. So by your actions you are telling the Holy Spirit that He is not worthy of your attentions, that He is not God and His works are not of God. Given that the Holy Spirit is indeed God as part of the Godhead whose role is to convict us of sin, lead us to salvation, comfort and strengthen us, that is a pretty daring and outrageous thing to be doing. Your thoughts and speech are just the evidence of what is in your heart, and conversely it is what is in your heart that produces them. Jesus pointed out that connection, and you refer to that illustration yourself of the trees and the fruit which come in the following verses. So... put the words to your actions, for your actions are speaking what is in your heart.

Where this has been previously mentioned:

FFC wrote:My thoughts on this are that while Jesus walked this earth one of his main things was to reveal the Father through his words and miracles in order to reach those who would believe. The Holy Spirit was the vehicle in which this was accomplished. To attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to the works of the devil is only unforgivable in that it rejects the free gift of salvation. It only makes sense that it can't be forgiven. It's like refusing to grab the lifeline when you are drowning in the ocean...

Belief=salvation
non belief=unforgiveness

Vassal wrote:Basically, what it comes down to is knowing God but then purposely defying him. So if you're worried about having blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, then you haven't. You may have said some bad things about the concept of god, or even God himself, but by admitting you were wrong and claiming that you were blind you can be forgiven. If you had blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, then, like the demons, you would have done so on purpose and you wouldn't care at all about forgiveness.

Byblos wrote:You nailed it FFC. That's how I've always seen it. All who die in unbelief have effectively denied the Holy Spirit

FFC wrote:Rejecting God's provision of salvation is the only thing that can never be forgiven, but that's not to say if and when that person does believe God won't forgive him or her. My thoughts are that it is the idea of actively rejecting the works of the Spirit...not doing it once and never getting another chance.

FFC wrote:Speaking against the Son can be forgiven but speaking against the Holy Spirit cannot...simply because it is through the Spirit that forgiveness comes. You can't have light if you cut the electrical lines.

Someone who goes around verbally cussing God (the three-in-one God, thus including the Holy Spirit) or attributing His works to other than God does not have God in his heart and keeps himself away from God, refusing to allow Him to enter. Likewise, someone who keeps on ignoring his need for God in his life and Christ's salvation. The more someone does either of these, the more hardened he becomes towards God, and the less and less he will listen to any promptings of the Holy Spirit. Eventually, if something quite amazing doesn't happen to turn him around, he will die in this unregenerate and unsaved state and that is the last of his chances to reconcile with God. Of course he may repent in his last few minutes and ask forgiveness, and if he is truly sincere in that then God is merciful and forgiving. But if the Spirit's promptings are still ignored, maybe not even heard anymore, then it is too late.

Packrat wrote:Was the culture back then that used the word 'speaking' also able to use it to apply to things other than verbally and audibly forming words with one's tongue and breath and vocal cords? I just want to get down to the bottom of this so that I can explain this to others who are as nitpicky as me when I actually run into such people.

I think this idea gets you much closer to understanding the answer to your question. The heart "speaks" by the actions you carry out, doesn't it?

From the Bible Commentary of Matthew Henry:

Here is a gracious assurance of the pardon of all sin upon gospel terms. Christ herein has set an example to the sons of men, to be ready to forgive words spoken against them. But humble and conscientious believers, at times are tempted to think they have committed the unpardonable sin, while those who have come the nearest to it, seldom have any fear about it. We may be sure that those who indeed repent and believe the gospel, have not committed this sin, or any other of the same kind; for repentance and faith are the special gifts of God, which he would not bestow on any man, if he were determined never to pardon him; and those who fear they have committed this sin, give a good sign that they have not. The trembling, contrite sinner, has the witness in himself that this is not his case.

Matthew Henry's Concise Edition

I thank you for all of your replies. I should clarify something though. I'd been looking at Young's Literal, and I could have sworn that it said 'speaking evil TO' the Holy Spirit. However, it says 'speaking evil OF' the Holy Spirit. I swear that someone's got to be messing with the translation... But then again I know I could very well have overlooked it - somehow - as many times as I did.

