Evidence for God from Science

Soulbrothernumber7 wrote:After the Fall of Adam and Eve, God cursed the ground because of it. (Genesis 3:17)

I've been smoking pot just about everday for the past 2 years.... with a total of maybe 4 months within those 2 years without it. That was a great run. I regret ever starting it up again and hope to quit soon. I believe when God cursed the ground, the curse involved everything that grows out of the ground. This includes cannabis, along with many other harmful plants. However, for medicinal purposes marijuana can help a lot of people (along with many other potentially harmful drugs), and I support that.

Question: why do you use it?

The reason I ask, is that I was teaching at a church two weeks ago and a man came forward to confess sins and openly asked, if taking a couple drinks once in awhile was okay. He wasn't a drunk. He went on and on to justify having a beer once in a while.

The bible does not forbid drinking but it does warn of abusing it as it can drag a person away and make a mockery of them. I saw in this person that he was only making excuses to drink and would continue to do so. All I could do was warn him that a few beers may someday take him away to do something he never would ever think of doing. That choice was up to him. If someone thinks they can handle drinking then I worry about them.

Christians that I do know that actually have a beer or a glass of wine once in a while have a healthy respect for alcohol and would never say they can handle it. Once a person says they can handle it — well — pride comes before the fall. I personally no longer drink and choose not too. Others choose to do so. I do not mind not do I judge them.

What I care about is this: “Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.” Proverbs 20:1 — ESV

The same would go for pot as well. When a person begins justifying either, then I suggest one to examine themselves to see if they are being led astray. That answer is between them and the Lord.

One last thing:

1 Co 6:19 tells us we, as Christians, are the temple of God. Verse 11 tells us that those that practice unrighteousness will not inherit the Kingdom of God. So many Christian's are not experiencing the blessings of the Lord nor his promises. Why?

Think of it like this so you can understand why: If you own your home — it is your house. Jesus purchased your house for you. God made us His Temple to dwell in. Yet, what do so many Christians do? After becoming born again, they have illegal occupants living in their house. In fact, many Christians pay these occupants to live their homes!

Some of the occupants are easy to identify such as alcoholism, addictions, love of power, wrath, pornography, etc. Others are not so recognizable such as fear of failure, condemnation, anger, bitterness, lust, religious superiority, rejection, etc and etc. With such occupants - how can we inherit the Kingdom of God and the blessings?

These occupants whisper to us in alluring self justify ways. They are slave drivers. What is being robbed from you? What is really deep down driving you? What is occupying all your energy of thought and time? These are stealing the Kingdom of God from you. Jesus said that who he sets free is free indeed. Have you found that freedom? Have you obeyed the Lord what he spoke in John 8:11?

(1 Co 6:11, 19-20) We are to be living a life of cleansing being set apart for the Lord's work. In other words — we are to get rid of these illegal occupants dwelling within us. Each of us are the temple of God purchased by a price.

He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. Has anyone told you - you can be free from these occupants? That you no-longer have to put up with them? Jesus said whom he sets free will be free indeed? Why do we put up having these dirty occupants live in God's house robbing us of the promises of God and the freedom Christ granted?

Reader, you do not have to be subjected to these occupants any longer. Realize who is in you. Ask your self, “why am I not experiencing all that God's word promises.” Recognize what is occupying you and confess it to the Lord and others. Then repent — turn away from it. You can do it.

This is the life of repentance we all must walk. If not, then we will miss the power of the Kingdom of God that is to be within us because we continue to listen to a bunch of nitpicking illegal occupants who lost their right to control us all who call on the name of the Lord. You can tell what occupies to leave.

I pray that members of the church would come into understand of what it means to uphold and strengthen the weak (Gal 61-3, Romans 12:1-21). Members are to pray for one another and help each other cleanse our house of what occupies us and robs us from experiencing the Kingdom of God in its fullness. Ponder this a bit more.

Remember - He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world and never forget that your body is the Temple of the Lord indwelt by the Holy Spirit. So - What are you doing with occupants who only give an illusion of power over you when in fact they have none!

