the need for a bible

[the sleep of reason]

Sleep,

Maybe a clue would help you in answering the question I am asking about Newton. He was a very religious man who wrote more about scripture than he did about science.

haha. you know what? i had FIVE finals between friday afternoon and saturday morning to finish my degree and graduate this weekend. the heck if you're going to test me now! haha.

i know newton was religious--i know that he only put science in the terms of his understanding as it was created by God. however, he didnt believe in the trinity. he struggled at cambridge because of this internal conflict.

and he applied himself more to alchemy than the things we know him for. he just never achieved anything in alchemy, probably because it's claptrap, but also he kept it secret.

i wont hide the fact i HATE math. i cant do calculus. but i'm fascinated by newton's scientific genius in the scope of his spirituality. i wish everyone was like him. i dont believe science contradicts spirituality, at all.


my point in bringing up archemedes and newton is that they have invented (or discovered depending on your philosophical view) INSANELY complex mathmatical principles.
the babylonians were into complex mathmatical ratios as well. the fact that these complexities can be embedded into scripture does not necessarily proof divinity of that text. my point was if mathmatical complexity is a basis of divinity in and of itself in a text then surely one discovering calculus without prior knowledge of such things (archemedes) would have to be considered somewhat divine? heck maybe they were divinely inspired--newton sure stands the chance of that...

but hebrew and greek are mathmatical languages so mathmatical patterns are inevitible.

[zoegirl]

I will ask you this, then, in light of your response to Gman.

You want there to be multiple pathways of salvation.

Why, if we can be made acceptable in God's eyes simply by praying five times a day, or doing X, or living Y, or fulfilling some sort of formula, why the need for God's incarnation in His son, Jesus Christ?

Why sacrifice this Son of God, why kill HIm?

Why was a sacrifice even needed? Why was there even a need for a "perfect lamb". What was the purpose of His death, merely as a good example? Then we a resurrection? Why conquer death, if we can be made righteous simply by praying a certain number of times a day?

If by worshipping a sacred cow will get you to heaven, or if meditating and finding nirvana will make you acceptable to God, if worshipping Buddha will make you right with God, if having 500 Gods and worshipping them is a means of salvation....if all of these are simply a reflection of people's understanding of God (and if God understands this and smiles benignly at their misconception), if all of these are just parts of one great big cog in the machine of salvation, then the question remains.....

Why bother sacrificing your own son? If all we need is a good example, then His death is meaningless. Let Jesus be our good example, much like Muhammed, a prophet to follow. HOWEVER....If we need His death on the cross to pay for our sins, IF CHRIST"S DEATH ON THE CROSS IS EFFECTUAL AND IMPUTES RIGHTEOUSNESS TO US, then this is meaningful, significant, and yes, necessary.

You can't have it both ways...either Christ's death is the payment for sin and is necessary, or it is meaningless.

I belienve the answer to these questions is highly significant, because these texts do not preach the same worldview and thus cannot be parts of some big salvation machine.

For all of the other means of "righteousness" either assumes that we just need to practice to become good (meditating to achieve a focus) and we aren't really that bad, or they assume that we can work out our salvation by performing some formula (do this, perfom that)

Scripture declares that God is a just God. And He will not condemn a person without that justice. I don't pretend to understand how this will happen with the proverbial African pygmies, but God is a just God. But scripture does proclaim that Christ is the only way. These two truths will be reconciled, because there are plenty of things outside our realm that we simply don't understand.


(congratulations, btw, on finshing finals and graduating )

[frankbaginski]

Sleep,

I was in college for ten years, get a grip. A simple I don't know is so easy for me. Why must you go off on a tangent? Take a deep breath and relax. You have until your life ends to figure this out.

