Evidence for God from Science

Byblos wrote:

jenwat3 wrote:The start of salvation begins with accepting Jesus, yes, but our actions also speak for themselves, and in the end, that is what we will be judged by. In Revelation 20:12-13 "And I saw the dead, small and great standing before God, and books were opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works." Accepting Jesus is only the first step. We cannot truly say we have been saved if we turn our backs on Christ and do not live the way we should. And no, I am not saying that works alone are enough for salvation. It's a two-step process.

In other words, God's grace is not sufficient to bring about salvation. It must be completed by 'our step' for it to be effective in the end. Is this about right?

My read on the scriptures is that apart from the complete cleansing and forgiveness of sins that comes through Christs shed blood on the cross...nothing else is able to save us or keep us saved. We are blessed when we obey God. God is pleased when we follow Him and walk in His ways, but as Byblos points out it is not a two step process...because our steps adds nothing at all.

I don't believe that God saves and sanctifies us halfway and then expects us to do the rest. He saves us completely and desires us to serve Him with a grateful heart not out of obligation! Will we as His children be disciplined when we disobey Him, yes, but never cast out.

God's grace is not sufficient IF we don't accept it AND do our part to keep it. All I'm trying to say is that we need to accept Jesus, yes. That's the most important. But we CANNOT live a life of sin afterward, because that would mean we never truly accepted God. This isn't to say we won't sin, of course, but when we do we must repent and ask forgiveness, knowing that with God's grace our sins are forgiven.

Jen wrote:But we CANNOT live a life of sin afterward, because that would mean we never truly accepted God.

Are you sure, Jen? Have you ever backslid from God for any length of time? True it may make others judge you unsaved, or even make you doubt your own salvation.

What about the prodigal son? Did he ever lose his place in the family? Judging by his fathers response to his return I would say no. His brother may have thought differently but his father didn't.

Good discussion, Jen! I appreciate your demeanor as we go back and forth.

FFC wrote:

Jen wrote:But we CANNOT live a life of sin afterward, because that would mean we never truly accepted God.

Are you sure, Jen? Have you ever backslid from God for any length of time? True it may make others judge you unsaved, or even make you doubt your own salvation.

What about the prodigal son? Did he ever lose his place in the family? Judging by his fathers response to his return I would say no. His brother may have thought differently but his father didn't.

Great example FFC, yes, that is a key point. One may look at themselves and not believe for a second that they were saved. Others may look at them and judge them as evil (and unsaved). All that matters not though; what matters is God's promise. Do you believe God's promise is trustworthy when He says believe and you shall have everlasting life?

Jen, I know where you're coming from, believe me (I'm Catholic, remember?). For the longest time I thought exactly the same way you do. How could we not have a say in our salvation? Wouldn't that negate our free will? What about final judgment? How can we be fairly judged and perhaps be condemned if we didn't have anything to do with our own salvation? and so on... Only recently I have come to accept all of this, that God's grace and only his Grace is more than enough to save me. Ironically, it allowed me to dig deeper into my own denomination's theology and discover evidence of that within it (although it could use some clearing up but that's for another discussion). What you do after you believe is quite important in terms of walking with God (fellowship), in terms of rewards (or lack of) in heaven, in terms of even chastisement on judgment day. But you can rest assured that your destination is secured when you believe. It is the only thing that makes sense and not make God a liar.

FFC wrote:Good discussion, Jen! I appreciate your demeanor as we go back and forth.

Totally.

Thank you FFC and Byblos for your responses. Answer coming up! (tonite). One thing to Byblos, Just out of curiousity, is there a difference in Catholic beliefs and Roman Catholic beliefs?

jenwat3 wrote:Thank you FFC and Byblos for your responses. Answer coming up! (tonite). One thing to Byblos, Just out of curiousity, is there a difference in Catholic beliefs and Roman Catholic beliefs?

No. Some local traditions but not with anything doctrinal.

Ok, no offense (I hope!) I have never studied either in detail, so I was just curious.

jenwat3 wrote:Ok, no offense (I hope!) I have never studied either in detail, so I was just curious.

None taken.