Parting Thought

Realize that we need each other to help each other overcome and grow strong in the Lord. There are some things like illness and depression that have biological conditions/causes. God did provide doctors and medicines for these kind of issues. Amen.

But those things that drive a person to live a life of lust, life of abuse, life of addictions, life of bitterness, anger, fear of loss, etc and etc these do rob a Christian from the life God promises in his word. These occupants of the temple must be cleansed by the cords of grace (1 John 1:9) till their residue no longer afflicts ones soul.

Gal 6:1-2, "Brothers (sisters), if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. -" ESV

Sorry for the mini sermon — can't help myself sometimes…
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I've been smoking pot since before I became a born-again christian. I am in the process of quitting, however, and I hope to be done blazing up for good.

Good post B.W. So in essence you are saying we shouldn't take weed etc and drink alcohol? Or that we should know our limits?
But then why should using weed make necessarily a sin and something one cannot inherit God's Kingdom with? SO for example, if someone is a regular smoker does it mean he has to quit before he can enter heaven? Yes it is not a good idea to start, but it's addictive. The biggest mistake is to start; but if one has started already should he force himself to stop if it's so hard?

The handling of alcohol... hm. Why should the use of word "handling" mean pride and subsequently mean he won't handle it? i mean, i never gotten drunk - i do drink occasionally. Can't that be considered "handling" of it? For me handling means taking control of what we do... If one has control than that's a good thing. Maybe u referred to some different usage of the word... And also, why pride? It could be HS guiding us and making sure we know what's right.

madscientist wrote:Good post B.W. So in essence you are saying we shouldn't take weed etc and drink alcohol? Or that we should know our limits?

But then why should using weed make necessarily a sin and something one cannot inherit God's Kingdom with? SO for example, if someone is a regular smoker does it mean he has to quit before he can enter heaven? Yes it is not a good idea to start, but it's addictive. The biggest mistake is to start; but if one has started already should he force himself to stop if it's so hard?

The handling of alcohol... hm. Why should the use of word "handling" mean pride and subsequently mean he won't handle it? i mean, i never gotten drunk - i do drink occasionally. Can't that be considered "handling" of it? For me handling means taking control of what we do... If one has control than that's a good thing. Maybe u referred to some different usage of the word... And also, why pride? It could be HS guiding us and making sure we know what's right.

What I was attempting to say is this:

People need to check and see if these actions are robbing themselves of the life and blessings of God. What affect does drinking alcohol / smoking pot have on those around a person? How much of a habit is it?

True story: After becoming a new Christian (let's call him Stan) Stan still loved to drink heavily. One day, going to the liquor store with enough money to purchase his favorite beverage, a woman neighbor with tears in her eyes saw him and asked he could loan her some money for bus fare for her and her two small children so she could take he kids to the Doctors. He thought for a moment and told her he had not the money and proceeded on his way to the liquor store.

Stan, after returning home that night, had the worst buzz of his life. The Lord was showing him something about himself. He became convicted and realized what his drinking was costing him and others. He eventually quit, but it was a struggle. This incident helped him to quit. The woman by the way did make it to the doctors, late.

Alcohol or Pot consumption will not keep you out of heaven, you may get there faster if one continues. A person has to deal with these issues between themselves and the Lord. Like I said, I do not condemn any Christian who drinks or smokes. All I can ask is for those that do check themselves and see if what they are doing is robbing blessings, prayer life, intimacy with God and others, etc and etc - leading them astray. For the Christian, this matter is a matter of personal conscience between oneself and the Lord.

God's Blessing be upon you all
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I know I am repeating myself here, but they call it dope for a reason. It affects your reasoning, your judgement, and your clarity of mind.

COnsidering that we are supposed to "love the LOrd with all of your mind..." and that we are to "take captive every thought and make it obedient to CHrist Jesus" it seems strange that we would quibble (great word....quibble).

