Speaking in tongues.

[Kurieuo]

When the extraordinary is involved with "gifts" then I think each case needs to be tested on its own merit and evidence. One of the criteria Christ gives is "fruits of the spirit." Anyone who does not express many personable and relational gifts such as joy, love, peace, patience, faithfulness, honesty, goodness, and so on (and I see these also as spiritual gifts), well such people should be immediately suspected as not having an authentic and God-given gift.

I guess I don't understand... If we were to interpret "tongues" as the gift to spread God's word into different languages, how does that imped our personable and relational gifts such as joy, love, peace, etc..? Does not the gift of being able to speak the languages of other people help people the same way as being to prophecy?

1 Corinthians 12:
28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

I am not really sure what you are responding to...

[Gman]

I am not really sure what you are responding to?

Kurieuo, from what I gathered, it seemed that you were elevating the "gift" of tongues (not talking in a known language) to a personable and relational gift such as joy, love, peace in which a person was fulfilled in babbling in some angelic language and not the other way. I will admit, after I posted, I really wasn't sure what you were advocating either.. Perhaps you could clarify.

[Kurieuo]

I am not really sure what you are responding to?

Kurieuo, from what I gathered, it seemed that you were elevating the "gift" of tongues (not talking in a known language) to a personable and relational gift such as joy, love, peace in which a person was fulfilled in babbling in some angelic language and not the other way. I will admit, after I posted, I really wasn't sure what you were advocating either.. Perhaps you could clarify.

I think you were too quick to argue.

I do not elevate gibberish tongues to the level of more natural gifts of the spirit such as joy, love, peace. I do see how that misunderstanding happened, but what I wrote must have been unclear. That said, I neither condone nor write off "tongues".

Within many charismatic churches, Christians most often use tongues during worship. As mentioned in my last post, I am yet to be convinced it does anything beyond make one feel closer to God during worship or meditations similar to chanting. I do not consider these "tongues" a gift any more than praying to God is a gift. I do not consider these tongues to be extraordinary. They are certainly not the kind of tongues where people hear a spoken word in their own language (which would be an extraordinary gift).

I still believe God can use, and has used, people's beliefs in a quasi gift of tongues for his own purposes. If you have read the story, Chasing the Dragon, then there is one such instance I am inclined to believe. Ironically, I think God uses what would originally be wrong beliefs in "something", and goes along with such beliefs to turn that "something" into a valuable tool for reaching out and accomplishing His own will. In other words, I believe God can use our stupidity to benefit His own will and desire. So for this reason, and other reasons mentioned in this post, I remain neutral on the quasi form of tongues often witnessed in charismatic churches today.

[Gman]

I think you were too quick to argue.

Perhaps.. I think I took it wrong too. Sorry about that mate.

I do not elevate gibberish tongues to the level of more natural gifts of the spirit such as joy, love, peace. I do see how that misunderstanding happened, but what I wrote must have been unclear. That said, I neither condone nor write off "tongues".

Within many charismatic churches, Christians most often use tongues during worship. As mentioned in my last post, I am yet to be convinced it does anything beyond make one feel closer to God during worship or meditations similar to chanting. I do not consider these "tongues" a gift any more than praying to God is a gift.

I think that depends though. Some churches, not all obviously, think that truly shows if a person possesses the gift of the Holy Spirit. A sign (tongues) of the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. If not, well then you don't have it or are not saved. I remember one church that I went to were actually concerned that I didn't speak in tongues (gibberish). In others words, they didn't think the Holy Spirit was in me.

I do not consider these tongues to be extraordinary. They are certainly not the kind of tongues where people hear a spoken word in their own language (which would be an extraordinary gift).

You mean like on the day of Pentecost. Yes, I don't think that would ever be duplicated either. I have witnessed certain people with the natural ability to pick up languages however. Of course not in one day with flames on their heads, but have a basic understanding of language structure and can incorporate that into other unknown languages. Most of that has to do with the understanding of latin which can be a bridge to other languages. As for me, I have a hard time picking up other languages, for others it is more of a natural gift I guess. Maybe it's Holy too..

I still believe God can use, and has used, people's beliefs in a quasi gift of tongues for his own purposes. If you have read the story, Chasing the Dragon, then there is one such instance I am inclined to believe. Ironically, I think God uses what would originally be wrong beliefs in "something", and goes along with such beliefs to turn that "something" into a valuable tool for reaching out and accomplishing His own will. In other words, I believe God can use our stupidity to benefit His own will and desire. So for this reason, and other reasons mentioned in this post, I remain neutral on the quasi form of tongues often witnessed in charismatic churches today.

Yes... True, but then again perhaps some people think we are going crazy too. Or just being dumb.

[Kurieuo]

I think you were too quick to argue.

Perhaps.. I think I took it wrong too. Sorry about that mate.

I do not elevate gibberish tongues to the level of more natural gifts of the spirit such as joy, love, peace. I do see how that misunderstanding happened, but what I wrote must have been unclear. That said, I neither condone nor write off "tongues".

