Re: Truth vs. the lie
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:13 am
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My apologies if I offended you Jenway3, So I'll approach this another way...
It is predicable that many would attempt to make the message of an eternal hell more palatable to the human psyche. Soul sleep, limited punishment, or annihilation is seen as a healthy more humane treatment of the doctrine of hell. Thus many restructure biblical word meanings, misquote myriads of bible passages, in order to justify assuaging the human soul with non-threatening softness.
Those that attempt to re-translate and reshape the doctrine of hell to fit a more humane world view need to ask some serious question regarding their doctrine. For example regarding all the varied doctrines of soul sleep, these basically teach in varied forms that after a person dies they fade into some type of restful sleep like the slumber of the dead where the dead feel nothing, hear nothing, taste nothing, and see nothing. In other words, immediately after dying a person just sleeps in a state of dark nothingness.
According to this view, a person who dies does not instantly enter either heaven or hell or experience judgment of any kind and any scripture that speaks otherwise is simply explained and opined away in appeals to assuage human flesh. After this sleep state the dead are suddenly awakened in some distant future to be judged where some will enter heaven and others a lake of fire either consisting of temporary punishment, or annihilation into non-existence, or even eternal torment. This is proof text by misinterpretation of scripture such as Daniel 12.
The problem with such soul sleep doctrines is that these cannot be reconciled to the basic law of contradiction used to determine the true from the false. If something is true that means there is an opposite that is false. The bible clearly teaches that after ones dies then comes instant judgment by God which determines ones eternal destiny in either the bliss of heaven or the punishment of hell. In either of these states people are awake and conscious and are not asleep in the slumber of death.
Those that hold any of the varied views of soul sleep need to question their doctrine and stop attempting to bend God's Word to the will of man.
It is you who hold the doctrines of soul sleep that will have to explain away the meanings of these verses:
Revelations 20:12-13, “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.”
Now note that Death and Hades gave up their dead. Now who were those mentioned being in Hades? Isaiah 24:21-23 begins to reveal who: “On that day the LORD will punish the host of heaven, in heaven, and the kings of the earth, on the earth. 22 They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished. 23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the LORD of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and his glory will be before his elders.”
Note that God gathers those from the pit, who are shut up in a prison and who after many days spent where — in a prison — a pit — will receive their final sentence and punishment.
Now turn to Psalms 9: 17 as it too reveals who is in Hades: “The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.” It does not say Lake of fire but Sheol — the prison… the pit…Hades…hell. This is the prison that the dead are shut up in mentioned in Isaiah 24:23. [Note - the pit, Sheol, is also at times called the grave and even Hades in the LXX]
Isaiah 24:23 describes something in common that the Western Criminal Justice system can relate too. The bad guys are arrested and held in a place of collection and after a while they receive a hearing then a final sentence in the future where they serve the rest of their sentence somewhere else beside the holding facility. This is what Isaiah is revealing and this also line up with Revelations chapter 20's theme.
Don't believe me? Think that those mentioned in Hades are just sleeping unaware until the time of the white throne judgment then read:
Isaiah 38:17-18, “Behold, it was for my welfare that I had great bitterness; but in love you have delivered my life from the pit of destruction, for you have cast all my sins behind your back. 18 For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness.”
Those down in the pit 'do not hope' and to 'do not hope' describes a state of conscious being. A state of sleep of nothingness cannot define a state of being without hope. Being without hope is a living emotion. To have emotions means you are alive and conscious of the fact that those in Sheol have no hope for God's faithfulness as they missed God's salvation of casting away the sins of them that believe in him. Those that missed this, the wicked experience no more hope. This describes consciousness.
A person being awake and conscious in hell and the afterlife is furthered explained in Isaiah 57:20-21, “But the wicked are like the tossing sea; for it cannot be quiet, and its waters toss up mire and dirt. 21 There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
In slumber of soul sleep it is usually taught as consisting of peace, rest, non-knowing, and unconscious but the bible does not teach this; instead, “There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
Now before you holler and say this is not true and cannot possibly mean that immediately after death judgment and punishment in Sheol, hell, the pit comes. Hmmm read - Isaiah 55:11, “so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.”
Note Ecc 3:14 it states: “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.” And again in Ecc 3:17-19: “ I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts." None Righteous - no not one: remember who said that?
There is no rest for the wicked anywhere on earth or in hell — the prison — this pit will give up its dead for the final reckoning. In this pit, these will have NO REST. Just as Peter describes: 2 Peter 2:9, “…The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.”
