A "faith" that works

[Jac3510]

Jesus didn't say anything about having an "intellectual" faith, Zoe. You are reading your theology into the text. He did say that the people who believe were saved in the immediately preceding verse.

Number next, let's just ge down to the bottom line question. You know you will believe because Christ will sustain your belief, but that is only true if you are only part of the elect (all the elect will continue to believe). But how do you know that you are part of the elect? Not because you believe, for you could be one of the deceived. Not because you have the inner witness of the Spirit, for others have been convinced that they have that witness and have likewise been deceived. Not by your works, for many have done great works and have fallen away, proving they never believed.

I'll grant, for the sake of argument, that if you are one of the elect, THEN you can know you will believe. How, then, do you know you are one of the elect?

[zoegirl]

Jac, you get to question and question but you have not addressed the verses I supplied.

I've said this before and I'll say it again

I believe in CHrist's redemption on the cross, that is assurance for my faith
I believe that Christ sustains His people, Christ is an ACTIVE part of my faith. "Lord, I believe, help me in my unbelief" Clearly, Christ is invovled in our hearts and minds when we enter into a relationship with Him. "Neither death...." WE know He holds onto us. Does that mean I dson't actively pray for my faith to grow ever stronger? Andolutely not.

You know you will believe because Christ will sustain your belief, but that is only true if you are only part of the elect (all the elect will continue to believe)

Jac, do you not believe that Christ changes us? That He is active IN our belief? I don't understand why you object to this idea. Whether or not you believe in election in the beginning of belief, I cna't imagine you objecvt to Christ being invovled in our growth in our faith. If you cannot pray with the assurance that CHrist will secure your faith and strengthen your faith, then it seems you are really diminishing CHrist's power.

YOu may be indignant that I say so, but ALl along all I've been saying, all B'W' has been saying, is that belieinv in CHrsti saves and that we enter into a relationship with Him and He strenthens us and changes us. Why that so objectionable is beyond me. Our assurance is Christ

AND all I ever hear from you concerns OUR ability and our role in a believers life but nary a mention of CHrist in this journey.

I doubt we will ever plumb the mysteries of the parable of the seeds, why some that start believing fall away...and if that were the only verse that speaks to the relatioship with CHrist, I would gladly concede the argument. But I see far, far more verses speaking of the hold that CHrist has on His believers, of sanctification, of dying to our selves BECAUSE of CHrist, to ever treat our assurance as so capricious, so FRAGILE. The connetion to the vine is not so easily broken.

But how do you know that you are part of the elect? Not because you believe, for you could be one of the deceived.

Jac, who's to say that someone who says they believe doesn't deceive themselves? Your theology on assurance seems to rest entirely on our psyche, on our own ability to believe. But our brains can do wonderful tricks on us. And there are plenty of people who "think" or "feel" they believe and yet really don't!! Our emotions are such a baggage in our belief. When the going gets tough, their "belief" goes right our the window. (OOps, today I have doubts, guess I'm not saved today! "Does God really care for me?" Whoops, guess I'm not saved, I didn't believe there for a minute. HOw can God take my baby from me? Uh-oh...) THey haevn't really believed. So how in the world do you have assurance in this theology of yours?!?!? How much doubt can creep in before we're lost? HOw much belief does it take? According to your theology, the man who had some "unbelief" had no assurance whasoever.

Because, let's face it, if we TRULY believe, then we should never ask these questions, should we? If we TRULY believe that Christ cares for us, then we shouldn't doubt His caer for us. We should n't feel insecure! If we believe that CHrist saves and loves us, then that should settle it. If we really believed that Christ saves, then there should be no doubting ever. Christ saves...Hallelujah! And all distress, worry, anguish is a sign that we HAVEN"T believed (or haven't truly committed)

And if we say we believe but haven't that committment, then aren't we really deceiving ourselves?

And then there are those that say they believe, but are deceived by there pride in their works, still building up treasures on earth by what we do or by thinking that we aren't really so bad.

I would rather rest my assurance on CHrist, that He will sustain me

YOu know, Puddleglum has one of my all-time favorite quotes

Suppose... suppose we have only dreamed and made up these things like sun, sky, stars, and moon, and Aslan himself. In that case, it seems to me that the made-up things are a good deal better than the real ones. And if this black pits of a kingdom is the best you can make, then it's a poor world. And we four can make a dream world to lick your real one hollow.
Green Lady: How dare you threaten me!
Puddleglum: As for me, I shall live like a Narnian even if there isn't any Narnia. So thank you very much for supper. We're going to leave your court at once and make our way across your great darkness to search for our land above!

