Evidence for God from Science

Mrs K wrote:Gman

Over 49 million unborn babies have been killed since Roe v Wade legalized abortion in January 1973. (Source: Abort73, but other sites confirm - Google abortion statistics.) Approx. 1.2 million unborn babies are killed each year, about 3,300 per day.

Compare that to how many were killed and injured in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan... compare that to how many have died in all the previous American Wars combined... which is really the more important issue???

Here's a reproduction of a chart I came across in the book 'Abortion the Silent Holocaust' published in 1981:

abortion-chart.gif

Here's an update of the War on the Unborn as of 2009 (49+ million) - each cross representes 50,000 killed:

✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝✝
✝✝✝✝✝

Why is the war on the unborn not an important enough issue for you?

Very good Mrs. K
Thank you, welcome to G&S.

Gman wrote:Kurieuo, I would agree with you that Obama flunks on many issues, mostly speaking on the abortion issue. But I'm sorry, there are other issues that are also at stake here... Namely this God awful war that we are in that is not only is killing our soldiers, but is also making us public enemy number 1 with the Arabs.. In fact, I think it is too late now to just pull out... Now, I'm for bombing Afghanistan and going after Bin Laden. But we needed to also have a sound exit plan... All you need to do is look and see what is happening to Israel. Why should we subject ourselves to what Israel is going through? 60 years of carnage? All I know is that anything is better than what McCain has to offer... He was a flip flopper (also on the abortion issue) and a pro war militant... Enough is enough...

Wait, wait, wait . . . other than the stats that Mrs K pointed out, let's just compare the war with abortion a second.

You are more concerned with the Arabs hating us than for the life of 50 million children????????????? Muslims, who are going to hate us because their religion tells them too. You are more concerned with appeasing THEIR hatred than for saving the lives of MILLIONS of human beings?

Look at your words . . . "Anything is better that what McCain has to offer." ANYTHING, Gman? you really believe that peace with Islamic radicals (which won't happen anyway) is BETTER than saving the lives of our children? Do you really and honestly believe that it is better to murder babies than to offend a Muslim?

And then you ask about putting ourselves to what Israel is going through. What have the Arabs taken away from you? What have the Muslims done to you? It certainly isn't nearly as bad as anything that they've done to Israel. And let's just say that we had to live under the same terror as Israel does (and we don't, nor will we ever have to, for simple geographical reasons). If you had to choose between living under Muslim terror and the sacrifice of 50 MILLION children, which would you choose? Because your vote for Obama said that you are more interested in your own skin and your own comfort than the lives of human beings--unborn human beings.

There is no greater issue than abortion for the simple reason that abortion is MURDER. Do you think for one second, one SECOND, that God approves of our decision to support a murderer because that murderer is going to make US more comfortable in whatever sense of the word you could possibly mean it? Life comes first. Comfort is a very distant second.

It was a sin to vote for Obama. It was a vote to continue and expand the murder of children. Whatever anyone's justification, that is the bottom line--a vote to continue and expand the murder of children.

Jac3510 wrote:It was a sin to vote for Obama. It was a vote to continue and expand the murder of children. Whatever anyone's justification, that is the bottom line--a vote to continue and expand the murder of children.

I was with you for the most part up to this point. I believe Obama is God's choice no matter how much we disagree or think it goes against God's will. Fact of the matter is if God didn't intend for him to be there, he wouldn't be. To say voting for Obama is a sin...is no more or less of a sin to have voted against Obama not knowing the God's plan.
.
.

By that logic, I can rape or kill or steal and when God doesn't stop me, say it wasn't a sin because it was God's plan. God expects us to stand up for justice and to defend the oppressed. God has a general will, but He also has a permissive will. To vote Obama was to vote for his agenda; his agenda included the the expansion of infanticide. To vote for the expansion of infanticide is sin. Ergo, to vote for Obama was sin.

The whole point of a democracy is that we get to decide who we support based on their positions. Obama told us his view on abortion. Many people who say they love God looked at Obama's pro-murder policies and said, "Ah, that's ok. He'll make me more comfortable." I hardly think that God's sovereignty absolves a person from such selfishness.