So speaking evil OF the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. And one's words come from one's heart as Christ goes on to illustrate and clarify. So it is a matter of action but ultimately a matter of heart. I'm still a bit fuzzy on this though. If a person has an evil heart and speaks evil of the Holy Spirit, but - as all things are possible with God - he changes that person's heart into a good heart, would they be forgiven of speaking evil of the Holy Spirit? Or would they be condemned forever for that one time in their life when their heart was evil and they acted from it?

By the way, there's something wrong with the Discussion link on the bottom of the Godandscience.org website. I click it as much as I want, but it only refreshes that page. I have to right click on the link and look at its target. Even when I paste the target link into the URL, it still only takes me back to that page I think. I have to alter the URL of the link to be http://Godandscience.org/discussions instead of http://discussions.Godandscience.org or whatever it is right now.

packrat wrote:

Byblos wrote:

FFC wrote:Luke 12:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
and every one whoever shall say a word to the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven to him, but to him who to the Holy Spirit did speak evil, it shall not be forgiven.

My thoughts on this are that while Jesus walked this earth one of his main things was to reveal the Father through his words and miracles in order to reach those who would believe. The Holy Spirit was the vehicle in which this was accomplished. To attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to the works of the devil is only unforgivable in that it rejects the free gift of salvation. It only makes sense that it can't be forgiven. It's like refusing to grab the lifeline when you are drowning in the ocean...

Belief=salvation
non belief=unforgiveness

You nailed it FFC. That's how I've always seen it. All who die in unbelief have effectively denied the Holy Spirit.

I reject that interpretation of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (at the moment anyway). Is rejecting God's gift of salvation for you a sin? If God is willing that none should perish, then is it going against his will? Anything that goes against his will is a sin, right? Or am I wrong? Ok, I think I just contradicted myself, and I'm starting to see how it can be a sin.

At any rate, if it were not a sin but simply a rejection of God's salvation from your sin, then that would mean that there is still an unforgivable sin and that the unforgivable sin must be something different than rejecting God's gift of salvation.

If rejecting God's gift of salvation is a sin and the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, then these two must be one and the same. BUT Scripture does not state that there is only ONE unforgivable sin. Or does it?

I would like to add to this a few things but they'll be in a hurry. Bible says, “out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” Matthew 12:34 and also note Proverbs 23:7.

Look at the context of Matthew 12:30-37. What is it telling you? What we speak reflects how we live and think. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the total rejection of the Holy Spirit's work. This occurs on Judgment day as only on that day will this be known. Note context: Matthew12:36, “But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.” KJV

Proverbs 23:7, “For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he. —KJV- “The Hebrew word translated thinketh means to reason out analyze, calculate, determine, deem, reckon, estimate.” Now in Mathew 12:34 it states out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

From this you can see that what a person is on the inside comes out in all manner of action, thought, and then speech. The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the total rejection of the Holy Spirit's work. Now what is the Holy Spirit's work?

John 16:7-13 cues you in. Note verse 10 — “And having come, that One will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment…ALT" - and leads people to the truth which in John 3:18-21 is sumed up:

“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” KJV

Romans 2:3-8 "And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,…” KJV

Therefore, the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the total rejection of the Holy Spirit's work. This is judged on judgment day. The Goodness of God's Spirit leads to repentance and if that work of the Spirit is rejected as proved by all manner of a person's actions, deed, words, thoughts that will not be forgiven as they rejected God himself and his very own goodness and salvation offered.

Since the work of the Holy Spirit is to “And having come, that One will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment,” [John 16:10 ALT] then if a person is feeling like that have blasphemed the Holy Spirit by usage of words and are concerned about this proves they have not. Why — How? Conviction — one feels conviction or guilt at doing so proves they have not. God's Spirit is at work in them instead to bring them to a state of repentance from such nonsensical thinking.