THe Silver Chair

THe scriptures I read show a God and Savior, a living God and Savior, who changes the hearts and minds of the people He saves. A God who strengthens a believer's faith. who changes desires, who holds believers and cherishes them. He has changed mine.

I shall live and have faith in CHrist and die with that faith with His might and grace. And I continue to pray that my faith and belief grow ever stronger. "Lord, I believe, Help me in my unbelief."

If I am decieved, then the deception is certainly a weird deception, for it has changed me and my desires, has comforted me, has sustained me and strengtheneed my faith.

God bless,
Zg

[B. W.]

Jac, you get to question and question but you have not addressed the verses I supplied. I've said this before and I'll say it again

I believe in CHrist's redemption on the cross, that is assurance for my faith I believe that Christ sustains His people, Christ is an ACTIVE part of my faith. "Lord, I believe, help me in my unbelief" Clearly, Christ is invovled in our hearts and minds when we enter into a relationship with Him. "Neither death...." WE know He holds onto us. Does that mean I don't actively pray for my faith to grow ever stronger? Absolutely not.

You know you will believe because Christ will sustain your belief, but that is only true if you are only part of the elect (all the elect will continue to believe)

Jac, do you not believe that Christ changes us? That He is active IN our belief? I don't understand why you object to this idea. Whether or not you believe in election in the beginning of belief, I cna't imagine you objecvt to Christ being invovled in our growth in our faith. If you cannot pray with the assurance that CHrist will secure your faith and strengthen your faith, then it seems you are really diminishing CHrist's power.

YOu may be indignant that I say so, but ALl along all I've been saying, all B'W' has been saying, is that belieinv in CHrsti saves and that we enter into a relationship with Him and He strenthens us and changes us. Why that so objectionable is beyond me. Our assurance is Christ

AND all I ever hear from you concerns OUR ability and our role in a believers life but nary a mention of CHrist in this journey.

I doubt we will ever plumb the mysteries of the parable of the seeds, why some that start believing fall away...and if that were the only verse that speaks to the relatioship with CHrist, I would gladly concede the argument. But I see far, far more verses speaking of the hold that CHrist has on His believers, of sanctification, of dying to our selves BECAUSE of CHrist, to ever treat our assurance as so capricious, so FRAGILE. The connetion to the vine is not so easily broken.

But how do you know that you are part of the elect? Not because you believe, for you could be one of the deceived.

Jac, who's to say that someone who says they believe doesn't deceive themselves? Your theology on assurance seems to rest entirely on our psyche, on our own ability to believe. But our brains can do wonderful tricks on us. And there are plenty of people who "think" or "feel" they believe and yet really don't!! Our emotions are such a baggage in our belief. When the going gets tough, their "belief" goes right our the window. (OOps, today I have doubts, guess I'm not saved today! "Does God really care for me?" Whoops, guess I'm not saved, I didn't believe there for a minute. HOw can God take my baby from me? Uh-oh...) THey haevn't really believed. So how in the world do you have assurance in this theology of yours?!?!? How much doubt can creep in before we're lost? HOw much belief does it take? According to your theology, the man who had some "unbelief" had no assurance whasoever.

Because, let's face it, if we TRULY believe, then we should never ask these questions, should we? If we TRULY believe that Christ cares for us, then we shouldn't doubt His caer for us. We should n't feel insecure! If we believe that CHrist saves and loves us, then that should settle it. If we really believed that Christ saves, then there should be no doubting ever. Christ saves...Hallelujah! And all distress, worry, anguish is a sign that we HAVEN"T believed (or haven't truly committed)

And if we say we believe but haven't that committment, then aren't we really deceiving ourselves?

And then there are those that say they believe, but are deceived by there pride in their works, still building up treasures on earth by what we do or by thinking that we aren't really so bad.

I would rather rest my assurance on Christ, that He will sustain me...

...The scriptures I read show a God and Savior, a living God and Savior, who changes the hearts and minds of the people He saves. A God who strengthens a believer's faith. who changes desires, who holds believers and cherishes them. He has changed mine.

I shall live and have faith in Christ and die with that faith with His might and grace. And I continue to pray that my faith and belief grow ever stronger. "Lord, I believe, Help me in my unbelief."

