controversial scriptures

[jenna]

Sorry for being such a smartie, Canuckster. Yes we do need to worry about today only, since tomorrow isn't promised to us. Just how will we know to refuse something if we don't even know what to refuse? I guess that was my main point.

[Canuckster1127]

Sorry for being such a smartie, Canuckster. Yes we do need to worry about today only, since tomorrow isn't promised to us. Just how will we know to refuse something if we don't even know what to refuse? I guess that was my main point.

Maybe it's enough to know that the Holy Spirit of God lives within us and He will be able to guide and direct us should the time come.

I've always found the greatest resource I have as a Christian is not "what" I know, as opposed to "who" I know, and perhaps even more important, whom I am known by.

[B. W.]

B.W., I have stated in another post that I have retracted my belief on soul sleep. I no longer believe this, since the bible teaches soul death, not sleep. I have an answer pending on your earlier post. Meanwhile, in all love and respect, I realize that many may believe that the church founder was a cult leader, but this is simply not true. Jesus Himself said that His "church" would be a "little flock", and would be persecuted and hated by the world. He also stated that Satan was the "god" of this world, and that he has deceived THE WHOLE WORLD. If you believe this, do you not also think it possible that you may have been decieved by Satan? I know I have been, many times, and still am to this day. That is why I post my thoughts and ask questions here, so I may know the truth. God bless.

Soul Death???

Does Jesus promise eternal life or soul death? — in regards to how God designed human beings — what God does last forever — he placed eternity in our hearts means eternal because that is his will: Eternal life with Him through Jesus Christ or Eternal living punishment for those that reject him. Note Ecc 3:11-22

How can punishment [just recompense] be eternal if it ceases to exist?

Two Logic trees:

One -

1--Eternal — last forever — Ecc 3:11-14
2--Soul Death ceases to exist
3--Eternal is not Eternal if it ceases to exist

Two -

1--Eternal — last forever - Ecc 3:11-14
2--Eternal recompense last forever
3--Eternal remains Eternal because it never ends

Conclusion:

Such punishment that makes one cease to exist is not eternal justice as it lets the guilty off the hook for what they have done. True absolute justice instead would give 'such' a place they so desired — life without God — banished forever from God reaping what they have sown.

God demands an account of what we each 'do' with the gift of life that he granted each of us — this proves God's justice absolute. This gift of life last forever for both the bad and the good or it does not accurately reflects who God is. God is just to spare his gift of life granted to each of us from being deleted into non-existence - this proves God's mercy absolute.

If God is a God of the living then such deleting life into non-existence is a contradiction to a God who grants life, who asks men to repent and return to him through Christ Jesus, whose gifts and callings are without reneging, who places eternity in the heart, who does things that last forever, God who requires an account of what is past, etc and etc.

In eternities eternal state if the bad were allowed in God's new heaven and earth they learn that sin has no consequences and would return to it by manipulating God's mercy. likewise, if the bad were just spanked a little while in hell and then allowed in heaven they learn that sin has no consequences and would return to it by manipulating God's love to their advantage. You see, they have the knowledge learnt from the serpent mentioned in Genesis chapter 3.

If the bad were blasted into eternal non-existence then that contradicts who God is himself as the living God. To make life cease to exist in any form contradicts the meaning of the word eternal, everlasting in regards to life that God gives.

God let's life live and holds to account. Them that that reject him — he rejects and justly places them in eternal punishment [recompense] which consist of banishment from God forever. For those that accept him, his work on the cross, he reworks and re-fashions them during this mortal sojourn to live with him forever without possibility of rebellion ever again, justly,rightly, fairly, proving he is true God and Savior.

Mark 12:27, “He is not God of the [soul] dead, but of the living..."

'Soul Death' is a contradiction to the gift of life God himself has given each of us as well as a contradiction to God himself.
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[jenna]

No, it does not let people off the hook, B.W. When everyone is resurrected, the ones who are not granted eternal life will be able to see all the rewards that God has in store for His people, so the unjust will know exactly what they will not receive. They will also know that they will not have another chance, and will be gone for good with no hope for another resurrection. That is why there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, because they also will be facing the lake of fire. Truly a horrible thing.

[B. W.]

No, it does not let people off the hook, B.W. When everyone is resurrected, the ones who are not granted eternal life will be able to see all the rewards that God has in store for His people, so the unjust will know exactly what they will not receive. They will also know that they will not have another chance, and will be gone for good with no hope for another resurrection. That is why there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, because they also will be facing the lake of fire. Truly a horrible thing.

Yes, truly horrible but it begins before then in the place God prepared for the devil and his messengers.

The soul and Spirit of human beings do not cease, or sleep, after death. They are contained and wait for that day when they'll be re-joined to the body. They, meaning our soul/spirit, are alive with the very life God gave us. We remain cognizant and aware. This gift of life remains as it is God who gave this gift.

In this mortal life, all memory of the dead will cease, all their hopes, dreams, desires, loves, and losses will be forgotten by the mortal living. In Mount Joy, PA there is an old Church cemetery where the graves date back to the early 1700's and many stones have lost all ability to read what once was inscribed.

Do you know anything about those interned in these graves at Mount Joy? All memory of them has vanished, yet their soul and spirit still remain in another realm alive and contained. This is precisely what the bible means when it describes all memory of the dead cease and all their thoughts [dreams, desires hopes, loves, fears, wants, what these strove after, etc] cease. They cease to be an effect on the earth. Jesus tells us to lay up our treasures in heaven but what do most people do?