It is at the point of passing away and entering eternity is when it is determined if one has really Blasphemed the Holy Spirit as proven by thoughts, deeds, actions, and words. In other words — conduct proves one rejected God.

As long as you are alive and feel guilt over doing this — then you have not and have time to turn away from the sin of rejecting God — you have the rest of this earth bound life — however long or short to do so. Turn away from ones hate and anger at God, ones rejection of God's goodness, and receive the Holy Spirit who enables you to live a new life producing good fruit.

Galatians 5:22-25, “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit..” KJV
-
-
-

Ok. I know now that Christ probably meant more than just an act of tongue, vocal cords, and breath. I obviously has something to do with your heart. So my last question still remains:

packrat wrote:If a person has an evil heart and speaks evil of the Holy Spirit, but - as all things are possible with God - he changes that person's heart into a good heart, would they be forgiven of speaking evil of the Holy Spirit? Or would they be condemned forever for that one time in their life when their heart was evil and they acted from it?

packrat wrote:Ok. I know now that Christ probably meant more than just an act of tongue, vocal cords, and breath. I obviously has something to do with your heart. So my last question still remains:

“If a person has an evil heart and speaks evil of the Holy Spirit, but - as all things are possible with God - he changes that person's heart into a good heart, would they be forgiven of speaking evil of the Holy Spirit? Or would they be condemned forever for that one time in their life when their heart was evil and they acted from it?”

Since God changed the heart — then the person is forgiven. It is not a question of what one says. It is the state of the person after they have died when final judgment comes. If a person truly rejects the work of the Holy Spirit — their heart would be hard and not changed no matter what. Their entire life would demonstrate this on the Day of Judgment.

If a person truly accepts the work of the Holy Spirit — their heart would be changed no matter what. Their life after conversation would demonstrate this change no matter how slow or fast after the change first happen.

You must realize Jesus in the oft quoted passage regarding Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is for the reader to keep reading the context that ends with Jesus himself stating that everyone will give an account on the Day of Judgment - see Matthew12:36.

Now note Hebrews 9:27-28:

Hebrews 9:27-28, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” KJV

The 'unsaved' as they are termed - Blaspheme the Holy Spirit — those termed 'saved' cannot do this. As stated by Jesus:

John 10:25, “Jesus answered: I have told you, and you refused to believe me. The things I do by my Father's authority show who I am.26 But since you are not my sheep, you don't believe me.27 My sheep know my voice, and I know them. They follow me, 28 and I give them eternal life, so that they will never be lost. No one can snatch them out of my hand.29 My Father gave them to me, and he is greater than all others. No one can snatch them from his hands…” CEV

Thus if one's heart is changed by God — everything is forgiven and no one can snatch you from God's hands.

There is a web site where an bunch of people post video — audio clips stating that they choose to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit and mock and carry on. Sorry, that is not Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit or what it really is and involves. It comes on the Day of Judgment and until that time one can repent from such foolishness and be forgiven as they have not actually blasphemed yet. It is revealed to the person when on the day of their final Judgment.

A person feeling anguish, remorse, and confusion about Blaspheming the Holy Spirit over what they thought they said and done has not. They are feeling the conviction of the Holy Spirit to turn away from such nonsense, therefore turn. Read and re-read John 10:27-29. The conviction demonstrated by feelings of anguish, remorse, and confusion is you hearing Jesus calling you to return and follow him.
-
-
-

B. W. wrote:

packrat wrote:Ok. I know now that Christ probably meant more than just an act of tongue, vocal cords, and breath. I obviously has something to do with your heart. So my last question still remains:

“If a person has an evil heart and speaks evil of the Holy Spirit, but - as all things are possible with God - he changes that person's heart into a good heart, would they be forgiven of speaking evil of the Holy Spirit? Or would they be condemned forever for that one time in their life when their heart was evil and they acted from it?”

Since God changed the heart — then the person is forgiven. It is not a question of what one says. It is the state of the person after they have died when final judgment comes. If a person truly rejects the work of the Holy Spirit — their heart would be hard and not changed no matter what. Their entire life would demonstrate this on the Day of Judgment.