If I am decieved, then the deception is certainly a weird deception, for it has changed me and my desires, has comforted me, has sustained me and strengtheneed my faith.

God bless, Zg

Amen Zoegirl !!

Right on!

You took the words right out of my mouth!
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[B. W.]

Concerning Luke 8:13

Luke 8:13, "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away."

LITV reads - And those on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a time, and in time of trial draw back.

It is important to note the context. These had no root. In other words there was no good soil here in this location. Their hearts were stony, not permitting any roots. In essence, their belief was built on false belief that was built upon the joy on the moment. They welcomed the word with joy and had nothing from the word take root in their heart. This is false belief built upon ones own belief in joy of the moment.

Their faith was in themselves, not the Lord as their hearts were stony and the word would not grow in their hearts to produce anything. When the wind and rains of life came, they had no foundation. Theirs was a false belief based upon themselves - their joy. It could not endure the storms of life as their faith was not on the Lord. The Lord uses storms to test us, to shape us, so we reflect more of Him in our lives and less of ourselves.

When these testing and fiery trials come, if a one's belief is in their own stony heart, the test proves they had false belief. If one's belief is in the Lord, it grows stronger. The bible does indeed teach that the Lord test the heart. He refines our faith to become more anchored in him. Tribulations do come. Through such trials and pruning we learn that He Will Not Let Us Go — this increases our faith in Him. It is best to place your faith in one who will never let you go than in one who will.

Proverbs 17:3, "The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the LORD tests hearts."

Psalms 11:4-5, "The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man. 5 The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence."

Jesus said: "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.” John 15:1-2

What I am hearing you say Jac, it that fruit is not necessary yet Jesus says otherwise.

Peter writes: 1 Peter 1:5-7, "...who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 in this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 so that the tested genuineness of your faith--more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire--may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. "

Psalms 66:8-12, "Bless our God, O peoples; let the sound of his praise be heard, 9 who has kept our soul among the living and has not let our feet slip. 10 For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried. 11 You brought us into the net; you laid a crushing burden on our backs; 12 you let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet you have brought us out to a place of abundance."

Many of the Psalms were written by one who felt abandon by God but he never really was ever abandon. In Ps 66:8,12 the writer states that the Lord will not let his peoples foot slip and brings us to a place of abundance as we go through such testing. Faith increases and produces fruit. This fruit bears evidence that we belong to Him.

Hebrews 12:2-5, "...looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him."

Tribulations and hard times come and go to everyone during this mortal life. Through these the Lord increases faith in His people. Others who are not His people get by and manage. Such trials also come about due to sin being removed from the true believer's heart. No matter what the storm, the Lord will see you through. You'll grow an increasing Faith in Him who is true and we learn that the Good Shepherd indeed has our best interest at heart (though at the moment of trial we may lose sight of this).

It is easy to hear with joy the word of God but if one's heart is stony, the word takes no root: his/her belief is a false belief built upon self joy. That is the message from Luke 8:13.

The believing that saves takes root and produces good fruit — not stagnation.

Luke 8:15, “As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.”
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Bible quotes not cited are from the ESV

[Jac3510]

Jac, you get to question and question but you have not addressed the verses I supplied.

Yes ma'am, I did. Rather explicitly and with full attention to detail. Allow me to simply quote myself:

• On 1 Thess 5, if you aren't careful, you'll end up with sinless perfectionism. After all, if our WHOLE BODY is kept BLAMELESS until Jesus comes, and that is based on His faithfulness, well, there's no option other that sinlessness. If I sin, I am no longer blamess, and therefore, since Jesus didn't do it, I must not be saved.
  
  The easies way to take this is that "He will do it" includes an understood contingency, as in John 15. So long as we do what Paul is saying in this chapter (this is found in a series of exhortations about righteous living) then Christ will sanctify us. Such is perfectly consistent with the rest of Scripture.
  
  Oh Phil 1, we have a mistranslation. Let me offer mine:
  
  • I thank my God upon every mention of you*; always in all my prayers concerning every one of you*, with joy I make my prayers on the basis of your* fellowship in the Gospel, from the first day you* heard it until now. I am confident that the One who began a good work by you* will bring it to maturity until the day of Jesus Christ.
  Notice how often he uses the word "all" . . . It's very inclusive and meant to set up a call to unity, which is the theme of the book. Also, notice that the "you" is always plural. Paul is speaking to the church as a whole, not to the individual members in it. Thus, when Paul says that God began a good work through them, he's talking about through them as a church. Finally, note that this work will continue until Jesus comes back. After that, His work will stop. Surely you don't think that God's work in our lives will cease when Jesus returns.
  