I remeber clearly seeing my dad when growing up only having 1 glass of wine or 1 glass of beer. He always refused a second glass when the waiter or waitress would ask if he wanted to have another glass. I didn't realize how much I had absorbed that element of control until I was with a group of co-workers who went out after friday's work and I saw two of them get a seocnd glass of beer . Now, I am not saying that this was sinful or bad but I just remember thiniing to myself "whoa, why get another one?!"

And it hit me that I would only get one glass as well. As soon as it starts affecting you, we have essentially lost a bit of control. We cannot govern ourselves as well as we should.

Yeah - but we should know our limits shouldnt ve? Like everything - do with moderation. Drinking too. Yes; if we have that 1 glass and stop that's good but if then one KNOWS the next will have bad effects and doesn't that's where trouble starts. Sure, many of us have been drunk at least ONCE; but also many have said OK THAT'S IT! For example at some graduation thing or soemthin in school but that's it. I only been tipsy and aware of what I was doing - personally I had just blurred vision and couldn't focus and that was bad already i didnt like the feeling! SOme say its fun being drunk - but for me it's not fun being even tipsy so then...? I was however totally aware of everything, and felt that my moral standards have been actually higher when sober - i thought i was afraid i would do something silly so i was extra careful when crossing a road too so yes, the awareness of it and my overreactions maybe made me feel i was more in control... hence had no more - and that was to counteract the cold on new years 09
I do drink but it's really little... i dont like pubs; its big here in scotland - i get a glass of water or just dont go at all. I prefer having my big bottle of vodka or rum and slowly slowly sip it - where a bottle could last for months! In addition it's lent (btw do non-catholics do that?) so i gave drinkin alcohol for pleasure up for the 40 days!
Never wanna do pot. never done it. tho i often feel depressed and lethargic and apathic... tho would pot seem a good idea!? I doubt it, but if anyone has suggestions i'm open

B.W., That is good Stan made it as he did... it's sad others had to pay for it - did the children end up OK even tho they came late?? Didnt sound so from your post... well, if one is alcoholic that's bad, but if we know our limits then we shouldnt have problems with it - and if it doesnt harm our relationship with God...
Could there be cases when it actually makes our relaitonship with God better (such as the case of NIK whom it helped when he had weed)? And what if - big if - to some people, some sinful things may improve relationship with God - or cant this happen? For example, they get drunk or high or do something not so good but it makes em feel good so they can perceive God better? Me for example, whenever i feel happy (this aint often! ) i feel God's closer to me. Now, if one achieves this happy state by drugs or doing what he shouldnt do then - can this thing bring him closer? Another example, if i played a violent comp game which i really liked - and that made me feel happy and make me release dopamine (responsible for motivation in life - it's brain chem...) and i felt more with God then and more thankful to Him - would that be ok? I also felt that nonreligious music (even some death metal) sometimes would make me feel sort of good and then i'd feel at peace...

Christianity is not about feeling good all the time, it is not about attempting to change your emotions in order to achieve a high. I would say that if you feel God when you are high you are actually under the effect of a chemical that is giving you that illusion or that you are being deceived by the enemy. I feel God close when I am happy, but I have also felt him close when I have been sad, despairing, tired, sick, and just plain OK!

Sin cannot bring us closer to God, in fact it usually makes me feel a separation from God. If sin made us close to God then the whole world would be feeling God's presence all the time since we are surrounded by sin! God detests sin, so how can the act of sinning bring you closer to him? It does not make sense.

The amazing thing is that Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit and being filled with the spirit is immeasurably better than being drunk, stoned, high etc. (I should know!) and its free! The more I got drunk or stoned, the more I wanted to get drunk or stoned and over time I got more and more sinful and had to use more and more drugs and alcohol to feel better, which caused me to become more and more sinful etc. Whereas the more I get filled with the Holy Spirit the less I desire those things and the more I desire the things of the God and the more truly happy, joyous and free I feel. Try it - it works!

Amen Keefy

Long term effects of prolonged Marijuana use has negative effects on one's health. So does alcohol. I someone wants to use these — so be it as that is there personal choice.

Remember as a Christian, you are God's temple. Maybe marijuana is a test, to see if one loves God more than marijuana?

