Evidence for God from Science

Either Christ is wrong or this OSAS "theology" is wrong.

You yourself said that the truth is Christ. Neither is wrong.

I think I posted it here but Paul is very clear in Romans 8 that nothing can pluck us out of God's hands.

obsolete wrote:I think I posted it here but Paul is very clear in Romans 8 that nothing can pluck us out of God's hands.

I believe this to be true, however, Christ's words/parables suggest that even those that have believed, have accepted the word, can be chocked by life and fall away...so this leads to the conclusion that on must REMAIN in Christ to be safe in God's hand.
.
.

BavarianWheels wrote:

obsolete wrote:I think I posted it here but Paul is very clear in Romans 8 that nothing can pluck us out of God's hands.

I believe this to be true, however, Christ's words/parables suggest that even those that have believed, have accepted the word, can be chocked by life and fall away...so this leads to the conclusion that on must REMAIN in Christ to be safe in God's hand.
.
.

Not so much. Remember the parable of the prodigal son? His father welcomed him back with open arms as if nothing had happened. The same goes for God with us through Christ.
I fell away for a total of 11 years before coming back into fellowship. Are you saying that I'm not really back into fellowship and am out of luck regarding my salvation?

2 Timothy 1:12-13

"If we endure, we will reign with Him. If we disown him, He will disown us.
If we are faithless, He will remain faithful"

The earlier verse shows that if we outright disown him, we can loose our salvation. If that happens though, we can always come back to Him as shown in the prodigal son parable. I've always understood the later verse to mean that even when our faith is weak, God will still keep us with Him so I we won't loss our salvation just because our faith isn't strong enough.

Using John 3:16 to defend the stance that salvatation can't be lost is futile because it only says that salvation can be obtained. It says nothing about whether one can loose it.

obsolete wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

obsolete wrote:I think I posted it here but Paul is very clear in Romans 8 that nothing can pluck us out of God's hands.

I believe this to be true, however, Christ's words/parables suggest that even those that have believed, have accepted the word, can be chocked by life and fall away...so this leads to the conclusion that on must REMAIN in Christ to be safe in God's hand.
.
.

Not so much. Remember the parable of the prodigal son? His father welcomed him back with open arms as if nothing had happened. The same goes for God with us through Christ.
I fell away for a total of 11 years before coming back into fellowship. Are you saying that I'm not really back into fellowship and am out of luck regarding my salvation?

You've come back...haven't you?

seraph wrote:2 Timothy 1:12-13

"If we endure, we will reign with Him. If we disown him, He will disown us.
If we are faithless, He will remain faithful"

The earlier verse shows that if we outright disown him, we can loose our salvation. If that happens though, we can always come back to Him as shown in the prodigal son parable. I've always understood the later verse to mean that even when our faith is weak, God will still keep us with Him so I we won't loss our salvation just because our faith isn't strong enough.

The key here is there's faith still...falling away means faith is lost...having once had it, it can be lost.
.
.

Seraph wrote:2 Timothy 1:12-13

"If we endure, we will reign with Him. If we disown him, He will disown us.
If we are faithless, He will remain faithful"

The earlier verse shows that if we outright disown him, we can loose our salvation. If that happens though, we can always come back to Him as shown in the prodigal son parable. I've always understood the later verse to mean that even when our faith is weak, God will still keep us with Him so I we won't loss our salvation just because our faith isn't strong enough.

I think you may be taking this verse out of context. If, being made in His image and being rightfully His from the begining, we disown, or reject Him and the salvation that He offers, then He will disown us.

Romans 8:38-For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You've come back...haven't you?

I did. Praise and Glory be to God and God alone for that!

BavarianWheels wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:Because they aren't made in God's image.

What makes man savable is that very fact, that he alone is in God's image. Salvation is about the restoration of fallen man to his initial state and confirming him in that righteousness. Obviously, angels/demons (including Satan) have no part in that.