  More simply, the idea is that the good work began by the Philippian church is their financial support of Paul, enabling him to share the gospel message throughout the world. They will get a reward for investing in Paul, then, and, as Paul noted, we are STILL receiving the benefit of their work. This has nothing to do with individual salvation.

Now, I read carefully every single word you, B.W., and others write. If I have missed something of yours, please point me to it, because I am interested in interacting with your actual ideas, not having a meaningless debate where the goal is just to score points. If, then, I haven't, I would appreciate the same in return.

I've said this before and I'll say it again

I believe in CHrist's redemption on the cross, that is assurance for my faith
I believe that Christ sustains His people, Christ is an ACTIVE part of my faith. "Lord, I believe, help me in my unbelief" Clearly, Christ is invovled in our hearts and minds when we enter into a relationship with Him. "Neither death...." WE know He holds onto us. Does that mean I dson't actively pray for my faith to grow ever stronger? Andolutely not.

I'm well aware of this and don't contest any of it--well, I don't contest that you believe it, anyway.

Jac, do you not believe that Christ changes us? That He is active IN our belief? I don't understand why you object to this idea. Whether or not you believe in election in the beginning of belief, I cna't imagine you objecvt to Christ being invovled in our growth in our faith. If you cannot pray with the assurance that CHrist will secure your faith and strengthen your faith, then it seems you are really diminishing CHrist's power.

YOu may be indignant that I say so, but ALl along all I've been saying, all B'W' has been saying, is that belieinv in CHrsti saves and that we enter into a relationship with Him and He strenthens us and changes us. Why that so objectionable is beyond me. Our assurance is Christ

AND all I ever hear from you concerns OUR ability and our role in a believers life but nary a mention of CHrist in this journey.

I doubt we will ever plumb the mysteries of the parable of the seeds, why some that start believing fall away...and if that were the only verse that speaks to the relatioship with CHrist, I would gladly concede the argument. But I see far, far more verses speaking of the hold that CHrist has on His believers, of sanctification, of dying to our selves BECAUSE of CHrist, to ever treat our assurance as so capricious, so FRAGILE. The connetion to the vine is not so easily broken.

I believe, as I have stated repeatedly in both this thread and the thread that spawned it, that Christ will change those who abide in Him. I have further stated that to abide in Christ is not the same as to be saved, that a saved man can walk according to the flesh. I don't know why I would have to repeat such a basic belief that I've stated over and over again.

What I want to see from you--what you claim that you have--is Scripture that guarantees that Christ WILL NECESSARILY CHANGE ALL believers. I see Scripture that says Christ will change those who abide in Him. I see no Scripture, though, that says that all believers will abide. Just the opposite, I see a plethora of Scriptures that say that some will fall away and not abide:

• Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. (Luke 8:13-14, NIV)
  
  To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. (John 8:31)
  
  Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; (John 12:42)
  
  If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. (John 15:6)
  
  Simon himself believed and was baptized. (Acts 8:13 - you know the rest of that story)
  
  For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, (Rom 8:13)
  
  hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:5)
  
  Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. (1 Cor 9:24-27)
  
  For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. (1 Cor 11:29-31)
  
  I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. (Gal 1:6-7a)
  
  if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. (2 TIm 2:13)
  
  It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Heb 6:4-6)
  
  How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? (Heb 10:29)

We could go on and on and on and on. These are just off the top of my head. The bottom line: there as ample reason to believe that not all believers will persevere in faith and good works, contrary to reformed theology.

I reject the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints. I believe in the doctrine of eternal security.

Jac, who's to say that someone who says they believe doesn't deceive themselves? Your theology on assurance seems to rest entirely on our psyche, on our own ability to believe. But our brains can do wonderful tricks on us. And there are plenty of people who "think" or "feel" they believe and yet really don't!! Our emotions are such a baggage in our belief. When the going gets tough, their "belief" goes right our the window. (OOps, today I have doubts, guess I'm not saved today! "Does God really care for me?" Whoops, guess I'm not saved, I didn't believe there for a minute. HOw can God take my baby from me? Uh-oh...) THey haevn't really believed. So how in the world do you have assurance in this theology of yours?!?!? How much doubt can creep in before we're lost? HOw much belief does it take? According to your theology, the man who had some "unbelief" had no assurance whasoever.