[the sleep of reason]

zoe,

i rebutt with a question myself--

why the old testament? why sacrifice actual animals to please God? why did noah do all that if his efforts would become meaningless and obsolete later on?

i wont hesitate to say i dont know--but i will attempt to explain what i do understand. i believe the point of the jesus story is a symbolic representation to implore us to 1. understand what God wants/means to us and 2. help us understand the gravity of his love.

you have to evaluate what REALLY happened. did GOD die on the cross? NO. were there days of God being dead? or did the human representative of God die? i think it's the second. and i think it was to prove something to us, to show us something, and that message is very important.

but what is the END result of that message? i'm attempting to answer your questions but you do not answer mine. IS christ dying on the cross and simply saying "ok i believe that' the END of salvation? or is that a means to an end--the end being us saying "WOW, that's amazing, God is great, i will follow HIm and try to live FOR Him and like Him." i think it's the second, again--i think it was a method to show us what God is and why we should follow Him.

now, i never said worshipping false idols will save you. but i havent SEEN christ die on a cross. i just have historical evidence of it. however what i HAVE seen is God move in my life and in the life of others. i've seen bonafied jesus-fire miracles in my life. and i have to say those things move me to understand the power of God waaay more than any story in ANY book. ANY BOOK. God is kenetic, and His ever-presence moves me to be more godly. much much moreso than historical text.



it is for these reasons i chose to follow Him. not because of the passion play. does that make my salvation less valid?
is that wrong? that's why i'm here, to figure that out.

likewise, what if someone really CAN truly find God via islam?

i think making the judgment that they cant is to imply you know God's mind.

btw dont be condesending about other religions--islam doesnt say 'ok pray five times a day and voila you're in' any more than christianity says "if you say this guy realyl died on this cross voila you're in.'

dont over simplify.

my point is the abrahamic religions fundamentally all teach that the final end of salvation is the same. the only difference is the catalyst that they think should be the thing that inspires you to start on that path.

accepting christ is NOT the 'end' of salvation. it is the catalyst christians say should be the starting point of you on the journey to finding God. it's the changes in your heart and soul that occur after this catalyst that makes you sactified--not the even itself.

if this path and end result can be achieved via islam or judaism, maybe it's not wrong?

answer this, if nothing else: if you believe christ is the ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN, then what justice is there for pre-columbian americans?

we take for granted the world is a small place now, but that's so recent in human history. christianity was confined to the middle east for hundreds of years. what about all the people that lived in the meantime elsewhere?
according to your docturine, they all went to hell, for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. you say you wont pretend to know what God's plan is for them--but to allow for a loophole for those people is to say perhaps there's ANOTHER way other than christianty. it's black and white. they are either in hell for living in the wrong place OR God is bigger than that.

(i fixed some typos. i go real fast and dont look back, sorry.)

[the sleep of reason]

Sleep,

I was in college for ten years, get a grip. A simple I don't know is so easy for me. Why must you go off on a tangent? Take a deep breath and relax. You have until your life ends to figure this out.

it was a joke. note the 'hahs'

[Gman]

gman,

i think we are on the same page about most things, but my conflict is something you seemed to have resolve for yourself.

you agree that a God is both cappable absolving a non-christian as well as divining wisdom on anyone else for their text. but you choose to be a christian and choose the bible as the infallible word.

this is correct?

Yes correct... Except for their text or doctrine..

assuming it is, i want to ask how you reconcile the contradiction that says Christ is the ONLY way? my problem is if chris is the ONLY way, that means biblically i'd have to believe all else will not achieve absolution. that's my primary conflict.

I don't want to answer it directly... I think you already may know what the answer may be. What does it mean to you that Christ is the ONLY way? What does that mean?

so i seek to determine if the bible is one cog is a giant machine of salvation, or if the bible IS the machine of salvation. see what i mean, see the different?

I think that God brings and is salvation...

i believe the bible is God's word, but the bible doesnt say "have no faith in men, well--except for the ones that wrote this, they were divinely protected and perfect while they wrote this.' it just says they were inspired--that doesnt mean perfect or flawless--as flaws are found everywhere in the bible. that, to me, connotes the bible IS holy but is not the be-all-end-all, singular method of salvation. it makes it seem more like a single cog in a larger machine. full of value and importance but not the final word on the matter of salvation.

Again, I would ask you what is the basic underlying message of God and the Bible?

i dont see how ANY docturines could say anything but "this and no other." humans are inclined to press their luck.
q-tip boxes tell you not to put them in your ear on the back of the box--because we're dumb and would stab our brains. but that's what they are for, to put in our ears. so i believe there's no other way for a bible to be except to say "JUST DO THIS, DONT ASK." but that could just be an over simplification.