Note what this verse says - The unrighteous will be kept under punishment, where they have no rest — no sleep! As it is written there is no rest for the wicked. You who disagree have a lot to explain away as it plainly states that the Lord knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment. Since the bible states clearly they'll be kept in punishment until the final day of judgment, such person's are conscious and awake experiencing this and not asleep. Just as Jesus stated 'Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched,' Mark 9:48.
You also have to explain away Ezekiel 32 because those there in the pit are described as awake, conscious, seeing and speaking. What I write lines up with Luke 16 parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Those of you that disagree, your doctrine-does not line up with what Jesus said as well as the Father. Instead your doctrine lines up with the way of the world.
Why would God say there is no rest for the wicked and that he knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment if he were to let the dead sleep peacefully unaware of anything, then wake them up to toss them into a lake of fire of annihilation to non-exist? Or toss them in to temporary punishment of some type or even wait to punish forever after giving them a little rest? There is no rest for the wicked says the Lord. Likewise there is no soul sleep in any form as it would make God violate his own word.
Next, you that disagree will have to answer to this:
Revelation 7:9, 13-14, “After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" 14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
Funny how that the judgments and resurrections mentioned in Revelation 20 had not happened at this point so who are these people? How could they be there in heaven since according to your doctrines of soul sleep these should all be asleep in the grave till the final trump sounds! However, they are in Heaven before it sounds! You who hold the doctrines of soul sleep do not have answers for these scriptures as these point to a time after death and these prove both the godly and ungodly dead are conscious, spiritually alive, awake and not sleeping the slumber of death before the final judgment.
What of Luke 16:22-24, “The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'”
The angels carried the poor man away when - At the end of time or instantly? Sounds like both were very much awake and eternally alive as God places eternity in the heart and what he does he does forever. The gifts are callings of God are irrevocable.
What about Psalms 49:7-15-20, “Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, 8 for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, 9 that he should live on forever and never see the pit. [Note: this should clue you in to whom Jesus is as only God can save — not man].
“10 For he sees that even the wise die; the fool and the stupid alike must perish and leave their wealth to others. 11 Their graves are their homes forever, their dwelling places to all generations, though they called lands by their own names.
“12 Man in his pomp will not remain; he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This is the path of those who have foolish confidence; yet after them people approve of their boasts. Selah
“14 Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed [this word means to wear out by toil] in Sheol, with no place to dwell.
“15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah
“16 Be not afraid when a man becomes rich, when the glory of his house increases. 17 For when he dies he will carry nothing away; his glory will not go down after him. 18 For though, while he lives, he counts himself blessed --and though you get praise when you do well for yourself-- 19 his soul will go to the generation of his fathers, who will never again see light. 20 Man in his pomp yet without understanding is like the beasts that perish.”
Ecc 3:21-22, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22, “So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?” [note-Jesus can]
Next how about these verses and what they reveal:
Matthew 12:43, "When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. “
Zechariah 9:11, “As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit.” [The pit is describe hot, dry, waterless, and also as place of flames in Luke 16 account]
Matthew 12:40, “For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
Ephesians 4:8-10, “Therefore it says, "When he [Jesus] ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." 9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)”
Act 2:25-28, 31, “For David says concerning him, "'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken; 26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope. 27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence…' Act 2:31, “he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.”
1 Peter 3:18-19, “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison.”
It does not sound like those to whom Jesus preached to were asleep! Also how could Jesus speak if he was in the dust sleeping himself? The doctrine of soul sleep is false.
You see, the bible does not support such false doctrines that support soul sleep in any form or style no matter how many scriptures are twisted to support the ways of the world on this matter. The bible declares something else other than soul sleep.
Now, I will close with Ecclesiastes 9:3-6:
Ecclesiastes 9:3, “This is an evil in all that is done under the sun that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.”
Ecclesiastes 9:4-5, “But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.”
He who is joined to the living Lord has hope. Though we are dogs God transforms those that have joined themselves to the Lord into kings and priest and we are remembered in the book of life where our names are inscribed. Those that join death's lion and share its pride have no hope. Satan roars like a lion seeking whom to devour. Principle: join your self to the living Lord and forsake the pride of the dead lion.
Why — because: Ecclesiastes 9:6, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.”
They have no more share in the land of mortals and this means they have been cut of from mortal life, separated from it, and no more share in it. Instead they found a place where the wicked have no rest, a place where the dead lion devours, where they are banished from God and hope forever. Where they are held in punishment awaiting the resurrection of the dead which raises the existing spiritual body of a person to his/her final domain.