Because, let's face it, if we TRULY believe, then we should never ask these questions, should we? If we TRULY believe that Christ cares for us, then we shouldn't doubt His caer for us. We should n't feel insecure! If we believe that CHrist saves and loves us, then that should settle it. If we really believed that Christ saves, then there should be no doubting ever. Christ saves...Hallelujah! And all distress, worry, anguish is a sign that we HAVEN"T believed (or haven't truly committed)

And if we say we believe but haven't that committment, then aren't we really deceiving ourselves?

And then there are those that say they believe, but are deceived by there pride in their works, still building up treasures on earth by what we do or by thinking that we aren't really so bad.

I would rather rest my assurance on CHrist, that He will sustain me

1) I don't believe, personally, that people can be deceived about what they believe. They can be factually wrong, but they can't be wrong that they believe it. They can lie to me and you, but not to themselves.

2) But according to your framework, you still aren't answering my question. I know that you believe that Christ will sustain the elect. I know that you think that you are one of the elect. But the Bible doesn't say, "Christ will sustain ZoeGir."

How do YOU know, zoe, that you, personally, are one of the elect (and will therefore persevere)? How do YOU know that YOU aren't one of the millions who were absolutely convinced they were saved but turned out to be reprobate? That's all I want to know from you. How do you know that you are one of the elect?

[zoegirl]

Jac, the idea of being deceived is that we are deceived, ie, we won't ever know. And I answered in myu previous post at the end of my previous post. If I am being decieved, then all I can continue to do is pray for God to continue to reveal His truth and open my eyes.

But that will be true for whether you consider Christ to be involved or not.

1) I don't believe, personally, that people can be deceived about what they believe. They can be factually wrong, but they can't be wrong that they believe it. They can lie to me and you, but not to themselves.

Well, I completely disagree here. THe human psyche is a strange thing. It can cause people to deceive themselves. There are plenty of people who considered themselved believers and attested to the faith who then realize they didn't truly belief, people who become CHristians even after going to church for 20 years. Moreover, there are plenty who consider themselves believers who then discover later on that they were wrong, when the going gets tough, they realize that they didn't believe before. Theirs is a token belief. They didn't believe, even though they thought they did, they were deceived. So the parable of the seed, as B-W's post points out, holds true. Their belief had no roots, no substance.

2) But according to your framework, you still aren't answering my question. I know that you believe that Christ will sustain the elect. I know that you think that you are one of the elect. But the Bible doesn't say, "Christ will sustain ZoeGir."

No, I say that Christ will sustain those that are NEW CREATIONS, those that He has redeemed, those that believe. The fact that I believe that these are the elect is really a separate issue, iow, you could still believe that GOd is fathful to those who believe without believeing in election. I believe...I am a new creation in Christ.....Christ will sustain me...Christ is faithful
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And I dont' see your problem of the problem of 1 Thess.

23May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Are we not blameless when we accept Christ's redeeming blood? When we believe Christ? I don't see at all that this requires perfectionism, rather speaking to a process.

Romans 6

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace

We will be UNITED with Him, we have been FREED. We are ALIVE in CHRIST. To borrow from God's creation....life GROWS.

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

We Belong to Him, released from sin, TO SERVE and BEAR FRUIT

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

1 Corinthians

8He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

If we are redeemed by CHrist, He changes us, we are not ours anymore. We are His temple. I happen to believe that Christ is more powerful than us. Christ will clean out our temple just as He did on earth. CAn we resist Him in this...yes, unfortunately, as your scripture concenring Paul's race shows, we can be disqualified from rewards.

1 Cor 15

9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

2 cor

21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

We become a new creation in Jesus Christ, NOT we are a new creation in CHrist but only if we abide... We are transformed into His likeness. We haev been set with His seal. We are His temple.

Your scripture passage

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. (1 Cor 9:24-27)

Does it say that he will be disqualified from salvation? No Does it say that he will not get a reward...Ok. why this is such a big deal?

But I have never said that we will be assured that we will get ALL rewards. Or that there could possibly be rewards we don't get. OR that we will be perfect and haev no problem acheiving these rewards!!