I think it is ok to ask questions.... That is how we learn.

just like the bible simply says "DONT KILL." it doesnt say "dont kill unless someone killed your sister, then you can electrocute them." or "dont kill unless it's war." it's black and white and doesnt address the grey.

I believe the verse is saying not to murder... Perhaps black and white to the murderer, grey to the prosecutor.

and i understand why--because we'd press our human luck. we'd rationalize sin. but i dont think this automatically means things really ARE so black and white in reality, i dont know that God is so black and white.

Is love always black or white or is it colorful?

[frankbaginski]

Almost nobody knows about the personal life of Newton. It really does not matter. Your response speaks volumes. I would recommend you slow down and absorb what you have already been exposed to. Try talking to God, it may feel real weird at first, I know I had a very hard time. It gets easier every time you do it. Now I can't imagine a day going by without prayer.

You may be looking to this site to bring you closer to God or at least give you answers. It may indeed do that. I would recommend you read the Bible cover to cover. I did and I was amazed but I did not become a Christian. It was the search inside that lead me to Christ.

Why do we sacrafice animals to God?

Only through the sheding of blood is forgiveness given. The first time this happened is right after the Fall ( after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit) God gave them skins of animals to wear. This is an alusion to Christ coming to earth and sheding His blood for our sins. The sacrafice will continue in the new earth. I think this will be in rememberance of Christ dying on the cross.

Your getting way ahead of yourself. Just make a list of all of the things you think are odd and then research them in scripture. Trust that the answers you get are meaningful. God made the universe. He did not make a different one for each of us. Be careful not to place yourself in a position to judge God. It does not work that way. Be real careful of new age type of thinking. The world will try and pull you away. You may lose all. Don't be concerned. Stay focused on the goal.

[the sleep of reason]

Almost nobody knows about the personal life of Newton. It really does not matter. Your response speaks volumes. I would recommend you slow down and absorb what you have already been exposed to. Try talking to God, it may feel real weird at first, I know I had a very hard time. It gets easier every time you do it. Now I can't imagine a day going by without prayer.

You may be looking to this site to bring you closer to God or at least give you answers. It may indeed do that. I would recommend you read the Bible cover to cover. I did and I was amazed but I did not become a Christian. It was the search inside that lead me to Christ.

Why do we sacrafice animals to God?

Only through the sheding of blood is forgiveness given. The first time this happened is right after the Fall ( after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit) God gave them skins of animals to wear. This is an alusion to Christ coming to earth and sheding His blood for our sins. The sacrafice will continue in the new earth. I think this will be in rememberance of Christ dying on the cross.

Your getting way ahead of yourself. Just make a list of all of the things you think are odd and then research them in scripture. Trust that the answers you get are meaningful. God made the universe. He did not make a different one for each of us. Be careful not to place yourself in a position to judge God. It does not work that way. Be real careful of new age type of thinking. The world will try and pull you away. You may lose all. Don't be concerned. Stay focused on the goal.

i dont know what you mean by almost all of this--

as for newton: what i said about his life and spirituality is based on his personal encrypted journals. his words.
nova made a good documentary on it, i have the torrent location if you would like to download it.

as for my wisdom or knowledge of this stuff: im going to say you're being a condesending jerk here, dude. dont presume what i have or have not read. dont test me with esoteric newton nonsense then go 'ha, Q.E.D. you must not pray or read the bible.'
you didnt ask my biblical understanding or background. i'm the son of a pastor and have been in church for all my life. i'm 27 now and have finished one of two degrees and four minors this past week. all of the questions i ask serve the purpose for me to gather insight as to what OTHERS think about all this stuff. yes, i do have a conflict, but that conflict came after a lifetime of feeling i had a total understanding of christianity and accepting the bible (that i read) as absolute truth and feeling secure in my salvation. that security was shaken up when i met first some muslims from germany in college and then a mormon guy. those two experiences cause my whole world to open up.
it started with me talking to the germans about God and convincing them to go to church with me. they were so open to the idea and only requested i go to mosque with them. this seems simple but it astounded me. OF course i will NOT go. why on earth would i? christ is the only way, why would i even entertain the notion of anything else? why even learn about it? they said ok, why should we listen to you? go to your church? read your bible? we came from germany, from a part where almost everyone is islamic. before that they lived in turkey were there werent hardly any christians at all. they have had little to no exposure to christianity due to their geographic location, and NOTHING MORE. however they were TRULY on fire for God. they were righteous men, full of love and willingness and only lived to do God's will.

