What does god prove?

[Gman]

I THINK you misunderstood the basic assumption. That is not that God sins but that God CREATED sin. God also created the one who 'seeks whom he might devour'. So my fundamental questions was and still is - Why? God created the universe with the full and complete knowledge of everything that would happen, every decision that would be made and every sin that would be committed. So what is the purpose?

Try again if you wish.

Doug.

Purpose of Evil?

Most atheists assume that a personal God would only create a universe that is both good morally and perfect physically. However, according to Christianity, the purpose of the universe is not to be morally or physically perfect, but to provide a place where spiritual creatures can choose to love or reject God - to live with Him forever in a new, perfect universe, or reject Him and live apart from Him for eternity. It would not be possible to make this choice in a universe in which all moral choices are restricted to only good choices. One cannot choose between good and bad if bad did not exist. It's an amazing simple logical principle. -Rich

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... ering.html

Natural evil?

Atheists claim that if God existed that He would not design a world that contains "natural evil." Accordingly, killer hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, and tsunamis represent the workings of an indifferent, indiscriminately cruel world. What atheists fail to realize is that all the "bad" things of this world are absolutely required for life to exist at all. In fact, most of this "evil" provides us with much more pleasure than pain. -Rich

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... icity.html

[FFC]

I THINK you misunderstood the basic assumption. That is not that God sins but that God CREATED sin.

I wouldn't say God created sin, because Hebrews tells us He is not the author of sin, He did however seem to create the chain of events by which sin entered the world. The question then is why? Could it be possible that God in His perfect plan allowed the possibility, or even the probability of sin in order to further his Holy and righteous agenda.

It all puzzles me as well. I'm hoping one day to be let in on the mystery. In the mean time I have to believe that God is good and life is worth living whether it feels like it sometimes or not.

Good question!

FFC

[B. W.]

THINK you misunderstood the basic assumption. That is not that God sins but that God CREATED sin. God also created the one who 'seeks whom he might devour'. So my fundamental questions was and still is - Why? God created the universe with the full and complete knowledge of everything that would happen, every decision that would be made and every sin that would be committed. So what is the purpose?

Try again if you wish.,,Doug.

Note God did not create sin - it was found in...

Eze 28:15, "You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you." ESV

Kiel and Delitzsch Commentary:

In Eze 28:15, the comparison of the prince of Tyre to Adam in Paradise is brought out still more prominently. As Adam was created sinless, so was the prince of Tyre innocent in his conduct in the day of his creation, but only until perverseness was found in him.

What you are asking is why did God create creatures foreknowing they would fall?

You need to look at who the Lord is as the bible reveals him to be...not as you think he ought to be.

How can all powerful really be all powerful if it cannot work through all things to achieve a goal?

This goal is found in the closing chapters of Revelations...

Question: How do you purify Gold, Silver?

People may not like it but God created things to reveal who he is and what He is like - to glorify himself as being true to himself - perfect and without fault in all his ways.

So again how can God be all powerful if God cannot work through all things to achieve a goal?

What you seem to be suggesting is that God is guilty of creating beings who would become evil. Yet, if God denied them that ability how could God really be all powerful? How could he be truly just to who he created and himself if he denied personal responsibility?

What, an all powerful God so weak that he needs to deny personal responsibility to the creature because He cannot work through all things? Who are you, oh man, to accuse God of wrong doing and being unjust?

How could God reach his final goal all powerfully unless he first removes the dross, with absolute justice, equity, righteousness, first to himself and to others - to reach perfection?

People might need to awake to the fact that we are living in that process, right now. Just as a one refines pure metal — God chose to use the same method but on a grander scale.

I suggest you read some of C. S. Lewis's works on this subject for more details.

Next, what is the median average life span of a human being? It is around 70 years + or — 20 years.

Think of generations after generations of people coming and going throughout time. We only view our world through our own generational eyes. Doing so, we fail to grasp how patient God is in repeating himself over and over again to each new generation the message of the cross and his wondrous ways.

God proves he is patient and slow to anger but there will come a time when God tires of those that continually abuse his love and patient slowness. The dross is removed, discarded, banished from God forever. Those whom he purifies through the eternal message of the Cross by His own hand (Holy Spirit) will see Him and understand the purposes of God and with the angels in heaven join in a sing:

“Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure (will) they are and were created.” Rev 4:11 KJV

God indeed proves himself a master craftsman, all wise, all powerful, all knowing, all his ways are justice, he does no wrong, He has no iniquity, never acts wickedly, repays according to ones ways (he is fair), He will never pervert justice, His gifts are irrevocable, He is true to his word, He does not lie, nor steal, He is faithful, He is perfect in all his ways.

“Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure (will) they are and were created.” Rev 4:11 KJV

Jer 17:10, "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."

Psa 7:9, "Oh, let the evil of the wicked come to an end, and may you establish the righteous-- you who test the minds and hearts, O righteous God!"

Psa 11:4, "The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man."

Ecc 3:17-18, “I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts…”

Ecc 3:21, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? “

Ecc 3:22 “... Who can bring him to see what will be after him?”

“Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

How do you purify Gold, Silver? You think God unjust because he did not first confer with you before creating the universes as he did?

Indeed. God test the heart...
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Unless otherwise cited all bible quotes are from the ESV

[Doug]

So after reviewing the few responses I have come to the conclusion that none of you really understand what I am asking. There are those who have mistakenly labeled me an atheist - nothing could be farther from the truth. And more disturbingly, there are those who profess to believe in the God described in the Bible who want to argue that God did not create sin. They confuse Create with Commit. If God is God, then He most assuredly did Create sin. Just as he created everything else including pain, suffering and misery. The central question is WHY. God knew before He created anything what would happen, when it would happen and why it would happen. So to illustrate - let's talk about Noah.

God 'decided' to destroy the earth and everything in it because man had become exceedingly wicked - As if He did not know this was going to be the case. Then He gave instructions to Noah to build an ark. He dictated the size and characteristics of this ark. It took Noah 120 years to complete this project. All the while he preached the salvation message to those around him. None surrendered because none were called. God calls us to be saved and we respond. Now had a million or so taken Noah up on his offer of salvation, there would have been no room on the ark for them - even 100,000 would have been too much - especially for a year at sea. God knew - in advance that He was damning all of those people before creation.

So, after the flood, there are only 8 people on earth, Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives. Noah did not know Adam but almost certainly knew many people who had know him personally. He may have even knew some of Adam's children. Realizing that all those who had suffered and died in the flood were his family and realizing that it would only be a few generations before his children were at war with one another, Noah could have exercised his free will and neutered himself and his sons and therefore put and end to mankind (unless God intervened). They would have lived in peace (presumably) until the last died and then who would sin and suffer?

So before creation God knew man would fall, sin and fail. God knew of the pain and the misery His creation would cause. God destroyed His creation but saved just enough of it to start the process again. Now we have the option of being saved through Jesus. And my question still is - What is there here on earth for a saved person to live for?

[BavarianWheels]

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And yet people continue to procreate and educate themselves regardless that we all know only two things are certain in life...

Do you have children, Doug? If so, how do you want their love...as a natural reaction that's been programmed or because of a free will?
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[cslewislover]

So after reviewing the few responses I have come to the conclusion that none of you really understand what I am asking. . . . Just as he created everything else including pain, suffering and misery. The central question is WHY. God knew before He created anything what would happen, when it would happen and why it would happen.

I tried answering why. Why pain and suffering? One, because we seem to need it, actually. Not only to test us, but to push us out of complacency. I think if you think about it, you could see this aspect of human psychology in your everyday life, even. (It's funny how some other cultures recognize this better than our own.) Two, our reaction to pain and suffering, as Christians, is a powerful witness to others. Three, it is a means for reward in heaven.

So to illustrate - let's talk about Noah.

God 'decided' to destroy the earth and everything in it because man had become exceedingly wicked - As if He did not know this was going to be the case. Then He gave instructions to Noah to build an ark. He dictated the size and characteristics of this ark. It took Noah 120 years to complete this project. All the while he preached the salvation message to those around him. None surrendered because none were called. God calls us to be saved and we respond. Now had a million or so taken Noah up on his offer of salvation, there would have been no room on the ark for them - even 100,000 would have been too much - especially for a year at sea. God knew - in advance that He was damning all of those people before creation.

So, after the flood, there are only 8 people on earth, Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives. Noah did not know Adam but almost certainly knew many people who had know him personally. He may have even knew some of Adam's children. Realizing that all those who had suffered and died in the flood were his family and realizing that it would only be a few generations before his children were at war with one another, Noah could have exercised his free will and neutered himself and his sons and therefore put and end to mankind (unless God intervened). They would have lived in peace (presumably) until the last died and then who would sin and suffer?