I havbe only said that in Christ we are a mew creation and that He is faithful to those He saves. To extend the race analogy, there are times in the race that we falter. DOes that mean that CHrist has let us go? Does that mean that we have ceased to have faith? No , it merely shows that we still carry the weaknesses and fall stll. Can those times be longer than they should? Sure. But CHrist can call us back and He is faithful.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. (Gal 1:6-7a)

This is tremendously vague and doesn't really show that those who were deserting were believers. I could say this to my students who are listening to stupid TV programs and using that as their worldview and this doesn't mean that a) they were believers or b) if they were believers they were completely rejecting the Gospel. Doesn't PAul say that we should take every thought captive and make it obedient to Jesus Christ. Are there not times when we fall for erroneus theology/pastors and yet still hold our faith? Was it not Christ who, through Paul, called them back to Him?! Was He not faithful to them in their growth?



I will keep posting more verses....Tired and weary from the week and blissfully looking forward to sleep. How pathetic is that!! I used to look forward to Friday nights and plan to go somehwere. Now I get excited about sleep!! My apologies if something I said didn't make sense...I havelooked over it, but I wouldn't trust that right now!

I

[FFC]

Because, let's face it, if we TRULY believe, then we should never ask these questions, should we? If we TRULY believe that Christ cares for us, then we shouldn't doubt His caer for us. We should n't feel insecure! If we believe that CHrist saves and loves us, then that should settle it. If we really believed that Christ saves, then there should be no doubting ever. Christ saves...Hallelujah! And all distress, worry, anguish is a sign that we HAVEN"T believed (or haven't truly committed)

Hi Zoe! I know what you are saying here, but Never is a pretty strong word. I know that I am a Christian, but there are times when I fall into a repeated pattern of sin and for a moment have to ask myself if I am really a Christian. Did I really believe the right thing? Were my motives right? All I can really do at that time is go to God's word and re-examine what He promises. Our hearts are fickle and not to be trusted. Only God's word can be trusted. Know what I mean?

[B. W.]

Because, let's face it, if we TRULY believe, then we should never ask these questions, should we? If we TRULY believe that Christ cares for us, then we shouldn't doubt His caer for us. We should n't feel insecure! If we believe that CHrist saves and loves us, then that should settle it. If we really believed that Christ saves, then there should be no doubting ever. Christ saves...Hallelujah! And all distress, worry, anguish is a sign that we HAVEN"T believed (or haven't truly committed)...

Hi FCC,

Both Jac and I do agree on something you so correctly pointed out - if we truly believe we could not doubt his care or salvation because this truth is declared from the bible. Thank you for making this clear!

Next, We all have our battles with sin and great trials may afflict us but the bible remains true and we, amazingly return to it because we really believe. The bible settles it, as you stated. We believe his word and not our circumstances.

Where Jac and I differ is on the fruit that Christ produces in a true believer's life.

The bible does indeed teach that there will be fruit. This fruit may not be noticeable by those around us, but a true believer does and will produce good fruit. for example, one evidence of good fruit is that they do return to the word after some struggles they may undergo, as God wills, that reveal an area in ones life that needs change. They do return and their faith is strengthen. They do not walk away. Those that do, never had saving faith but rather faith in something else other than God's word.

Jac stated, as I have understood him to say, is that there is no need for this fruit at all to prove one is a believer or not. That is the difference btwn us as I understand it to be.

This maybe true for a new convert but as one grows in the Lord, they have the Holy Spirit within them and because of this fact — there will be fruit (Is God so weak that he cannot work within us to do his good works, whatever and whatever form they do consist of?) It may not be discernable by doing 'good works' compared to those without Christ but it is made discernable because one 'lives' knowing that Christ is in us doing the works that God prepared beforehand so that we walk according his will (summed up by loving God and loving our fellow neighbors).
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[zoegirl]

Because, let's face it, if we TRULY believe, then we should never ask these questions, should we? If we TRULY believe that Christ cares for us, then we shouldn't doubt His caer for us. We should n't feel insecure! If we believe that CHrist saves and loves us, then that should settle it. If we really believed that Christ saves, then there should be no doubting ever. Christ saves...Hallelujah! And all distress, worry, anguish is a sign that we HAVEN"T believed (or haven't truly committed)

Hi Zoe! I know what you are saying here, but Never is a pretty strong word. I know that I am a Christian, but there are times when I fall into a repeated pattern of sin and for a moment have to ask myself if I am really a Christian. Did I really believe the right thing? Were my motives right? All I can really do at that time is go to God's word and re-examine what He promises. Our hearts are fickle and not to be trusted. Only God's word can be trusted. Know what I mean?