how on earth could they be wrong but i 'm right?

that question started a spiritual regrowth in me that has been tedious, meticulous, and VERY hard on me. as a staunch christian, it was very difficult to concede the notion perhaps God loves muslims, too. perhaps they have a fair shot at heaven like me, even tho they lived in the mountains of turkey, away from western media and christian teachings. and i have to be honest that this idea conflicts the christian bible.

to say ANYONE could EVER, in the history of the world past christ could EVER go to heaven without doing the new-testament stuff is to say the bible isnt 100% infallible.
mybe i'm overthinking something many christians never even consider. i've asked hundreds of pastors, deaconds, and every one from all sects of christianity and they all say "well God can save ANYONE." well, EVERYONE is an ANYONE, so that means ANYONE can go to heaven without accepting Christ. so how can you say this is absolute truth, the only path, etc etc? it's black, it's white.

my conclusion thus far is that God is bigger that christianity. that He IS love, and that we do not know who is saved and who is not.

i cant see how you can say i'm pretending to know God's mind--i'm one of only two of us here thus far who refuses to pretend we DO know who God will absolve.
i know the bible, and if you think i've been able to speak of scriptures and my understanding of hebrew text, the torah, qua'ran and koran, history of biblical translation or anything else colors me as ignorant or unsaved is wrong.

furthermore, to keep this civil, i'll thank you, frank, to NEVER EVER AGAIN pretend to know how often God and i commune. i've not questioned anyone's faith or heart here, so dont question mine.
i'm asking questions seeking a commonality in understanding of the value of the bible. nothing more. do not question my heart.

perhaps none of you can understand trying to reconcile the fate of the world beyond your own mortal soul. i know in my heart that i've done all i can do to be one with God. if what i have done is not enough, i will spend my torment in hell with COMPLETE SATISFACTION THAT I DID MY BEST with NO regrets. i will not suffer, for i did all my mere human brain and heart could to praise and glorify God. i seek God as fervently as a human being can. what more can i do?
these questions serve to reconcile my relationship to christianity for the sake of fellowship. and to help me establish what creedance i put in sacred texts--including the torah and the new testament.

[the sleep of reason]

gman,

i like your candor.

about murder: i've heard this a lot. but logically i have to ask what is murder? to kill with no reason? what if they slept with your wife? killing in self-defence isnt murder? but the bible doesnt clarify this. however God does call us to war and orders human-on-human killing often.
it starts getting grey when you talk in terms of war. civilian casualities in wartime, accidental deaths during bombings, friendly fire--etc.
what about samson? God granted him the strength to kill a whole heapin' group of people. i dont see how at least ONE of those people couldnt be considered murder. my point is i think any docturine would have to be black and white because humans already try to rationalize our way into doing something wrong.

about love:

i wont pretend to really even understand what love is. in human terms there's so many levels of it--man i just dont know. i love pizza isnt like i love my soulmate isnt like i love pop music isnt like God loves ME. that's something my feeble brain cant grasp.
you ask if it's black and white. i think it's either black OR white, i think it's probably extreme but only in one direction. i'd say colorful but that's not saturated enough. i think love is the absolute saturation.

however, love and love alone is only a bi-product of salvation. not a key factor in determining salvation. it's a chicken or the egg sort of thing but love alone wont save us, will it?

[Canuckster1127]

YOu say that you don't consider yourself completly "strictly" Christian. May I ask what you understand Christianity to be? How does a person become a Christian? HOw does one become saved? (I know this may seem off topic, humor me)

i understand christianity to be an absolute acceptance that the ONLY way to salvation/heaven is to accept that jesus IS God and worship Jesus, NOT God as a singular entity but ONLY as a trinity. likewise you have to believe that this is the singular path, thereby denying any validity in any other forms of abrahamic religions. you ask jesus to be your guiding force. it's jesus-centric.

a person becomes a christian by asking Jesus into your heart, which theoretically means you will spend the rest of your life past that point attempting to not sin, while accepting you WILL sin, and asking for forgiveness when you do. from jesus.

salvation, via christianty, comes in this asking for jesus guidance. while works are not specifically the path to righteousness, there's a comingling for sure of works and salvation because again, in theory, you will be a righteous person because you are saved, thereby trying not to sin, trying to love one another and be a godly person.