Within many charismatic churches, Christians most often use tongues during worship. As mentioned in my last post, I am yet to be convinced it does anything beyond make one feel closer to God during worship or meditations similar to chanting. I do not consider these "tongues" a gift any more than praying to God is a gift.

I think that depends though. Some churches, not all obviously, think that truly shows if a person possesses the gift of the Holy Spirit. A sign (tongues) of the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. If not, well then you don't have it or are not saved. I remember one church that I went to were actually concerned that I didn't speak in tongues (gibberish). In others words, they didn't think the Holy Spirit was in me.

I think we would be in general agreement with each others views. I know tongues is often used as confirmation of one's spirituality or Christianity by some churches. This does concern me, and I would strongly disagree as you do.

What disheartens me more is that such an attitude is not just limited to tongues, but also positions on creation, end times, and other sorts of beliefs. If you disagree with particular doctrinal beliefs of any church, especially what a pastor or elder believes, you are bound to receive double-takes and even treated as a lesser Christian if considered one at all.

It might surprise some to hear me say I am still to come to grips with organised churches. I am not sure an organisation approach is what Christ intended, nor whether it works. Certainly if you want to indoctrinate people with certain beliefs, but this is bound to be abused, cause hurt, and indoctrination is not always positive if at all. People can end up hurt, bitter, and even renouncing their faith in Christ (as with some of the people I have come across). A community approach amongst all who form the body of Christ, like the diverse range of Christians who would post at this board only in real person, would be a better approach. Don't ask me to detail how it would actually work for I would be at a loss to explain. I believe in surrounding one's self with a diverse set of Christians, but just don't believe in organised churches.

[cslewislover]

I think we would be in general agreement with each others views. I know tongues is often used as confirmation of one's spirituality or Christianity by some churches. This does concern me, and I would strongly disagree as you do.

What disheartens me more is that such an attitude is not just limited to tongues, but also positions on creation, end times, and other sorts of beliefs. If you disagree with particular doctrinal beliefs of any church, especially what a pastor or elder believes, you are bound to receive double-takes and even treated as a lesser Christian if considered one at all.

It might surprise some to hear me say I am still to come to grips with organised churches. I am not sure an organisation approach is what Christ intended, nor whether it works. Certainly if you want to indoctrinate people with certain beliefs, but this is bound to be abused, cause hurt, and indoctrination is not always positive if at all. People can end up hurt, bitter, and even renouncing their faith in Christ (as with some of the people I have come across). A community approach amongst all who form the body of Christ, like the diverse range of Christians who would post at this board only in real person, would be a better approach. Don't ask me to detail how it would actually work for I would be at a loss to explain. I believe in surrounding one's self with a diverse set of Christians, but just don't believe in organised churches.

Yes, a book I'm reading says that as well, "God never intended a spiritual hierarchy to be established within the church." (Chuck Smith p17 in "What the World is Coming To: A Commentary on the Book of Revelation."). Anyway, I've been reading this board, and so much has been covered on the topic. My personal experience with people who claim they speak in tongues has been primarily of two different camps. One group claims that you need to speak in tongues to show that you're saved, which to me is unbiblical; also, they use verses in 1 Corinthians 12-14 in the opposite way as intended. So, this doesn't seem like Christ's church to me. The other group of people have had experience with tongues, either the kind spoken in church with a translator present, to edify those there, or the kind that comes during personal prayer time. This group believes in an orderly service as Paul discusses in the Corinthian verses. They don't say you need to speak in tongues in order to show you're saved, but they say you should pray for the gift just as we are to pray for all the gifts.

As for other issues that divide the body of Christ, I have encountered some, like having to read the King James version of the Bible only! And accepting the creation days as 24 hour days. But, the tongues issue seems to be the most widespread and strongest one. With ID and creationism coming more into the forefront in our culturer and the church, maybe that issue will now become more of a dividing point. I hope not.

[Gman]

I guess when I read about "tongues" or any other manifestation of the Holy Spirit, such as "healing", why does the gift only seem relevant only if it touches a supernatural realm? If I can learn to speak in the tongues of another nation, why isn't that not considered a gift of the Holy Spirit? The gift of healing as well.. Does that have to be a supernatural experience also? Does it have to appear suddenly right before our eyes before it is considered to be of God? What about our doctors of today that heal? Does not God guide them in some way also or is it only man-made?

I don't know, it seems that the gifts are probably in full swing right now... I know there are no "fireworks" that happen as it did on the day of Pentecost, but why does it always have to be a miraculous event to be considered of God? Isn't God in control right now?

Just my two cents...

[cslewislover]

I don't think all (or most) spiritual gifts will look like miracles when used. In my Disciple's Study Bible, it says that Spiritual Gifts are from the Holy Spirit and are for carrying out Christian service. They are not the same as having a natural talent. We're blessed by having the medical knowledge we have today, but using medicine or performing surgery to heal someone isn't the same as using a Spiritual Gift. That seems to be a concise way to put it from the info I have here . . .