Maybe we should rephrase this thread to discuss — How does being stoned reflect Christ likeness?

John writes in 1 John for Christians 'to walk as Christ walked.' So what effect does a stoned out Christian have on the cause of Christ? Would such living example, in the eyes of the world, be judged as hypocrisy or a more loving model of Christ likeness?
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So looks like weed and alcohol are sinful because they're harmful? or is it more their effects such as hallucinations? somewhere in the Bible says we shudnt consume stuff that makes us hallucinate etc. So, that would mean taking weed for "recreational" purposes is sinful but taking it for improving health is OK? With alcohol, thats how it is i presume - taking small amounts not to make us drunk is OK, but using alcohol to feel stoned and out - that isn't sinless any nore i presume...

Now, some atheists' argument for sex is "it's healthy so you should do it even outside marriage and not just for procreation". then they gave me all the arguments it's good for blood pressure, relief, feeling good etc and it'seven HEALTHY. Then, if sport is healthy we are to do it, if eating fruits and vegetables is healthy we are to do it. But then how come sex is healthy and "forbidden" at the same time? Their argument was "as you said everything with moderation, then also sex with moderation (that implying even outside marriage)" but ofcourse that's unbiblical. Then where does one draw the line? Could one say that getting drunk occasionally such as on newyears or smoking occasionally or taking weed occasionally is bad? But if drinking without getting drunk is OK, then how come sex that is not to be outside marriage (not even occasionally) is healthy? If it werent, then we would limit it to procreation. But as it is, atheists use this to say to do it with moderation, similarly as other things. I believe some things are good with moderation such as drinking but some are not at all such as watching porn or murder... but again the latter is unhealthy for the victim!

So, what then makes something wrong and unacceptable? A mere difference whether it's healthy or not?

madscientist wrote:...So, what then makes something wrong and unacceptable? A mere difference whether it's healthy or not?

That is an excellent question. Human beings can and do create our own morality. I think atheist Christopher Hitcheson makes that point very well. However he misses the point on morality of what make right and wrong — wrong or right. Without a measuring rod of standards sent to us by God, we would continue to create our own morals based on the whims of relativistic morality. In other words it is up to the individual to decide if anything is wrong or not.

When it is up to individuals to design morality to ones of standards then God's governance is usurped. This is called rebellion against God. Humanity's first parents fell into this trap by wanting to be like God. It continues to spread throughout all humanity ever since. Christopher Hitcheson, for example, does not know what he is doing or really saying when he uses the morality design argument (as I call it) to bash religions with.

Yes, human beings do indeed create our own brands of Morality. God shown forth to the nation of Israel what his standards of Morality should be for humanity and we all fall short of it. Praise the Lord for his Son Jesus Christ and the work on the cross and sending forth the Holy Spirit into our hearts!

If you look close at morality arguments of any kind, look for the usurping and overthrowing of God's governance with the ever changing relativistic morality of humanity. Is smoking pot of boozing it up morally wrong? Fact is over use of these substances can lead to moral wrongs after the honey moon use period ends. Jails are filled with those who had done stupid acts while under the influence.