I'd offer the following to your thoughts.

1. I believe Christianity does at its basic level teach that Christ is the only way of salvation. Within Christianity there are some who have difficulty with the idea that people who haven't heard the message being condemned and whether God is fair in doing that. Salvation in the Old Testament is understood as looking forward to and appropriating the finished work of Christ. Some extend that and make the conjecture that God can attribute that to others as well. I think there are areas here that God has not completely revealed His mind to us and that are rightfully seen to have an element of mystery to it. It's not my job to determine or completely understand what God is going to do in reference to someone else. It is my concern to work out my own salvation in the context of God's dealing with me and my possession of the Gospel message which for me clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is the only way. God is just and not subject to my judgment. I believe he is fair. I trust that this will be handled as God sees fit. The claims of Christ and the teachings of the Bible are very clear in this regard as I read the Scriptures and especially the claims Christ made regarding himself. To apply a quote from Mark Twain, "It's not what I don't understand about the Bible that bothers me, it's what I do."

Acceptance of the Trinity I think you've overstated. I completely believe in the Trinity but it again is a mystery that I cannot explain to my own, let alone someone else's satisfaction on a purely intellectual basis. I'm not sure that intellectual belief in the Trinity is a requirement for Salvation. I do believe however that Jesus is Fully God and Fully Human and that our salvation is based upon Who He is. Saving faith to me is the simplest and least complicated thing there is. Many of these issues are things that Christians aren't even aware of until after they are saved. Important? Absolutely. Requirements for salvation? I believe our salvation is based in What Christ has done, not how smart or theologically correct we are. Christ taught us to come to Him as little Children.

2. Salvation is God's saving work through Christ on our behalf. Again, some have minutely dissected this to a completely logical process that outlines every minute step and attempts to demonstrate how it either it completely dependent upon God and we just passively being worked upon or some see each person as a completely free agent accepting God's universal calling. These are important issues and ones that Scripture has things to say about which are worthy of careful study and prayerful consideration. The issues of how we live after are important as well and Scripture has a great deal to say about it. Complete understanding however or universal agreement within the Church on all those things however have yet to be achieved and I don't imagine that salvation comes after we navigate all of it and come to what we believe is a correct understanding. Salvation comes first, at a time where we can argue that we know the least.

3. Works and faith are another very tangled area. What is cause and what is effect? Again complete understanding of this is not the basis of salvation. That's something we'll spend a lifetime working out and learning about. I rather suspect when we enter into eternity we'll come to have things explained to us in a way and a context that will in the end leave us amazed that we even worried about it while on this earth and each of us will come to realize that we had many misunderstandings about many things.

Again, I see you asking many questions and wrestling with a great deal and I respect that.

I have to ask you again though, have you determined any answer you are prepared to accept and if so on what basis?

We can infinitely jump from question to question and if you're waiting for complete understanding before you make a decision, I can guarantee you that will never come. Many things in the Christian faith we do not understand or begin to appreciate until after we have made the leap to accept Christ and then the basis of our growth is more than just intellect, it is relationship.

There are wonderful books out that address many of the issues you are raising in the field of apolgetics. C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity has always been my favorite but there are others by Josh McDowell and Ravi Zacherias to name just 2 that are good if you want to understand the intellectual reasons that faith in Christ is reasonable. In the end though, God doesn't call on us to have perfect understanding. He calls on us to come to Him through Christ with innocent, naive, humble, child-like faith.

Raising all of these questions are good and part of the process. It's a mere intellectual exercise however, if you haven't determined what you are willing to accept as an answer. Every question you ask will in the end raise several more.

[frankbaginski]

Sleep,

Sorry about that. I did not intend to question your faith. I was trying to share some of my experiences.

The issue about judgement is not understood and probably never will be. There are some clues to the process and I will share my understanding of them.