If a person truly accepts the work of the Holy Spirit — their heart would be changed no matter what. Their life after conversation would demonstrate this change no matter how slow or fast after the change first happen.

You must realize Jesus in the oft quoted passage regarding Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is for the reader to keep reading the context that ends with Jesus himself stating that everyone will give an account on the Day of Judgment - see Matthew12:36.

Now note Hebrews 9:27-28:

Hebrews 9:27-28, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” KJV

The 'unsaved' as they are termed - Blaspheme the Holy Spirit — those termed 'saved' cannot do this. As stated by Jesus:

John 10:25, “Jesus answered: I have told you, and you refused to believe me. The things I do by my Father's authority show who I am.26 But since you are not my sheep, you don't believe me.27 My sheep know my voice, and I know them. They follow me, 28 and I give them eternal life, so that they will never be lost. No one can snatch them out of my hand.29 My Father gave them to me, and he is greater than all others. No one can snatch them from his hands…” CEV

Thus if one's heart is changed by God — everything is forgiven and no one can snatch you from God's hands.

There is a web site where an bunch of people post video — audio clips stating that they choose to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit and mock and carry on. Sorry, that is not Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit or what it really is and involves. It comes on the Day of Judgment and until that time one can repent from such foolishness and be forgiven as they have not actually blasphemed yet. It is revealed to the person when on the day of their final Judgment.

A person feeling anguish, remorse, and confusion about Blaspheming the Holy Spirit over what they thought they said and done has not. They are feeling the conviction of the Holy Spirit to turn away from such nonsense, therefore turn. Read and re-read John 10:27-29. The conviction demonstrated by feelings of anguish, remorse, and confusion is you hearing Jesus calling you to return and follow him.
-
-
-

Thanks for your post, BW. Is one's heart changed when they are a believer though? If someone believes in God's message of salvation, then is their heart changed? It would seem so... Is there Scripture to support this? I know that the fruit of the Holy Spirit may be evidence that one is saved as the fruit comes from the tree as one's deeds come from their heart. So, yes, it would seem that one's heart is changed after they become a believer. However, I tend to think that even the fruit of the Holy Spirit takes time to ripen. In closing, yes, it appears to be a matter of the heart. I still don't see how having an evil heart is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But then again I barely saw from John 16:9 how unbelief in Christ and God can be a sin. So if one commits a blasphemy from an evil heart, this passage seems to tell me that they will never be forgiven even if their heart is later changed. I suppose I just need to understand that portion of the text now. You addressed this, BW, but I still don't see how one could be forgiven if their heart is changed after they commit this sin if the text plainly seems to say that one cannot be forgiven of that sin.

Are you saying that some people are born with evil hearts and others with half-way evil hearts and that some are condemned by their hearts because they will never change in their life and that others, who have half-way evil hearts, may still be able to change and thus wouldn't speak evil of the Holy Spirit to begin with?

Also of interest not necessarily here but in relation to how one was saved before the Messiah came is John 5:24. It appears that trust in God is what saves.

packrat wrote: Thanks for your post, BW. Is one's heart changed when they are a believer though? If someone believes in God's message of salvation, then is their heart changed? It would seem so... Is there Scripture to support this?

Yes — just about all of the New Testament to name just a few see - John3:16, Johm3:18, John3:36, John6:40, John6:47, John8:51, John11:26, John12:44, John20:31; Mark16:16; Rom10:11-13; 1Pe 1:21; 1 John 5:1, 1 John 5:11-13, John10:27-30; Rom 8:1, Rom 8:16-17, Rom 8:35-39; 1Th 5:9; 2Th 2:13-14; 1Pe 1:5 1 John3:14

packrat wrote: I know that the fruit of the Holy Spirit may be evidence that one is saved as the fruit comes from the tree as one's deeds come from their heart. So, yes, it would seem that one's heart is changed after they become a believer. However, I tend to think that even the fruit of the Holy Spirit takes time to ripen.