Jac3510 wrote:By that logic, I can rape or kill or steal and when God doesn't stop me, say it wasn't a sin because it was God's plan. God expects us to stand up for justice and to defend the oppressed. God has a general will, but He also has a permissive will. To vote Obama was to vote for his agenda; his agenda included the the expansion of infanticide. To vote for the expansion of infanticide is sin. Ergo, to vote for Obama was sin.

The whole point of a democracy is that we get to decide who we support based on their positions. Obama told us his view on abortion. Many people who say they love God looked at Obama's pro-murder policies and said, "Ah, that's ok. He'll make me more comfortable." I hardly think that God's sovereignty absolves a person from such selfishness.

I would simply reply that by your logic, one might conclude that democracy overrides God's will...ergo, WE make God's decision and that through our decisions, God works His plan. I think that while there are some instances that God seems to make a detour of sorts on His plan to allow for human desires, it is by His already laid plan that the world continues.
.
.

Yeah, but that would ignore the whole permissive will thing . . .

If God letting something happens means that it isn't sin, then there is no such thing is as sin, because everything that happens only happens because God lets it.

Jac3510 wrote:Yeah, but that would ignore the whole permissive will thing . . .

If God letting something happens means that it isn't sin, then there is no such thing is as sin, because everything that happens only happens because God lets it.

So then how far does one take this thinking? Where does a human draw the line and say which "sins" are more sinful than others? Why do we make the legalization of abortion the flag of sin in voting for government? In essence, is not Obama allowing the act of a sin (abortion) to take place just as God never physically stops humans from sinning? Is it not a sin also to drink (legally) and kill another person as a result of one's drunkeness? (It's not illegal to drink nor is it illegal to be drunk) Is the death of an already born life less important than that of the unborn life? Exactly what makes abortion the measure of a sinful vote? If Obama allows the drinking of alcohol, is it not the same in regards to sin/murder/killing as legalized abortion? If sin is sin, there is no difference and thus no basis for saying voting Obama is a sinful vote. (I'm hardly pro-Obama btw)
.
.

Sin is sin no matter what, and no sin is "worse" than another. But, that doesn't mean that all sins are equally harmful to society or that God judges all as harshly. As far as what things should and should not be supported and on what levels, those things can all be discussed and reasoned about. They are part of the general moral law, and so we can have honest debate over what the gov't has jurisdicition over, what we can support, what we shouldn't, etc. But there IS a point at which some things are absolutely non-negotiable, and the basic right to life is one of them.

It simply doesn't matter how much good a man supports. If his policies will expand the murder of children, then it is sinful to support him. That doesn't mean that abortion is the ONLY such issue. It just happens to be the most pressing in our time. 60 years ago, the Holocaust was an issue in Germany; the GULAG in Russia.

Whatever a person's political and theological beliefs, we are mandated by God to support life. We are mandated by God to oppose those who would take that life from another without the due process of the law. Obama supports murder. There is NO justification for supporting him, because no matter how many good things you can stack on one side, HE SUPPORTS FREE AND OPEN MURDER. To support him, then, is to support free and open murder, which is gross sin.

Anyone who voted for him has the blood of 50 million children and counting on their hands.

Jac3510 wrote:Anyone who voted for him has the blood of 50 million children and counting on their hands.

The same can be said of alcohol, for instance. Anyone advocating, partaking in and/or not publicly denouncing it, has the blood of all alcohol related deaths and counting on their hands.

The question remains...what makes abortion the point/subject at which you pronounce anyone that voted Obama in, a murderer?
.
.

I think there was a right and wrong way to vote in the election - no matter the end result. Even if it is God's plan to allow Obama to be US president (like He allowed Saddam Hussein to be President of Iraq), it does not mean that He wanted His followers to vote him in.

If one believes God cares about the lives of the unborn, then I don't know how they could stand before God and say, "I made the good, right, moral choice. I voted for Your man on this, Lord."