FFC. I'm not agreeing with my statemetn, mine was an exagerration to show that belief is not always rock solid and therefore is not as cut-and-dried as presented.

As we are sanctified, we should grow more and more sold in our faith, but, yes, there are times we waver,....I absolutely agree with you.

[FFC]

I thought that was where you were going but I wasn't sure...maybe I should have read the whole thread.

BTW I do think it is possible for Christians to backslide for extended periods of time where they bear no fruit at all except bad fruit and still be saved. Do I speak from experience? ...

[B. W.]

I thought that was where you were going but I wasn't sure...maybe I should have read the whole thread.

BTW I do think it is possible for Christians to backslide for extended periods of time where they bear no fruit at all except bad fruit and still be saved. Do I speak from experience? ...

A true believer always returns to the Lord. Through such experience, God deals with the issue of sin. Sometimes it boils to the surface so person can see what it is doing to them and from there it is dealt with. This can take time as it is a process.

Sometimes struggles with a particular sin will take years. A person can sway back and forth between God, their Christianity, and their plaguing sin but in the end, they always return to the Lord. At sometime in their future, they'll return to the Lord and be set free.

Often, when a a person is going through this, some type of self-works-deal-making-with-God is going on, which is what can keep a person a slave to their backsliding sin. I have seen and heard from people that when this ends, a person is confronted by the Love of God and they are then set free, indeed, and healed from their baclslidding ways

Please read John 21:2-20 for what I mean by being confronted by the Love of God.
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[FFC]

I thought that was where you were going but I wasn't sure...maybe I should have read the whole thread.

BTW I do think it is possible for Christians to backslide for extended periods of time where they bear no fruit at all except bad fruit and still be saved. Do I speak from experience? ...

A true believer always returns to the Lord. Through such experience, God deals with the issue of sin. Sometimes it boils to the surface so person can see what it is doing to them and from there it is dealt with. This can take time as it is a process.

Sometimes struggles with a particular sin will take years. A person can sway back and forth between God, their Christianity, and their plaguing sin but in the end, they always return to the Lord. At sometime in their future, they'll return to the Lord and be set free.

Often, when a a person is going through this, some type of self-works-deal-making-with-God is going on, which is what can keep a person a slave to their backsliding sin. I have seen and heard from people that when this ends, a person is confronted by the Love of God and they are then set free, indeed, and healed from their baclslidding ways

Please read John 21:2-20 for what I mean by being confronted by the Love of God.
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So that begs the question as to whether "fruit" is actually a reliable indicater of a persons status with God, or a general indicater. Anyone who examined the life of Samson or the prodigal son(in his backslidden state) would surely conclude this person was not a child of God but as we read the scriptures we see that they are. I believe a person who is walking in the Spirit will bear fruit, but none of us are walking in the spirit all of the time.

Just my thoughts

[zoegirl]

I thought that was where you were going but I wasn't sure...maybe I should have read the whole thread.

BTW I do think it is possible for Christians to backslide for extended periods of time where they bear no fruit at all except bad fruit and still be saved. Do I speak from experience? ...

Oh sure, but I have no doubt that Christ effects changes so that He calls you back .

[Byblos]

Anyone who examined the life of Samson or the prodigal son(in his backslidden state) would surely conclude this person was not a child of God but as we read the scriptures we see that they are. I believe a person who is walking in the Spirit will bear fruit, but none of us are walking in the spirit all of the time.

Just my thoughts

We see that he (the prodigal son) was not a child of God (so long as he was away). He became a child of God again after repentance (when he came back). He was dead and became alive again. If anything, the parable of the prodigal son teaches repentance and perseverance, not eternal security. How else do you read it?

[FFC]

Anyone who examined the life of Samson or the prodigal son(in his backslidden state) would surely conclude this person was not a child of God but as we read the scriptures we see that they are. I believe a person who is walking in the Spirit will bear fruit, but none of us are walking in the spirit all of the time.

Just my thoughts

We see that he (the prodigal son) was not a child of God (so long as he was away). He became a child of God again after repentance (when he came back). He was dead and became alive again. If anything, the parable of the prodigal son teaches repentance and perseverance, not eternal security. How else do you read it?

Was he a child of God when he was living at home?