We are born into a sinfull world and no one can live a life without sin. The only person who did this was Christ. We are given a conscience to guide us and if we listen to it and we are sorry for what we have done we can be forgiven. A sacrafice to God was acknowledgement that there is a God and that you are willing to demonstrate that fact. By making an offering and truly being sorry for your sin the sin can be washed away. So the sacrafice was required and was an alusion to the future event of Christ coming to the earth and sacraficing himself. Now sin can be washed away by asking Christ to wash our sins away. The need to sacrafice an animal is no longer required.

The Bible clearly states that people who die in Christ go to heaven at the time of the rapture. Think of this as a prejudgement that occured before your death.

Now many people will not die in Christ. These people will be judged on works, their life will be examined. I believe that if you believe in God, are a good person, and are sorry for your sins then you are allowed into the kingdom of heaven. But if you deny God exist, deny His creation, and if exposed deny His Word, then you have judged yourself. I think that we judge ourselves by our behavior. Now exactly where this line is drawn I don't have a clue. But a case can be made that there are three different judgement types. One for people who die in Christ. One for people who will be judged by works. And one for the Jews who were blinded to the Word. They may be judged slightly differently than all others.

When people believe in God the creator then they don't worship the creation they worship the Creator. The Bible many times separates the creation from the Creator and it says that we are held accountable to know the difference.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The bottom line is that you don't have to die a Christian to go to heaven. Now it does state that you can't get to heaven by works alone. You must add a faith in God and sorrow for your sins. Now I don't know if I made this any clearer or not.

[Gman]

gman,

i like your candor.

about murder: i've heard this a lot. but logically i have to ask what is murder? to kill with no reason? what if they slept with your wife? killing in self-defence isnt murder? but the bible doesnt clarify this.

I don't know what leads some to murder... Jealousy, rage, hatred? Who knows... I believe our laws deal with these cases appropriately. Our laws are setup to protect the innocent aren't they? And what about the Biblical laws?

however God does call us to war and orders human-on-human killing often. it starts getting grey when you talk in terms of war. civilian casualities in wartime, accidental deaths during bombings, friendly fire--etc.

I believe God doesn't have wars often at all, and not without many warnings... The same could be said with any governing country. Should we dissolve our military for these cases? What should we do with the Hitler types? Was WWII justified? I guess the same applies to our police force.. Should we take away their ability to shoot back at a bank robber?

what about samson? God granted him the strength to kill a whole heapin' group of people. i dont see how at least ONE of those people couldnt be considered murder. my point is i think any docturine would have to be black and white because humans already try to rationalize our way into doing something wrong.

The same could be said about bombs (not that I love them)... They kill many people as well. Should we abolish all bombs or are they justified to be used in certain cases? Does this make our government guilty of genocide perhaps?

And what about those heaps of people killed? Do they go directly to hell?

about love:

i wont pretend to really even understand what love is. in human terms there's so many levels of it--man i just dont know. i love pizza isnt like i love my soulmate isnt like i love pop music isnt like God loves ME. that's something my feeble brain cant grasp.
you ask if it's black and white. i think it's either black OR white, i think it's probably extreme but only in one direction. i'd say colorful but that's not saturated enough. i think love is the absolute saturation.

however, love and love alone is only a bi-product of salvation. not a key factor in determining salvation. it's a chicken or the egg sort of thing but love alone wont save us, will it?

I guess it depends on what love is built on...

[the sleep of reason]

ok, now i feel like we are getting somewhere.

to canuckster:

your input helps a lot. i think you've thought about some of these same things. to answer directly: i am seeking answers for the sake of my better understanding.i dont think salvation is so complex we cannot grasp it. nor do i think we should be in any way punished for evolving past the unquestioning child-like state we are called to maintain. it's part of life--so i dont know what else to do.
i have already accepted many answer i have found, so yes there are answers i am willing to accept. i fully would accept there's but ONE way if logically and spiritually i come to that conclusion. as it stands, i feel very strong that i know where my (and more importantly, other's) salvation lies. no matter what, tho--i will never stop asking these kinds of questions. for as long as i live i will seek truth and fellowship, and further understanding. so yes, i am looking for answers upon which i can calculate decisions i make about my salvation, but even then i will seek more and more truth. this is a matter of infinate complexity and i just dont see how i could ever have satisifactory understanding.