And how is a man saved? Jesus says it is by believing in Him. So, we have have to decide if we believe Him or not. If we do, we are saved. If we don't, we aren't. Sadly, many people don't, and they try to use the Bible to contradict Jesus. But that was going on with the Pharisees, so we shouldn't really be surprised.

It's convenient for you to pick and choose when to promote ONE verse as the only source of truth...and when one must use all scripture to find truth. I guess you have the priviledge of this that from one verse, you can conclude that the 'whoever' is only human when nothing in the verse suggests only human belief...we are sticking simply to John 3:16, right?
.
.

I'm not sure why you are getting sarcastic. Have I been?

Regarding your question, obsolete wasn't attempting to disprove John 3:16 with other Scripture like you are. I didn't say John 3:16 was the only truth in the Bible, but all truth is certainly consistent. And, I've told you before, every single verse you've mentioned I have already dealt with extensively in various posts on these boards. If you want to know how those verses are consistent with John 3:16, then feel free to look them up. But I'm NOT going to let you try to create a contradiction in Scripture.

So, for all your use of other Bible verses to disprove the Bible, YOU--not me--are the one who is denying the Bible. John 3:16 clearly states that everyone who believes has everlasting life and that they won't perish. That's the Gospel. I'm sorry you don't believe it.

Bav, notice what you are saying. You are arguing that Jesus is WRONG. Do you really understand what you are doing? Do you understand the consequences for saying Jesus is wrong about how a person is saved? Do you understand that you are rejecting Jesus' provision of salvation and instead promoting one of your own? It doesn't matter that you use other parts of the Bible to try to make it credible. Every "Christian" cult out there does that.

You have to believe Jesus. He, not I, said it.

WHOEVER BELIEVES HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. Believe Him or not. Your choice.

Jac3510 wrote:I'm not sure why you are getting sarcastic. Have I been?

Accusing me of not believing Christ's words? What would you call that?

Jac3510 wrote:Regarding your question, obsolete wasn't attempting to disprove John 3:16 with other Scripture like you are. I didn't say John 3:16 was the only truth in the Bible, but all truth is certainly consistent. And, I've told you before, every single verse you've mentioned I have already dealt with extensively in various posts on these boards. If you want to know how those verses are consistent with John 3:16, then feel free to look them up. But I'm NOT going to let you try to create a contradiction in Scripture.

Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? You have done this since I started in this thread. I never set out to disprove John 3:16...I simply came to say that OSAS is not true in the context that salvation is of free will and free will is not removed when one believes in Christ...I've given you other texts and words of Christ to prove that one can still fall away when in Christ...but you tell me to go look elsewhere for your explanation. There is no other explanation...it is a culmination of God's word put TOGETHER to form truth. While it is true that whomever believes has everlasting life, is not the end of the story...if it was, that would be all the scripture needed. But I think you know as well as I do, that there is more. A Christian must live the truth...as the scripture says a few verses past John 3:16. Is this other verse a lie?

Jac3510 wrote:So, for all your use of other Bible verses to disprove the Bible, YOU--not me--are the one who is denying the Bible. John 3:16 clearly states that everyone who believes has everlasting life and that they won't perish. That's the Gospel. I'm sorry you don't believe it.

I do believe it, however if we are to believe it as you SUPPOSEDLY do, then Satan is also saved as he is also included in the "whoever"...no where does John 3:16 exclude angels and/or Satan himself. If it does, show me where it plainly states "whoever, except angels and Satan."

Jac3510 wrote:Bav, notice what you are saying. You are arguing that Jesus is WRONG. Do you really understand what you are doing? Do you understand the consequences for saying Jesus is wrong about how a person is saved? Do you understand that you are rejecting Jesus' provision of salvation and instead promoting one of your own? It doesn't matter that you use other parts of the Bible to try to make it credible. Every "Christian" cult out there does that.