Galatians 4:19, “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you…”(KJVA)

Also note: Rom 8:9; 2 Co 3:18; Gal 2:20; Eph 3:17; Col 1:27

It takes time to grow…

Philippians 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: and he who began a good work will complete it.” KJV

packrat wrote: In closing, yes, it appears to be a matter of the heart. I still don't see how having an evil heart is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But then again I barely saw from John 16:9 how unbelief in Christ and God can be a sin. So if one commits a blasphemy from an evil heart, this passage seems to tell me that they will never be forgiven even if their heart is later changed. I suppose I just need to understand that portion of the text now. You addressed this, BW, but I still don't see how one could be forgiven if their heart is changed after they commit this sin if the text plainly seems to say that one cannot be forgiven of that sin.

Question for you is this: is John 10:25-29 true or not?

Is Philippians 1:6 true or not? - “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: and he who began a good work will complete it.” KJV

How could one commit blasphemy from an evil heart that was changed by Christ since what God does remains forever and nothing can be added God's work or taken away from it? When one is born of God's Spirit — born again — The Lord begins a work that changes a person. It is the grace from God that changes and His grace will lead you, I, and all who believe, home.

What I am saying is that God's grace changes our evil hearts and shapes us into being a reflection of his Son, Jesus, on this earth. His Grace confronts our hearts and changes it — cleanse us up.

I have not met a little kid [2-5 years old] yet that enjoys a bath! They kick and scream and put up a fuss — NO Bath — I am fine! Then, with Grace we parents pick our dirty stinky little grublets and carry them to the tub and scrub. After awhile, they enjoy the bath and learn to enjoy the feeling of being clean so much that they stay up late - happily and noisily demonstrating how clean they feel!

Next day — dirt from the world encrust and then its time for another bath. God keeps washing us clean everyday. If Christ work on the cross cannot cleanse, then nothing can. Those washed by they blood, as we say in Christian-ease, will be forever saved. We may feel dirty and think we have done great blaspheming being God's little Children, but God is more than able to keep us clean.

packrat wrote: Are you saying that some people are born with evil hearts and others with half-way evil hearts and that some are condemned by their hearts because they will never change in their life and that others, who have half-way evil hearts, may still be able to change and thus wouldn't speak evil of the Holy Spirit to begin with?

I think you should go to the section: Questions for Christians and look up:

God's omniscience vs free-will and Puritan Lad's Response for more on this matter.

Also, Romans 3:23, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” KJV we all have an evil heart. It is the Lord that changes our evil hearts. It is His work — His Word is the catalyst for Election. It is not saying words that indicates blaspheme that cannot be forgiven — it is the final Judgment — the final outcome of ones life that proves if they really did blaspheme that cannot be forgiven.

packrat wrote: Also of interest not necessarily here but in relation to how one was saved before the Messiah came is John 5:24. It appears that trust in God is what saves.

John 5:24, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” KJV

Notice — Hearing the Messiah's Word — The word is the catalyst for Election. It produces a result. It has a purpose —

Hebrews 4:12-16,“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” KJV
-
-
-

Well, I think that I've recently come to a solid conclusion on the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Yes, that's right. Even one that suits my nitpicking attitude. I won't post it now because I don't have enough time, but I may get around to it later.

Mormon view of Blasphemy Against of the Holy Ghost:

To have undeniable witness of Christ and/or the Father through the Holy Spirit (like say, vissions of heaven if you were a prophet, miraculous deeds, etc.), then to turn away from God and deny him completely.

To look into the sun in its blinding glory, and say with meaning, "It is night out". Basically, to act against God with undeniable evidence of him right in your face, and no longer just faith.

The Pharises had an enormous amount of evidence that Jesus was the Son of God (miracles, miracles, miracles), and yet, they constantly embarassed themselves by trying to trick him with word, then even construed a wicked plot to have him killed, then they with the Roman Empire, killing off the Christians, even sending men in to infiltrate and bring destruction to the last of the apostles and the Christian church.