Measure this with the standard of morality God shown us: Love our neighbor as we love ourselves. We may love to indulge in such activities but what effect does our actions have on our neighbors in the now or future? So do we love ourselves more and justify indulgence at our neighbor's expense? Do we love our indulgence more than we love God? How does whatever argument we use stand up to that set of moral absolutes sent to us by God?
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Thats true, that we shouldnt decide our morals. But there still remains this issue of what issues are in the gray area. because, the Bible does not mention everything which is and isnt a sin - it doesnt contain an exhaustive list of millions of things whihc are sins. one could judge, but lets say a drug were found to be hallucinogenic but harmless? Let's take the discoverer of LSD who i believe lived to be over 100 and he did take the drug! shows it didnt destroy him - did it? Then, i had a conversation with a catholic - he was just wondering - that if masturbation is healthy and doctors encourage to do it, then why religion forbids it. that people could then become selfish and unable to have a relationship, said some christian SK magazine. other friend said that. of course Bible says somewhere that it is a sin. But it is NOT harmful, and yet is a sin. So then, something being good doesnt mean we should do it, and if something is a sin doesnt necessarily mean it's bad for us physically or mentally then? yes it could end up like this if one does it excessively such as alcohol or common stuff. now if one does it once a month or so? still a sin, but if he ends up OK? Now maybe masturbation/sex could help people with some health problems (obesity? depression? insomnia? i been sleepless and someone suggested sex to me - well u can imagine my answer! but maybe had i done it would have gotten better who knows - just guessing ) but the person knowing it would help shouldnt do it? that must be frustrating. if it were harmful such as drugs or something which harms others... but then what if one uses sex for "medical purposes" (sounds weird ) does it diminish the sinfulness of it? we know circumstances can diminish - heard that e.g. if someone has to prostitute himself to survive then the level of sin can decrease to the extent it's almost no sinful or not at all - if i remember well. so shows situatuion plays a role.
We are to take care of our health; maybe some sinful things would help but we cannot use them whereas atheists are fine with it. How come then sinful things can be "good" in some ways? If they are then does it become not sinful? For example let's imagine sometimes we need to be harsh with someone in order to prevent bad to happen - such as we can defend ourselves and even kill if it is to protect. If it is not sin to kill to save the innocent if it's needed then can other normally sinful things also end up not sinful if situation permits?

I agree with God and Science's articles on marijuana. I would never knowingly take it.

As i see it.... The key to self-liberation is abstinence from the destructive escapism of intoxication.

Straight Edge for Life, I don't drink, don't smoke, don't [love](around), at least i can [love] think.

You'll never be true of spirit, mind, body, soul, if you do something that makes you not you and to say that a substance makes you you, your just lying.

Dear Nik
I have just started on my journey with Jesus; it has been an amazing and testing 3 months.
For the last ten years of my life I have smoked herb, about six of those years was spent stoned. I mean 10 and up joints a day. But this is not about me...I just told you that so you could see the white flag waving; as the thread has taken a “wrong turn”.
If I may be so bold, I’m going to mix in my opinion with suggestions. My facts might even be off but afford me the courtesy...

Read The epistle of James. He was an amazing person. Somewhere I read that his knees were like leather, like that of a camel because of the amount of time he spent on his knees talking to GOD. James was Jesus’ brother and by no means was on board with the His teachings. GOD does work in mysterious ways because after Our Lords resurrection, Jesus met privately with James (1 Corinthians 15:7). After that James became a man of prayer and he had a personal relationship that lead him to becoming such an amazing example of “Christian practical life” that we can still read the words, God inspired him to write.

So what does this have to do with you?
There are three ideas I would like to clarify, brighten or have you contemplate on a spark up.
1. Read the epistle of James again and again and again.
In James, is a really practical approach to life! I think many of the ideas he explores will have much relevance to your own spoken and written words, as well as your actions.
2. Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15:7 showed us He is very much a personal creator/saviour.
Somewhere in The Bible he even says we are friends!!!! Now to me that is amazing.
3. Someone famous said something like “Pray and I talk to God; and when I read His word, He talks to me.”
So... Nik here is my opinion...
• You are feeling the need to ask this type of question about one of your daily habits.
Are you directing your question in the right direction?
• You are making a statement that puts a thing of this world before your creator and saviour.
Is that any better than idolizing an alcohol brand by putting it on ones prised possessions?
• You have been told not to consume it.
‘Who’ has told you?

Nik we can talk about the different elements of all argument, for the rest of existence, but try not to get caught out by focusing on the wrong elements here. We need to immerse ourselves in the Word of GOD and become His friends. Be open and willing to let the Holy Spirit guide us, so that which will improve our relationship with Jesus may come into the light, as I believe He has guided you to assess your situation.
Glory be to God
May He instil in us absolute surrender to His will.
May we glorify His name in all things we do.
With my much Love
God bless
P.S. Look up a book (Christ and the School of prayer by A. Murry) It is in the public domain so it is free.