This is so laughable!! You're accusing me of saying Jesus is wrong when I'm giving you other words of Christ to clarify the truth? John 3:16 is not wrong, Christ's words are not wrong. It is whoever believes that has everlasting life, however just a few words later CHRIST SAYS THAT ONE MUST LIVE THE TRUTH...explain how one lives the truth and you have your answer on whether OSAS is correct as promoted by apparently you and lots of others.

Jac3510 wrote:You have to believe Jesus. He, not I, said it.

WHOEVER BELIEVES HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. Believe Him or not. Your choice.

I believe it...the question remains whether you believe EVERYTHING Christ says or just the things you like He says...?
.
.

Let me interject here for the moment, if I may.
Psalms 69:13 says-
13 But I pray to you, O LORD,
in the time of your favor;
in your great love, O God,
answer me with your sure salvation.

Please take great heed to the word sure. The Psalmist, even then before Christ's sacrifice, knew that the salvation that comes from God is sure.

Or even I Corinthians 15-
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

obsolete wrote:Let me interject here for the moment, if I may.
Psalms 69:13 says-
13 But I pray to you, O LORD,
in the time of your favor;
in your great love, O God,
answer me with your sure salvation.

Please take great heed to the word sure. The Psalmist, even then before Christ's sacrifice, knew that the salvation that comes from God is sure.

Or even I Corinthians 15-
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No argument here...he's calling upon God...and God does not abandon those that call on Him...
.
.

So obsolete, if i understand you well, you are saying that for example, someone believed in Christ all his life, but then at the end, say last days of his life, he reject Christ, he will still be save?

Lufia wrote:So obsolete, if i understand you well, you are saying that for example, someone believed in Christ all his life, but then at the end, say last days of his life, he reject Christ, he will still be save?

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Yes that person will still be saved. There are two books according to the above verse. The first one is the Book of Life which everyone who has ever been born, there name is written into it. The second is the Lambs Book of Life. If your name is in the Lambs book of Life, by accepting Jesus as your savior only, will you have eternal life. Nothing can strike a persons name from the second book. Jesus "purchased" us when He died on the cross.

Here is another verse:

Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

So, only those who are saved may enter the city. The new Jerusalem.

Something to ponder.

Since Jesus died on the cross for our sins, we are saved through His sacrafice. If we fall away from our faith and come back, is Christ crucified again? Absolutely not!

If we turn from our faith for the rest of our lives does that void out what Jesus did for us on the cross? NO!
If that would be the case, then it would mean that sin would have power over the blood of Christ. But that is not the case at all.

Then I would have to conclude that OSAS is a fact.

A burning question, hopefully to be asked here
Well, it goes back and forth for me... Since childhood, I been told that JC died for our sins. Didnt get that. Then there came confessions and all that. Could never grasp that really why Christians (Catholics) have to say their sins to a priest (human) whereas others do not need to. This has always been quite a trouble for me, since I was afraid of telling some sins, or of now knowing exactly how to say them, etc.

I was told that if you happen to commit a mortal sin and die without having confessed you go to hell. End of story.

I lived with that in my mind, that did not bring any joy to me. SO what's the point of living a good life, do all for JC, love Him, then do one mistake and be in hell?

Then I looked in G&S (~2 yrs ago) and found that to be saved all one must to is accept JC as his savior. great!! -i thought. Only to find out that's an easy saying. One cannot sin badly, murder etc. and say he loves JC. OK, so we ought not really say it's all one must do. If I tell JC I believe in Him, admit I am bad, sinful, say I love Him, do good deeds and then sin badly then that means i cant love Him. OK grasped that also. So accepting JC also means to try to overcome temptation, and actually a WORK we must do. Pray, go to church, do good, not sin, confess, take Holy Communion, support church etc. A long list of things really...

Accepted that, with a critique that saying "accept JC and you're saved" is a deadly simplistic thing... of all the things one must do to be saved.