So before creation God knew man would fall, sin and fail. God knew of the pain and the misery His creation would cause. God destroyed His creation but saved just enough of it to start the process again. Now we have the option of being saved through Jesus. And my question still is - What is there here on earth for a saved person to live for?

When I became a Christian, it was because the Lord showed me His love in a powerful way. Because I wanted to thank him, I began volunteering. It was a reason to live, if you want to think of it that way, and I think the basic one: we are to live for helping others.

There's this little book by Leo Tolstoy called, What Men Live By. It used to be made into Christmas plays all of the time, but not in recent years for some reason. In this book an angel questions God's judgment in letting a new mother die, leaving her twin babies alone in the world. Because of this, the angel is sent to earth to be like a human until he learns what men live by, and a couple of other things. I would like to reproduce here the last pages.

What mankind was given I knew already. Now I knew what is not given to mankind. It is not given to men to know their own needs. . . . But I was not yet able to understand everything. I was not able to understand yet what men live by; and I lived on and waited until God should reveal the last lesson to me. Then in the sixth year came the woman with the twin children, and I knew the children, and I knew that they had been kept alive. I knew it, and I thought, "The mother begged me to spare her to save her children, and I believed the mother; I thought that without father or mother it was impossible for children to live; and lo! a strange woman has nourished them and brought them up." And when the woman wept with joy over another's children, I saw in her the living God, and knew what men live by [my emphasis]; and I knew that God had revealed the last lesson to me, and had forgiven me, and I smiled for the third time.

I learnt that man does not live by care for himself, but by love for others. It was not given the mother to know what was needful for the life of her children; it was not given to the rich man to know what was needful for himself; and it is not given to any man to know whether by the evening he will want boots for his living body or slippers for his corpse. When I came to earth as a man, I lived not by care for myself, but by the love that was in the heart of a passerby, and his wife, and because they were kind and merciful to me. The orphans lived not by any care they had for themselves; they lived through the love that was in the heart of a stranger, a woman who was kind and merciful to them. And all men live, not by reason of any care they have for themselves, but by the love for them that is in other people.

I knew before that God gives life to men, and desires them to live; but now I know far more. I know that God does not desire men to live apart from each other, and therefore has not revealed to them what is needful for each of them to live by himself. He wishes them to live together united, and therefore has revealed to them that they are needful to each other's happiness.

I know now that people only seem to live when they care only for themselves, and that it is by love for others that they really live. He who has Love has God in him, and is in God--because God is Love.

So when I read the last post of yours, and comparing it to this, it seems like you are simply judging God like the angel in this story did. A saved person is on this earth to love and help others.

[B. W.]

...And more disturbingly, there are those who profess to believe in the God described in the Bible who want to argue that God did not create sin. They confuse Create with Commit. If God is God, then He most assuredly did Create sin. Just as he created everything else including pain, suffering and misery. The central question is WHY. God knew before He created anything what would happen, when it would happen and why it would happen....

So before creation God knew man would fall, sin and fail. God knew of the pain and the misery His creation would cause. God destroyed His creation but saved just enough of it to start the process again. Now we have the option of being saved through Jesus. And my question still is - What is there here on earth for a saved person to live for?

Doug,

We did answer your questions. Are you trying to indict God for creating evil? Or build on the presupposition that since evil exists then God either cannot exist or he does not care? Re-read my post again: Can you answer the questions posed?

I suggest you read Psalms 145 sometime soon as it reveals things about God's Character...

First God is slow to anger…

Psalms 145:8 - "The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love."

Next, he respects whom he made and provides things to sustain life for both the just and unjust...

verse 9, "The LORD is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made."

God satisfies the desire of every living thing

Verse 16, "You open your hand; you satisfy the desire of every living thing."

This is indeed profound. This means he honors his gifts — such his gift of life and shows respect for the independent decisions they make. Here are a few other points the bible makes about God's character: His Gifts and calling are irrevocable. He honors his word and keeps it, and makes sure what he speaks and wills is carefully arrived at without any violation to His own integrity by not violating his own gifts given to whom he made.

You sound like you would like God to be strict, arbitrary, one that denies liberty in whom he created with intelligence just to avoid foreknown evil. This would mean the god you prefer would be one who favors automatons to relate too and love. Devoid of feelings, living in bliss, unable to think on their own, unless programmed (hardwired) to love God.

How could that be just to, “God, who's ways are justice, a God of faithfulness, God who is without iniquity, Who is just and upright to all…?” Deu 32:3-4

To fashion one in an unjust way that denies the ability to reason and think independently is not just. How could God be just and loving if he denies such gifts? How could God all powerful be all powerful if He denies himself to work through all things to arrive at a preordained goal without any violation to His own integrity proven by not violating His own gifts given to whom he made?