Please note that the doctrine of the Resurrection of the dead involves the natural body dying and the spiritual waiting to be raised either to glorification to live with God forever without sin or everlasting contempt — recompense in the lake of fire. The Resurrection of the dead, you could say, seals the deal.
Read 1Corinthians 15:42-58
Many mistakenly confuse the event of physical death and its immediate judgment with the resurrection of the dead and the final sentencing of judgment. Doing so, they mistakenly combine the two events into some kind of sleep state nonsense.
The bible uses images that people can relate too. For example, the dead look asleep. To awake means arise from slumber. When you slumber, are you dead or still alive? Do you dream? The dead will never know this mortal life again — they will awake first to judgment and wait for the final sentencing. Immediately after death they experience in the prison, pit, Sheol, grave, Hades their own living nightmares reaping what they have sown until the final sentencing takes them to a new living reality forever in the lake of fire.
Do not believe this? What of Hebrews 9:27 then? - “ And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment…” Immediately after death comes what? The word 'Judgment' translated here means trial, separation process, selection process; a verdict arrived at, a sentence commuted. One can correlate that the prison, pit, Sheol described in the bible is liken to a holding center, or intake area, where inmates are temporarily housed till final sentence is decreed and then they go serve their sentence elsewhere.
After all, 'there is no rest for the wicked!' 'And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment!' This is a true statement: “the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.”
The doctrines of soul sleep are false and based upon the ways of the world. God's word cuts to the heart of the matter.
Instead of trying to use scripture to prove soul sleep why just not simply come out and be honest and state why you hate the concept that the bible so clearly teaches about hell and the afterlife?
You, who hold the doctrines of soul sleep, find it repugnant that God can send such nice people as ourselves to hell for eternal punishment forever? Is that it or something else? What is the real heart felt reason? We can discuss this rationally as long as you are honest but if not — you'll never discover truth that will set your heart free about such eternal matters.
All bible quotes from ESV
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My apologies if I offended you Jenway3, So I'll approach this another way...
It is predicable that many would attempt to make the message of an eternal hell more palatable to the human psyche. Soul sleep, limited punishment, or annihilation is seen as a healthy more humane treatment of the doctrine of hell. Thus many restructure biblical word meanings, misquote myriads of bible passages, in order to justify assuaging the human soul with non-threatening softness.
Those that attempt to re-translate and reshape the doctrine of hell to fit a more humane world view need to ask some serious question regarding their doctrine. For example regarding all the varied doctrines of soul sleep, these basically teach in varied forms that after a person dies they fade into some type of restful sleep like the slumber of the dead where the dead feel nothing, hear nothing, taste nothing, and see nothing. In other words, immediately after dying a person just sleeps in a state of dark nothingness.
According to this view, a person who dies does not instantly enter either heaven or hell or experience judgment of any kind and any scripture that speaks otherwise is simply explained and opined away in appeals to assuage human flesh. After this sleep state the dead are suddenly awakened in some distant future to be judged where some will enter heaven and others a lake of fire either consisting of temporary punishment, or annihilation into non-existence, or even eternal torment. This is proof text by misinterpretation of scripture such as Daniel 12.
The problem with such soul sleep doctrines is that these cannot be reconciled to the basic law of contradiction used to determine the true from the false. If something is true that means there is an opposite that is false. The bible clearly teaches that after ones dies then comes instant judgment by God which determines ones eternal destiny in either the bliss of heaven or the punishment of hell. In either of these states people are awake and conscious and are not asleep in the slumber of death.
Those that hold any of the varied views of soul sleep need to question their doctrine and stop attempting to bend God's Word to the will of man.
It is you who hold the doctrines of soul sleep that will have to explain away the meanings of these verses:
Revelations 20:12-13, “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.”
Now note that Death and Hades gave up their dead. Now who were those mentioned being in Hades? Isaiah 24:21-23 begins to reveal who: “On that day the LORD will punish the host of heaven, in heaven, and the kings of the earth, on the earth. 22 They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished. 23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the LORD of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and his glory will be before his elders.”
Note that God gathers those from the pit, who are shut up in a prison and who after many days spent where — in a prison — a pit — will receive their final sentence and punishment.