Then I take my CCC (Catechism of Catholic Church) book I left in my home town and start reading. Find dreadful stuff about hell. That if one does commit a mortal sin and not confess of it (and regret it also) one goes directly to hell?? Why?? That by doing so "one freely chooses to go against God and goes to hell". That again made me unhappy etc. as I felt deceived by the fact that once one accepts JC as Savior he is saved. In that case (if the previous argument holds true) then such things have no meaning. One must die without any heavy sin on him. And that's hard.

These 2 arguments contradict each other greatly. OSAS can't hold true if at ANY time in life I'm threatened with danger of dying with a mortal sin. Then if CHrist died for all and His blood is to save us, how does this work? DOes it work only if we confess?
Now look at other religions. They don't confess directly their sins. Does it mean they can't be saved? We are not to say who is not gonna be saved. If the argument were "they don't have to confess because their religion doesn't require it" is unfair as we are at a disadvantage of having to do it in our way - and we know there is ONE GOD. Had they had their own real God and go into their heaven, that would be different. But since one God for all, this cannot be so.
ANyway the argument in CCC is strong as it is supposed to be a book compiled for Christians. Yet such thing tore me off. What is the point of glorifying God, praying, trying to be good (but failing), taking HC, confessing, believing, etc. if all one must do is do 1 mistake and not have time to confess/regret it? We all do such deadly sins. Imagine we are unlucky, e.g.: we get angry, do some mortal sin, e.g. murder. Yes, bad sin, etc. that we WOULD regret and confess. But as we murder or try to murder, we are shot. Now - we had the deadly sin of wanting to murder (even if we fail we have the will of doing it) but died, didn't have time to confess. How would that do?
We know well that even devote Christians do deadly sins and if every time these were to separate us from God, I don't know... there was some other example i could say or many numerous but don't think there's a point.

Moreover, Jesus says that if we believe Him "our hearts should not be troubled". It is a verse somewhere and heard it quoted. Now how can we not be troubled if at any time we may think something bad, do, say, etc., maybe even regret (but we often don't regret immediately, we need some "time" after which we realize our fault-sin), and the consequence is hell? No way i can be calm, I am not now. I'm afraid some time ago I done something bad, didnt confess of it fully and have the fear of death...

Any ideas?

BavarianWheels wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:I'm not sure why you are getting sarcastic. Have I been?

Accusing me of not believing Christ's words? What would you call that?

Sincere. If you don't believe John 3:16, you don't believe Christ's words. I wasn't being sarcastic. Just honest.

Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? You have done this since I started in this thread. I never set out to disprove John 3:16...I simply came to say that OSAS is not true in the context that salvation is of free will and free will is not removed when one believes in Christ...I've given you other texts and words of Christ to prove that one can still fall away when in Christ...but you tell me to go look elsewhere for your explanation. There is no other explanation...it is a culmination of God's word put TOGETHER to form truth. While it is true that whomever believes has everlasting life, is not the end of the story...if it was, that would be all the scripture needed. But I think you know as well as I do, that there is more. A Christian must live the truth...as the scripture says a few verses past John 3:16. Is this other verse a lie?

I put forward John 3:16 as a clear presentation of the Gospel. You presented OTHER VERSES to refute John 3:16. If you want to talk about how we should understand 3:16 in its context, we will. But I'm not going to let you try to disprove the verse with other verses. If you do, I'll just state the obvious. You don't believe that verse on the basis of other verses.

You say that it is true that whoever believes has everlasting life, but then you say that it is ALSO true that a person can lose his salvation. Those ideas are contradictories. BOTH cannot be true. You can't put them "TOGETHER to form truth." That would be like me saying, "It is true that the shape is a circle, but it is ALSO true that the shape is a square. It is a culmination of ideas we put TOGETHER to form truth."

You'd charge me, rightly, with being irrational.