Even though he created beings that have intelligence and exercise reason independently does not prove he created evil even when foreknowing the outcome. Sin remains the creature's own doing — own creation.

Can human beings create? As a reflection of God we were fashioned under, we have a limited ability to create. Even the angelic beings God made have limited ability to create. If then, create, then who created sin?

You imply, that since God created such beings, God created evil due to foreknowing; again, this does not impugn nor prove God guilty of creating sin. It proves “The LORD is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.” That he is just and fair allowing his created beings the ability to do as they desire.

What's God afraid since He is all powerful? He will work through all things perfectly and thus rid sin and evil justly and more flawlessly without any violation to His own integrity proven by not even violating His own gifts given to whom he made. You and I are incapable of doing this. The world we design violates others everyday.

So God is in the process of containing evil, stopping it justly, rightly, perfectly, without perverting justice and equity to anyone and Himself. This is a slow process and why Psalms 145:4 states: “One generation shall commend your works to another, and shall declare your mighty acts.”

God is slow to anger and being slow to anger does not mean he never gets angry. He slow from one generation to another explaining patiently to each who he is.

From this --

Pslam 145:20, “The LORD preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.”

Regarding the type of destruction, Ecclesiastes 3:14 gives a clue:

Ecc 3:14, “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.”

The destruction is not non-being as that violates the gift of Life God gives. He will never revoke his gifts — he is true to his word. This speaks of the destruction that brings ruin and shame without end as that is what one desired more than the love of God.

Psalms 145:21, “My mouth will speak the praise of the LORD, and let all flesh bless his holy name forever and ever.”

So there you have it. The Lord who is leading us to His desired goal arrived at without any violation to His integrity proven by not violating his own gifts given to whom he made. Now that is perfect!

Deu 32:3-4, “ God! "The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he."

Listen to Elihu in Job 34:10-12, "Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong. 11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him. 12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice”

Lastly, you asked — what does a saved person to live for? Here is you first clue:

Rom 8:29, “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers…”

This takes time and involves a process of...

...Becoming Born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we cannot save ourselves nor cleanse ourselves — only the Lord can. He will transform one who believes in him in due time into what he originally intended them to be without any violation to His integrity proven by not violating his own gifts given to whom he made. Now that is perfect!

Note Revelations 21 and 22

Are you really born again?

I ask this question wherever I speak — Are you certain of heaven without any doubts?

Bible quotes not cited from the ESV
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[cslewislover]

I'd like to post here one of the visions Julian of Norwich had (I have no reason to doubt her visions). Her visions often were slightly at odds with the church (Catholic - this was in the 1300s), and she acknowledged this some, humbly, since she didn't want to get burned at the stake. Anyway, Doug, I think this is what you're getting at somewhat, about the existence of evil and God, and how we should view Him.

"After this I saw God in a point*, that is to say in my understanding [that is, the type of vision it was], and in this sight I saw that he is in all things. I beheld attentively, seeing and knowing in the sight. And as I marveled quietly, a soft dread came over me so that I asked in my mind, 'What is sin?' For I saw clearly that God does all things, even the very least. I knew truly that nothing happens by chance or accident, but all is by the foreseeing wisdom of God. Even if it seems by chance or accident in our sight, that is due to blindness or shortsighted on our part. For these things are in God's foreseeing wisdom from without beginning (indeed he leads them all rightfully, gloriously, continually to their best end); yet as they come about, they fall upon us suddenly to take us unawares. And thus, by our blindness and lack of foresight, we see them as mishaps or accidents; but it is not like that with God. Therefore I needs must recognize that all that is done, it is well done, for our Lord does all. But at this time, creatures' [our] deeds were not shown, but only our Lord working in the creature. For he is in the midpoint of all things and he does all things; yet I was sure he did not sin. And here I saw truly that sin is no-deed, for in all this sin was never shown. I could no longer marvel at this but beheld our Lord and whatever he would show me.

For a while, therefore, the rightful workings of God were shown to this soul. Rightfulness has two fair properties: it is right and it is full. And even so are all the works of God our Lord; and to them belongs neither the work of mercy nor grace, for where nothing fails, all is right. (Later, at another time, I shall tell how he showed me the vision of sin nakedly, when he uses the work of mercy and grace.)