Now turn to Psalms 9: 17 as it too reveals who is in Hades: “The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.” It does not say Lake of fire but Sheol — the prison… the pit…Hades…hell. This is the prison that the dead are shut up in mentioned in Isaiah 24:23. [Note - the pit, Sheol, is also at times called the grave and even Hades in the LXX]
Isaiah 24:23 describes something in common that the Western Criminal Justice system can relate too. The bad guys are arrested and held in a place of collection and after a while they receive a hearing then a final sentence in the future where they serve the rest of their sentence somewhere else beside the holding facility. This is what Isaiah is revealing and this also line up with Revelations chapter 20's theme.
Don't believe me? Think that those mentioned in Hades are just sleeping unaware until the time of the white throne judgment then read:
Isaiah 38:17-18, “Behold, it was for my welfare that I had great bitterness; but in love you have delivered my life from the pit of destruction, for you have cast all my sins behind your back. 18 For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness.”
Those down in the pit 'do not hope' and to 'do not hope' describes a state of conscious being. A state of sleep of nothingness cannot define a state of being without hope. Being without hope is a living emotion. To have emotions means you are alive and conscious of the fact that those in Sheol have no hope for God's faithfulness as they missed God's salvation of casting away the sins of them that believe in him. Those that missed this, the wicked experience no more hope. This describes consciousness.
A person being awake and conscious in hell and the afterlife is furthered explained in Isaiah 57:20-21, “But the wicked are like the tossing sea; for it cannot be quiet, and its waters toss up mire and dirt. 21 There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
In slumber of soul sleep it is usually taught as consisting of peace, rest, non-knowing, and unconscious but the bible does not teach this; instead, “There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
Now before you holler and say this is not true and cannot possibly mean that immediately after death judgment and punishment in Sheol, hell, the pit comes. Hmmm read - Isaiah 55:11, “so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.”
Note Ecc 3:14 it states: “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.” And again in Ecc 3:17-19: “ I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts." None Righteous - no not one: remember who said that?
There is no rest for the wicked anywhere on earth or in hell — the prison — this pit will give up its dead for the final reckoning. In this pit, these will have NO REST. Just as Peter describes: 2 Peter 2:9, “…The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.”
Note what this verse says - The unrighteous will be kept under punishment, where they have no rest — no sleep! As it is written there is no rest for the wicked. You who disagree have a lot to explain away as it plainly states that the Lord knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment. Since the bible states clearly they'll be kept in punishment until the final day of judgment, such person's are conscious and awake experiencing this and not asleep. Just as Jesus stated 'Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched,' Mark 9:48.
You also have to explain away Ezekiel 32 because those there in the pit are described as awake, conscious, seeing and speaking. What I write lines up with Luke 16 parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Those of you that disagree, your doctrine-does not line up with what Jesus said as well as the Father. Instead your doctrine lines up with the way of the world.
Why would God say there is no rest for the wicked and that he knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment if he were to let the dead sleep peacefully unaware of anything, then wake them up to toss them into a lake of fire of annihilation to non-exist? Or toss them in to temporary punishment of some type or even wait to punish forever after giving them a little rest? There is no rest for the wicked says the Lord. Likewise there is no soul sleep in any form as it would make God violate his own word.
Next, you that disagree will have to answer to this:
Revelation 7:9, 13-14, “After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" 14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
Funny how that the judgments and resurrections mentioned in Revelation 20 had not happened at this point so who are these people? How could they be there in heaven since according to your doctrines of soul sleep these should all be asleep in the grave till the final trump sounds! However, they are in Heaven before it sounds! You who hold the doctrines of soul sleep do not have answers for these scriptures as these point to a time after death and these prove both the godly and ungodly dead are conscious, spiritually alive, awake and not sleeping the slumber of death before the final judgment.
What of Luke 16:22-24, “The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'”
The angels carried the poor man away when - At the end of time or instantly? Sounds like both were very much awake and eternally alive as God places eternity in the heart and what he does he does forever. The gifts are callings of God are irrevocable.
What about Psalms 49:7-15-20, “Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, 8 for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, 9 that he should live on forever and never see the pit. [Note: this should clue you in to whom Jesus is as only God can save — not man].
“10 For he sees that even the wise die; the fool and the stupid alike must perish and leave their wealth to others. 11 Their graves are their homes forever, their dwelling places to all generations, though they called lands by their own names.
“12 Man in his pomp will not remain; he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This is the path of those who have foolish confidence; yet after them people approve of their boasts. Selah
“14 Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed [this word means to wear out by toil] in Sheol, with no place to dwell.
“15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah
“16 Be not afraid when a man becomes rich, when the glory of his house increases. 17 For when he dies he will carry nothing away; his glory will not go down after him. 18 For though, while he lives, he counts himself blessed --and though you get praise when you do well for yourself-- 19 his soul will go to the generation of his fathers, who will never again see light. 20 Man in his pomp yet without understanding is like the beasts that perish.”