The last enemy is mortal death itself when we are changed and reunited with our bodies so that the final sentence is commuted and scripture is fulfilled. Before that time, those that pass away are judged and wait till the final call, fully aware, cognizant, of where they now reside. In this mortal life we die and our bodies decay returning to dust but our soul/spirit remains because God himself gave us a gift of life that ceases not. In this mortal life, all memory of us vanishes from the land of the mortal living. Lay up treasure in heaven then and not on this earth.

People simply do not realize that there will be a resurrection of the dead while some realize and claim that this is all there is and nothing else remains but sleep after death forgetting that God willed that life he gave endures forever. Many forget that they will be held to account in the immediate hereafter and preach that they will not. Others claim that all God's punishment continues but ceases to punish forgetting that God cannot continue to punish nothing as that is a contradiction.

Eternal punishment is not torture but rather eternal recompense i.e. what a person sows they also reap. People bring this recompense upon their own head. God offers a way of escape. People choose to mock this escape, or mock this recompense, by lessening the severity of a holy sovereign God by even denying he exist or if he does he dare not sentence such a nice person as we.

Tell a criminal, a serial killer that he will be eternally extinguished to non-existence and that person would laugh in your face not caring if he or she were so disposed in this manner.

They would view this as a blessing to them as they would in essence have gotten away with their crimes as well as mocked God as weak for not stopping them earlier. Eternal damnation does not deter the individuals either but knowing that they can escape and rest in non-existence only serves to justify their criminal behavior more as they seek such soul death.

Bible declares that the smoke of their torment rises forever. This does not imply a state of being when punishment ceases to punish. How could that be? Eternal punishment i.e. eternal recompense does not cease at any time as eternal punishment [eternal recompense] cannot not continue to punish nothing.

Punishing nothing is no longer punishment.
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[jenna]

Tell me B.W., what would be your reaction when you finally get to see all that God has in store for you, all His rewards?

[B. W.]

Tell me B.W., what would be your reaction when you finally get to see all that God has in store for you, all His rewards?

As before, humble adoration as God had no business ever saving a wretch like me...
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[jenna]

Tell me B.W., what would be your reaction when you finally get to see all that God has in store for you, all His rewards?

As before, humble adoration as God had no business ever saving a wretch like me...
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Ok, now how would you feel if He presented everything and then told you that you would never have any part in it? How would you feel then?

[B. W.]

Tell me B.W., what would be your reaction when you finally get to see all that God has in store for you, all His rewards?

As before, humble adoration as God had no business ever saving a wretch like me...
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Ok, now how would you feel if He presented everything and then told you that you would never have any part in it? How would you feel then?

As before, humble adoration as God had no business ever saving a wretch like me...

[jenna]

So you think all people believe the same thing you do? That it would not be a terrible punishment? I'm sorry, but you obviously don't grasp just how great God and all the things He will offer are. I admit, I don't fully grasp it yet either, but I do know that It will be beyond our wildest dreams. It will be a terrible thing for all those who don't make it. And they will realize this when they are resurrected.

[B. W.]

So you think all people believe the same thing you do? That it would not be a terrible punishment? I'm sorry, but you obviously don't grasp just how great God and all the things He will offer are. I admit, I don't fully grasp it yet either, but I do know that It will be beyond our wildest dreams. It will be a terrible thing for all those who don't make it. And they will realize this when they are resurrected.

No and I do not expect them too. There is truth and all truth is objective or it cannot be truth. Do you grasp how good God is, Jen, or is his goodness contingent upon your personal viewpoint concerning what defines God's good? God's ways are not our own. As Isaiah 55:8-11 so states. There is a way that uncovers God's ways and it is the road of repentance, it takes the word to make you fall backward and be broken. As I said before, it takes humble adoration as God had no business ever saving a wretch like me, you, or anybody...yet he did and does...none of us deserve this...yet he saves those that come to him through Christ Jesus. The Goodness of God displayed upon the cross.
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[jenna]

I agree with the Goodness of Christ. But just because YOU believe in an "eternal hell" doesn't mean there IS one. Just as I don't believe there is one doesn't mean there isn't. We will all find out the truth upon death. But please do not try to convince me otherwise, and I will no longer try to convince you. We are at a ping-pong table with no solution in between. Who knows, maybe one day we will meet somewhere and be friends.

[BavarianWheels]

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I believe hell is eternal. I just don't believe in eternal continuous suffering.
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[jenna]

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I believe hell is eternal. I just don't believe in eternal continuous suffering.
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Yes, that is exactly my point. When people go to hell after the resurrection, they burn up and are gone forever with no chance of a second resurrection.

[frankbaginski]

This one is a tough one for me.

On one hand I know we have a loving God. So I know He wants all to come to Him. Our reward is to be with Him, He knows more than we do what we need. This of course is heaven. Now the people who chose to turn from God are not rewarded but punished. I have often wondered if the lake of fire is a fire of desire to be with God that can never be fullfilled. The Bible does not contain grey areas when concerning the matters of God, it is pretty black and white. So I think that when it says for ever and ever it means it. The lake of fire may be just that, a lake of fire. I hope not.