Now, you either affirm that a person has EVERLASTING LIFE, which, by definition, cannot be lost (else it is no longer everlasting), or you deny that a person has EVERLASTING LIFE. John 3:16 affirms it. You don't. That means you don't believe John 3:16. That means you don't believe the Gospel.

I do believe it, however if we are to believe it as you SUPPOSEDLY do, then Satan is also saved as he is also included in the "whoever"...no where does John 3:16 exclude angels and/or Satan himself. If it does, show me where it plainly states "whoever, except angels and Satan."

Ho pisteuwn ("the believing one") refers to human beings. Consider this example:

You just started a new job, and you are in your orientation. The instructor says, "Now, anyone who is caught on the cell phone during store hours will have their phones confiscated."

The next day, you see a customer with a cell phone, and you report it to your boss, expecting it to be taken from them. Will it be? Of course not. "Anyone" in context of the speech referred to all employees. In the same way, "Anyone who believes" refers to human beings, for what does the verse say:

"For in this way, God loved the world: He gave His Only Son, that everyone who believes in Him will never perish, but will instead have everlasting life." (My translation). Does "the world" include angels/demons? No, nor does it refer to cats, rocks, monkeys, or trees. As the context of John 3 makes clear, Jesus is referring to humanity (which, for the record, is an acceptable translation of kosmos. See the TDNT III:889: "kosmos = World as Humanity, Fallen Creation, the Theatre of Salvation History").

Thus, according to John 3:16, salvation is only available to that part of humanity (kosmos) that believes (ho pisteuwn), and then, it is granted to every (pas) believer without exception. What is granted is eternal life, life that will NEVER be lost, and therefore, the person themselves will NEVER perish.

This is so laughable!! You're accusing me of saying Jesus is wrong when I'm giving you other words of Christ to clarify the truth? John 3:16 is not wrong, Christ's words are not wrong. It is whoever believes that has everlasting life, however just a few words later CHRIST SAYS THAT ONE MUST LIVE THE TRUTH...explain how one lives the truth and you have your answer on whether OSAS is correct as promoted by apparently you and lots of others.

There is nothing laughable about a person denying the Gospel, Bav. Regardless, the text does NOT say that a person must LIVE the truth. Allow me to quote it for you:

"But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light"

Notice it says that IF you live by the truth, THEN you come to the light (believe). It does not say that once you believe, you must then LIVE by the truth. So your claim is simply false.

I believe it...the question remains whether you believe EVERYTHING Christ says or just the things you like He says...?

Of course I do, but nothing Jesus says will INVALIDATE what He said in John 3:16. If you want to have a separate discussion on other things Jesus said, feel free to start another thread. We can talk about them all day long if you like. But NOTHING He says will disprove John 3:16, unless, of course, Jesus was wrong in 3:16 (or wrong somewhere else).

The charge is serious, Bav.

1. The Gospel is that every single person who believes has everlasting life.
2. A person who has everlasting life can never die.
3. Therefore, a person who believes can never die.
4. If a person died after being saved, they would have lost their salvation.
5. Therefore, a person cannot lose their salvation.

Thus,

1. The Gospel is that a person cannot lose their salvation;
2. Bav believes that a person can lose their salvation;
3. Therefore, Bav does not believe the Gospel.

Forgive me for being so blunt, Bav. This is not a laughing matter. Paul certainly didn't approve of those who preached another Gospel . . . of all issues we should be able to be candid about, this one should top the list.

edit:

MS,

You are exactly right in your post. It IS contradictory to say that all we have to do is believe and THEN go on and say all the things that we have to do/not do in order to say we "really believed." The latter IS a works-based-salvation, and it is pure heresy. The person who denies that ALL you have to do be saved is believe denies the Gospel and calls Jesus a liar.

The Gospel is that salvation is by faith alone, and that is the ONLY Gospel. Any "gospel" that denies that will land a person in Hell just as fast as any other false religion will.