Ecc 3:21-22, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22, “So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?” [note-Jesus can]
Next how about these verses and what they reveal:
Matthew 12:43, "When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. “
Zechariah 9:11, “As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit.” [The pit is describe hot, dry, waterless, and also as place of flames in Luke 16 account]
Matthew 12:40, “For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
Ephesians 4:8-10, “Therefore it says, "When he [Jesus] ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." 9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)”
Act 2:25-28, 31, “For David says concerning him, "'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken; 26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope. 27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence…' Act 2:31, “he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.”
1 Peter 3:18-19, “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison.”
It does not sound like those to whom Jesus preached to were asleep! Also how could Jesus speak if he was in the dust sleeping himself? The doctrine of soul sleep is false.
You see, the bible does not support such false doctrines that support soul sleep in any form or style no matter how many scriptures are twisted to support the ways of the world on this matter. The bible declares something else other than soul sleep.
Now, I will close with Ecclesiastes 9:3-6:
Ecclesiastes 9:3, “This is an evil in all that is done under the sun that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.”
Ecclesiastes 9:4-5, “But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.”
He who is joined to the living Lord has hope. Though we are dogs God transforms those that have joined themselves to the Lord into kings and priest and we are remembered in the book of life where our names are inscribed. Those that join death's lion and share its pride have no hope. Satan roars like a lion seeking whom to devour. Principle: join your self to the living Lord and forsake the pride of the dead lion.
Why — because: Ecclesiastes 9:6, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.”
They have no more share in the land of mortals and this means they have been cut of from mortal life, separated from it, and no more share in it. Instead they found a place where the wicked have no rest, a place where the dead lion devours, where they are banished from God and hope forever. Where they are held in punishment awaiting the resurrection of the dead which raises the existing spiritual body of a person to his/her final domain.
Please note that the doctrine of the Resurrection of the dead involves the natural body dying and the spiritual waiting to be raised either to glorification to live with God forever without sin or everlasting contempt — recompense in the lake of fire. The Resurrection of the dead, you could say, seals the deal.
Read 1Corinthians 15:42-58
Many mistakenly confuse the event of physical death and its immediate judgment with the resurrection of the dead and the final sentencing of judgment. Doing so, they mistakenly combine the two events into some kind of sleep state nonsense.
The bible uses images that people can relate too. For example, the dead look asleep. To awake means arise from slumber. When you slumber, are you dead or still alive? Do you dream? The dead will never know this mortal life again — they will awake first to judgment and wait for the final sentencing. Immediately after death they experience in the prison, pit, Sheol, grave, Hades their own living nightmares reaping what they have sown until the final sentencing takes them to a new living reality forever in the lake of fire.
Do not believe this? What of Hebrews 9:27 then? - “ And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment…” Immediately after death comes what? The word 'Judgment' translated here means trial, separation process, selection process; a verdict arrived at, a sentence commuted. One can correlate that the prison, pit, Sheol described in the bible is liken to a holding center, or intake area, where inmates are temporarily housed till final sentence is decreed and then they go serve their sentence elsewhere.
After all, 'there is no rest for the wicked!' 'And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment!' This is a true statement: “the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.”
The doctrines of soul sleep are false and based upon the ways of the world. God's word cuts to the heart of the matter.
Instead of trying to use scripture to prove soul sleep why just not simply come out and be honest and state why you hate the concept that the bible so clearly teaches about hell and the afterlife?
You, who hold the doctrines of soul sleep, find it repugnant that God can send such nice people as ourselves to hell for eternal punishment forever? Is that it or something else? What is the real heart felt reason? We can discuss this rationally as long as you are honest but if not — you'll never discover truth that will set your heart free about such eternal matters.
All bible quotes from ESV
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Oh, and one more thing. It states plainly in the bible that the punishment for sin is DEATH, so therefore the wicked will be DEAD, not be "burning forever" as you claim. Eternal punishment=eternal death. Eternal reward=eternal life with Jesus.
I agree with ALMOST everything here except for the "great gulf fixed". These verses here are actually showing that sin in all form cuts people off from God. God is Holy, He cannot have contact with sin. The rich man's sins had completely cut him off from any access to God. That is why Abraham said that no one on either side of this gulf was able to cross to the other side. The "gulf" here is our sins, which have separated us from God. Until we repent and accept Jesus, we cannot cross this "gulf" to be with God.