[Gman]

I don't think all (or most) spiritual gifts will look like miracles when used. In my Disciple's Study Bible, it says that Spiritual Gifts are from the Holy Spirit and are for carrying out Christian service. They are not the same as having a natural talent. We're blessed by having the medical knowledge we have today, but using medicine or performing surgery to heal someone isn't the same as using a Spiritual Gift. That seems to be a concise way to put it from the info I have here . . .

Hey northern California vs southern California.... Ok, but wait a second here. I don't think that we can say that every "practice" of doctors have the seal of the Holy Spirit on them. But what about a doctor that prays before he/she goes into surgery or is trying to figure out some type of cure? Now we know the power of prayer right? Can not God guide them? I guess I would have to disagree with your statement. It also would be perhaps more of a gift if God actually showed me or gave me tools/knowledge of the subject beforehand. That way it becomes part of me just as God can be a part of me as well....

I just thought I'd add here the manifestation of "Knowledge." Is the manifestation of Knowledge something that poofs in my head or is it something that I can learn or discern by myself? With the help of God of course....

[cslewislover]

Thanks for posting so much--I'm really having fun trying out these smilies Anyway, hey, I didn't make up the stuff from my Disciples' Bible. I think what I said, or relayed, is right on. But there are all kinds of blessings from God as well, of course. Spiritual gifts are something that is discussed in the NT as a separate thing from God blessing people with talent, or rain, or hugs, or flowers So are you just making up the "Manifestation of Knowledge" or did you get that from somewhere?? Can God give me a "knowledge infestation," because that'd be great.

I think I've been on the computer too long today . . .

[Gman]

Thanks for posting so much--I'm really having fun trying out these smilies Anyway, hey, I didn't make up the stuff from my Disciples' Bible. I think what I said, or relayed, is right on. But there are all kinds of blessings from God as well, of course. Spiritual gifts are something that is discussed in the NT as a separate thing from God blessing people with talent, or rain, or hugs, or flowers So are you just making up the "Manifestation of Knowledge" or did you get that from somewhere?? Can God give me a "knowledge infestation," because that'd be great.

I think I've been on the computer too long today . . .

Hey I could use some also... And maybe some wisdom too... Nope, I'm not making it up. Here is the verse...

1 Corinthians 12:4-11

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

[cslewislover]

OK . . . ok. It's been quite a while since I thought or read about this. I have two references here, I'll check them out . . . unless He gives me a word of knowledge right now about it. I'll be back . . .

OK. This was fun. One of the references says: "What is the word of knowledge? It is information given to us supernaturally, knowledge of things that we could not know through natural acquisition of study. . . The Spirit will speak through you about a pertinent issue in someone's life and when it's over you say, 'Wow! Why did I say that?' It's a divine impartation of knowledge concerning a person or situation that could not come through natural thought processes. It's something that flashes into your mind which God prompts you to say." (Living Water: The Power of the Holy Spirit in Your Life, by Chuck Smith, pp. 109-110, Harvest House Pub.s, 1996). Yeah, wow, that's happened to me more than once, but one time in a very powerful way.

OK. Let's look at the next reference. Well, this reference only has a bit on the wisdom part of 1 Cor. 12:8. It's a really neat book, though, in case you want to check it out. It's The Holy Spirit: Works & Gifts, by Donald G. Bloesch (IVP Academic, 2000).

So I checked this out in Believer's Bible Commentary by William MacDonald (Nelson 1995), p. 1791. MacDonald says that at the time the bible was written, the word of knowledge was given to Paul and others and it makes up part of the NT. He says that it is also around today in the sense that my first reference gave.

[Gman]

OK . . . ok. It's been quite a while since I thought or read about this. I have two references here, I'll check them out . . . unless He gives me a word of knowledge right now about it. I'll be back . . .

OK. This was fun. One of the references says: "What is the word of knowledge? It is information given to us supernaturally, knowledge of things that we could not know through natural acquisition of study. . . The Spirit will speak through you about a pertinent issue in someone's life and when it's over you say, 'Wow! Why did I say that?' It's a divine impartation of knowledge concerning a person or situation that could not come through natural thought processes. It's something that flashes into your mind which God prompts you to say." (Living Water: The Power of the Holy Spirit in Your Life, by Chuck Smith, pp. 109-110, Harvest House Pub.s, 1996). Yeah, wow, that's happened to me more than once, but one time in a very powerful way.

OK. Let's look at the next reference.

Ok.. Now wait a sec... Like an idea right? I'm not saying that God couldn't work that way. And could you apply or write down this knowledge as did Paul? If so, could you apply it on your patient?

[cslewislover]

I would think that it might happen that way, I mean with a doctor. One could argue, perhaps, that some of the scientists in the past had words of knoweldge given them. I can't remember all my scientists. But there have been some examples of Christian researchers being given the information they sought while dreaming.

[Gman]

I would think that it might happen that way, I mean with a doctor. One could argue, perhaps, that some of the scientists in the past had words of knoweldge given them. I can't remember all my scientists. But there have been some examples of Christian researchers being given the information they sought while dreaming.

Perhaps... Again, I really don't know either. Just asking questions. Who is to say how God works unless the Holy Spirit confirms it?