1. christianty agreeably teaches christ is the only way to salvation. i know what you mean about knowing your own salvation and not attempting to understand others, but to that i pose this question: are we not called to spread the gospel? my father, as a preacher, has a debate with my mother about the purpose of life. why did God create us? to glorify Him, i believe. if that is so, is it not a fundamental requirement that we spread His word? that means having a correct understand what what is truth so we dont unknowning teach someone into hell. for this reason, i have to be concerned with other people's salvation--including those i will never meet who never hear the word of God- rammifications exist for them same as the people who i cant convince of God's existence due to lack of miraculous proof. they arent bad people,just detrimentally logical people.
this is why this issue concerns me.

3. i would like you to elaborate on this topic a bit. i agree works alone are not what will save you--but i disagree of their importance. i believe upon salvation a change occurs that makes you better understand works such as charity and kindness, and most of all LOVE. i do not believe a person can be saved yet uncharitable, cruel and unloving. that's impossible. so they are contengient on each other, i believe.

this, of course, brings up the issue of a presto-chango death bed repentence. if hitler repented in his bunker as he was bombed into non-existence, does he get the same absolution as mother theresa?

[the sleep of reason]

frank,

this has been by far the most productive post from you and i thank you for making it.

as you posted here, you understand salvation exactly as I do.

The bottom line is that you don't have to die a Christian to go to heaven. Now it does state that you can't get to heaven by works alone. You must add a faith in God and sorrow for your sins. Now I don't know if I made this any clearer or not.

i cannot see how there can be a loving Creator God and this not be true. i whole-heartily agree. however, doesnt this fundamentally contradict christianity and the bible?

[the sleep of reason]

gman,

about murder:
i do not pretend to know when killing is or is not ok. i pray i never have to make the decision. all i am saying is all of this stuff about when it's ok to kill and not ok to kill is NOT outlined in the bible. it just says "dont kill." even if it said "dont murder"--what does that imply? to only not kill unless you have a good enough reason. without a list of even potential reasons (if not every possible correct reason) to kill, it leaves it kind of wide up.

you ask if i think our laws cover this nicely--i dont know, that's serious stuff i have not the wisdom to deligate. does everyone that kills anyone else deserve to die? no. do all murderers? no. what about police that accidently shoot the wrong kid, thinking he had a weapon? that's murder, no? it's accidental murder, but murder. legally he should be absolved. does that mean he is morally absolved? perhaps more patience would have manifested the child to be not a threat. what if someone breaks in your house for an emergency, seeking help, but you kill the intruder before learning they had a wife dying, in labor in their car? i can say i would storm through someone's door to get help in a situation like that, it's not unlikely for it to happen.

mistaken killings are murder, minus malice. no? it's unjustified killing--

in hebrew they translate "dont kill" into "do not kill without justice." but again this is broad, 'i have justice--he slept with my wife. so i killed him. see? justice." no. but "i have justice--he killed my wife because he hit her, driving drunk. so i killed him." yes? no? maybe?

see how iffy this all gets? i just think there should be elaborations in the bible on issues so important like this.
to be honest i'm not so sure ANY human has the right to choose another human doesnt deserve to life anymore. i dont believe war is a solution to anything. but at the sametime, i DO believe violence is a language and some people only speak that language. you can tell them to act right,but if they only speak violence, i guess you might have to talk to them in their native tongue.
but war is the end result of human uncooperation. it's not necessary if we love each other and seek to understand each other and find solution. and it's not something i like.
but again, at the same time--if i had a way to stop someone from killing me in the moment they tried to kill me, i would kill them. yes. but i think my moral soul would be damaged and i would expect rammifications, morally. so.


about bombs:
i'm sorry, but i'm going to go ahead and say any inventions humankind has made for the purpose of more efficient killing of other humans is worthless. guns and bombs alike. should we not have weapons to protect us? no. i dont think we should give up our armies. but how can you call that device anything but evil? it's a life-taking machine. maybe we need them for insurance against zealots and killers, but that doesnt mean they are good things. nor do i want a part of it. ugh.


about God's call to war:
the OT is FULL of wars. i have a book that calculates the amount of people God killed either directly or because He called other's to war or to kill. such as sampson. there's actually quite a bit of carnage back there.

about casualties of war: do they go to hell? i dont know. it sounds like you are talking about martyrdom. do they simply get access to heaven for dying accidently in rough bombings? that's martyrdom. do you believe in martyrdom?