Ok, Here is my response, coming straight from the bible. 1John 1:6-10. "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another , and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us." (now ch. 2:1) " My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (these are salvation verses.) starting in chapter 2: 3-8 "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says "I know Him" and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." Verse 17: " And the world is passing away, and the lust of it, but he who does the will of God abides forever." Both verses here are talking about doing the will of God, or in other words, works. This is just a few reasons why I think BOTH are necessary.

FFC wrote:

jenwat3 wrote:Yes, enigma. You said it a little better than I did, but my thoughts exactly.

I see what you are saying, but I think the works we do after we believe and are saved are not to keep us saved, but to be obedient to God. If we don't obey God we will be disciplined, but not cast out...because if we say we can be cast out then where is the line?

But I guess we're kind of getting off topic aren't we?

Hey Jen, is the Restored Church of God an off shoot of Armstrongs "Worldwide Church of God?

We will not be cast out, but when we are before the Great White Thrown; on Judgment Day our list of items may be longer than we would like if we do not try to keep on a straight path.

Doing good works do not keep us saved, the Grace of God alone does that. We will still be judged good works or not.

Therefore doing good works are not a requirement to be saved, but it wont hurt one bit to do good works.

Peace

Jim

To FFC, yes Restored is an "off-shoot", if you want to call it that. Actually, after Armstrong died, there were many "off-shoots", or should I say "there came a falling away", form the Worldwide Church. The Restored Church Of God teaches EXACTLY as Mr. Armstrong did, but none of the others do.

jenwat3 wrote:To FFC, yes Restored is an "off-shoot", if you want to call it that. Actually, after Armstrong died, there were many "off-shoots", or should I say "there came a falling away", form the Worldwide Church. The Restored Church Of God teaches EXACTLY as Mr. Armstrong did, but none of the others do.

Thank you, Jen. I guess this is why we mistook you for a JW, as you do share many of the same secondary doctrines.

Jen, just out of curiosity, in your opinion what are some of the big differences or errors that you see the JWs having in comparison to The Restored Church of God?

Thank you
FFC

Can you give me some examples? I'd be able to better answer this question. One difference that I do know of, from what I understand, is that the JW don't believe that Jesus rose again, or was the Son of God, or something like that. The Restored Church does NOT teach this. Also, major differences from other churches are that Christmas, Easter, and other major holidays are not celebrated. Only Thanksgiving. We celebrate God's feasts in the bible (Passover, Day of Atonement, etc.) Obviously, from past posts, we keep Saturday as God's Sabbath, we also do not believe in the trinity, do not eat "unclean" foods, and one MAJOR difference is that we believe that Christ did not die on Friday, but rather Wednesday, and that He was not resurrected on Sunday, but Saturday. (Yes, there is scriptural proof). We also believe the 10 commandments are still in effect, and there is no permanent ever lasting hell for sinners. Many other differences, but can't list all of them right now.

jenwat3 wrote:Can you give me some examples? I'd be able to better answer this question. One difference that I do know of, from what I understand, is that the JW don't believe that Jesus rose again, or was the Son of God, or something like that. The Restored Church does NOT teach this. Also, major differences from other churches are that Christmas, Easter, and other major holidays are not celebrated. Only Thanksgiving. We celebrate God's feasts in the bible (Passover, Day of Atonement, etc.) Obviously, from past posts, we keep Saturday as God's Sabbath, we also do not believe in the trinity, do not eat "unclean" foods, and one MAJOR difference is that we believe that Christ did not die on Friday, but rather Wednesday, and that He was not resurrected on Sunday, but Saturday. (Yes, there is scriptural proof). We also believe the 10 commandments are still in effect, and there is no permanent ever lasting hell for sinners. Many other differences, but can't list all of them right now.

That's a good start. Thank you!

Do you believe that Jesus is eternal. Do you believe that Jesus rose physically from the grave? How did Jesus take away our sins on the cross? I know that the JWs have different ideas about these issues than more orthodox Christians like most of us here believe.

My answer to all questions about Jesus is a resounding, emphatic, very loud YES. If I thought anything different, then that would mean that I thought Jesus was a liar, and so since He lied, then He was not our Savior since He sinned by lying. Our savior did not sin. Heaven FORBID I should believe anything else!