Now this vision was shown to my understanding, for our Lord wants the soul truly turned so as to behold him and all his works in general. For they are full of goodness, all his doings are easy and sweet; and at once the soul is eased when it turns from our own blind judgment toward the fair, sweet judgment of God.

While to us some deeds may seem well done, others evil, this is not so in God's sight. For since all things have their ground in God's making, so all that is done belongs to God's doing. It is easy to understand that the best things are well done: yet as equally well as the best and highest deed is done, so too is the least thing well done; and all because it belongs to the order God ordained from without beginning, for he is the only doer. I saw full surely that he never changes his purpose in any manner of thing, nor will he without end. For there was nothing that he did not know that he has not rightfully ordained without beginning; therefore all was set in order, including all things made, as they would stand without end. Thus no single thing shall fail at the point that he made them all fully good; therefore the blessed Trinity is always fully pleased in all his works. . . . Thus mightily, wisely, and lovingly was the soul examined in the vision. Then I saw truly that I needs must assent with great reverence, simply enoying God."

* "This striking metaphor is mulitheaded: God is the still center of creation; he is without dimension, immeasurable; he is without time--the point outside time that is discontinuous because eternal."

This is from the translation by John Skinner, Revelation of Love (Image Books/Doubleday 1997, pp 25-26). I believe she talks even more about this later in the book (indeed, she even mentions it in the above passage), and I'll post it if the thread is still active.

[B. W.]

Very good read cslewislover

Cslewislover Have you read the "Cloud of Unknowing and Privet Counsel?” Those are some of my favorites; however, they concern a different topic than what we are discussing here
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[cslewislover]

Very good read cslewislover

Cslewislover Have you read the "Cloud of Unknowing and Privet Counsel?” Those are some of my favorites; however, they concern a different topic than what we are discussing here
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Thanks BW! It's been "forever" since I read the Cloud of Unknowing, although I have a copy here . . . waiting. I've never heard of Privet Counsel. Is it similar? In the past, I've really liked reading St. John of the Cross, Jean-Pierre De Caussade (Abandonment to Divine Providence), and Teresa of Avila (Interior Castle). I need to read some of these over again. I still haven't read William Law's A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy life (most people recommend this, but I've heard it criticized). Lol, here I'm making a reading list. Have you read any of these?

[B. W.]

Very good read cslewislover

Cslewislover Have you read the "Cloud of Unknowing and Privet Counsel?” Those are some of my favorites; however, they concern a different topic than what we are discussing here
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Thanks BW! It's been "forever" since I read the Cloud of Unknowing, although I have a copy here . . . waiting. I've never heard of Privet Counsel. Is it similar? In the past, I've really liked reading St. John of the Cross, Jean-Pierre De Caussade (Abandonment to Divine Providence), and Teresa of Avila (Interior Castle). I need to read some of these over again. I still haven't read William Law's A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy life (most people recommend this, but I've heard it criticized). Lol, here I'm making a reading list. Have you read any of these?

Hi cslewislover,

I just returned form Maryland from a Church conference, so a bit late in responding.

I've read writings from St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila Interior Castle. I've read parts of William Law's A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy life several years ago, but have not read Jean-Pierre De Caussade Abandonment to Divine Providence. Privet Council was written by the same author as the Cloud and also goes by the title of the old English of -- Privey Council. Penguin Classic Publications of the Cloud have this short book added in it.
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[cslewislover]

Oh, yes, now that I look at my copy of The Cloud of Unknowing, I see that it has The Book of Privy Counseling as well (it's an Image book, translated by Huston Smith). Maybe we should start a thread on the writings of contemplatives and mystics.

[B. W.]

Oh, yes, now that I look at my copy of The Cloud of Unknowing, I see that it has The Book of Privy Counseling as well (it's an Image book, translated by Huston Smith). Maybe we should start a thread on the writings of contemplatives and mystics.

Maybe we should

A contemplative thread!
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[cslewislover]

Oh, yes, now that I look at my copy of The Cloud of Unknowing, I see that it has The Book of Privy Counseling as well (it's an Image book, translated by Huston Smith). Maybe we should start a thread on the writings of contemplatives and mystics.

Maybe we should

A contemplative thread!
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I added one in the Christian Theology section. I didn't call it "contemplative" since that has such negative connotations for a lot of people (possible relations with eastern religions today, etc.). I guess I'll have to post there now, which means I'll have to read more, lol.

[Harry12345]

God's existance proves we're in serious bother unless we submit our will to Him.