I just posted an article in a separate thread about Obama's Abortion Extremism. This is an excellent read if you want to get a detailed understanding of Obama's position on the rights of the unborn based on his past political actions (even though he disingenuously claimed that an anwer to that is 'above my pay grade').

Mrs K wrote:I think there was a right and wrong way to vote in the election - no matter the end result. Even if it is God's plan to allow Obama to be US president (like He allowed Saddam Hussein to be President of Iraq), it does not mean that He wanted His followers to vote him in.

If one believes God cares about the lives of the unborn, then I don't know how they could stand before God and say, "I made the good, right, moral choice. I voted for Your man on this, Lord."

So in regards to the nature of politics, this raises another question, that of whether a true Christian should involve himself/herself so deeply into politics. Either vote is a vote in sin as there are no honest politicians. But that's a subject for another thread.
.
.

BavarianWheels wrote:So in regards to the nature of politics, this raises another question, that of whether a true Christian should involve himself/herself so deeply into politics. Either vote is a vote in sin as there are no honest politicians. But that's a subject for another thread.

That is true, but the same can be said of all humans-noone is perfectly honest.
The person we vote for is the person who supports the main issue(s)we support as individuals.
If both opponents don't hold support for the issue, then we should not vote for either.
If we do, we have supported a cause that is against our thinking.

Abortion is murder of our most defenseless who cannot speak for themselves and have no choice.
As such they are denied the same rights as you and I are afforded.

Can you or anyone tell me why one human should have a chance and another have no chance at all and no sayso about it?

BavarianWheels wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:Anyone who voted for him has the blood of 50 million children and counting on their hands.

The same can be said of alcohol, for instance. Anyone advocating, partaking in and/or not publicly denouncing it, has the blood of all alcohol related deaths and counting on their hands.

The question remains...what makes abortion the point/subject at which you pronounce anyone that voted Obama in, a murderer?
.
.

That's just it--anyone who voted for Obama is a murderer. It is THEIR fault that children are dying. It would be one thing if they were ignorant of it, but Obama made his position clear, and when people say, "Yeah, I disagree with him there, but ya know, there are more important things," then they are as morally responsible for the death of the unborn as the doctors who crush those children's skulls.

So let's compare that to alcohol. Does alcohol kill? Of course. But is that its purpose? No. Cars kill. But is that their purpose? No. So it isn't immediately obvious that we should ban alcohol and cars, just because when used improperly they result in loss. But what about drunkeness? Now, that can kill. It's not its purpose, but there is certainly nothing positive about drunkeness. And if someone ran on a platform in which they argued that public drunkeness should be encouraged, it would be sinful to vote for them as well. But even here there is a difference, because while public drunkeness may result in death, abortion is designed to result in death. In fact, it goes further, because abortion isn't just about a woman's "right to choose;" it is about her taking away ALL rights from another by taking away the child's right to life.

If, then, anyone runs on ANY platform in which the express purpose of the platform is to take away other people's lives--to murder them--then the person who votes for them is an accomplis to murder. What sickens me in all this is that Christians claim to love God while helping to murder children. Thanks to the people on this very board who voted for Obama, the money I am making at work now is going to be taken from me and handed to an abortion clinic in a third world country so that they can murder a child. Yet these people say they love God? What does the Bible say about that?

"If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?" 1 John 3:17. If John says the love of God is not in a person who refuses to give to the needy, how much less can the love of God be in the one who actively engages in taking away the life of the helpless? Or again:

"If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." 1 John 4:20. When we murder our children, are we loving or hating them? When we tell them that their lives are not as important as our comfort, are we loving or hating them? When we say to 50 million dead children and millions more to come that our beliefs about a war are more important than their lives, are we loving or hating them? When we give money to the people who kill them for a living, are we loving or hating them?

Clearly, in supporting abortion, we are hating these children. If these people say they love God, the Holy Spirit through John calls them a liar. And if Jesus was so concerned about children that he said it would be better to be drowned in a lake than to cause any of them to sin, how do you think He feels about the person who keeps them from living a life that is glorifying to Him by snuffing it out while still in the womb?

There are stark differences in supporting a person who supports things that are potentially harmful vs. supporting a person who supports free and clear murder.

Cross.eyed wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:So in regards to the nature of politics, this raises another question, that of whether a true Christian should involve himself/herself so deeply into politics. Either vote is a vote in sin as there are no honest politicians. But that's a subject for another thread.

That is true, but the same can be said of all humans-noone is perfectly honest.
The person we vote for is the person who supports the main issue(s)we support as individuals.
If both opponents don't hold support for the issue, then we should not vote for either.
If we do, we have supported a cause that is against our thinking.

No one is perfect...understood. I agree with you, however the nature of politics is to appease as many as possible while remaining neutral to all...hense the reason one cannot find one honest politician because if he supports a ban on abortion, yet supports legal alcohol...how is the line drawn between the two killers of human souls, be they born or unborn? Which life is more important and how have we come to the conclusion of this?

Cross.eyed wrote:Abortion is murder of our most defenseless who cannot speak for themselves and have no choice.
As such they are denied the same rights as you and I are afforded.

Can you or anyone tell me why one human should have a chance and another have no chance at all and no sayso about it?

Who's to say God hasn't a plan for these that have not passed through the womb as the rest of us? Who's to say they don't have salvation? Last I checked, the Bible makes no mention of the unborn or aborted fetus and their position or lack thereof. It seems to hint at or suggest an age of accountability. Maybe someone can help me with this part as I have been brought to a partial belief without really knowing about the teaching of the Bible and an age of accountability in depth.
.
.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Cross.eyed wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:So in regards to the nature of politics, this raises another question, that of whether a true Christian should involve himself/herself so deeply into politics. Either vote is a vote in sin as there are no honest politicians. But that's a subject for another thread.

That is true, but the same can be said of all humans-noone is perfectly honest.
The person we vote for is the person who supports the main issue(s)we support as individuals.
If both opponents don't hold support for the issue, then we should not vote for either.
If we do, we have supported a cause that is against our thinking.

No one is perfect...understood. I agree with you, however the nature of politics is to appease as many as possible while remaining neutral to all...hense the reason one cannot find one honest politician because if he supports a ban on abortion, yet supports legal alcohol...how is the line drawn between the two killers of human souls, be they born or unborn? Which life is more important and how have we come to the conclusion of this?

Cross.eyed wrote:Abortion is murder of our most defenseless who cannot speak for themselves and have no choice.
As such they are denied the same rights as you and I are afforded.

Can you or anyone tell me why one human should have a chance and another have no chance at all and no sayso about it?

Who's to say God hasn't a plan for these that have not passed through the womb as the rest of us? Who's to say they don't have salvation? Last I checked, the Bible makes no mention of the unborn or aborted fetus and their position or lack thereof. It seems to hint at or suggest an age of accountability. Maybe someone can help me with this part as I have been brought to a partial belief without really knowing about the teaching of the Bible and an age of accountability in depth.
.
.

In addition to my the comments in my previous reply, let me add in response to this: you make it sound as if this is all about preference. One person may be concerned about alcohol, another about abortion, and another about robbery. This isn't about preference. This is about FUNDAMENTAL rights. Even moral idiots can see that some things are outrageous. What would we say about a pro-slavery candidate? How would we feel about a law that would legalize child prostitution? While both of those would be morally outrageous on a fantastic level, at least in both cases the victim is ALIVE. We are talking about GOVERNMENT FUNDED MURDER.

Don't you realize that YOUR money is being used to kill children? Look at your check. Look at the withholdings. A portion of that is going to kill children. You are funding murder thanks to the people who voted for Barak. I do not know how to make this any clearer . . .

And what do you think God thinks about us not being mad about that by appealing to His sovereignty?! Can't you imagine how infurating it is to God that His own children are using His name to justify both their contribution to murder and their disinterest in doing anything about it???