Evidence for God from Science

catherine wrote:Thanks for all your thoughts on this.
Jac, you said: '' Until you come to recognize that human beings absolutely and totally deserve every moment of torture in an eternal hell, you will always have a problem with the justice of God, for you see yourself (and other supposedly "innocent" people) as not REALLY being THAT bad.'' I completely and utterly reject and abhor this statement of yours. It repulses me and fortunately after studying this in great length I am convinced you are utterly wrong. You are asking us to suspend our common sense and the usual measuring sticks we use in this life, regarding these massacres, and just accept cos we don't know ? If God is anything like Jesus, then if there is a good reason, He won't be biting my head off for wondering about it.

Jac's point, I think, (alhtough please correct me if I am wrong), is that a correct view of Humans as depraved and sinful means that all are guilty and deserving of God's wrath. As painful as that is, until we really understand how utterly we have fallen, we will NEVER understand His grace. If we don't really see the nature of humans as against God, then we will see Him as unjust.

The unfortunate fact of this our existence is that humans will always face the curse until CHrist's return and we are under a new creation. Now that doesn't mean that we cannot struggle through questions. (Why is there cancer, why did God deliver someone from one disease and another doe from the same disease...why do babies die and suffer) However, I think we will not really be satisfied in any answer but that knowing that GOd is incontrol and that He is just. Do you not think that God weeps for the suffering? Even in His justice and wrath? Does a father not hurt when punishment is meted out to his children? I think many have the picture of a gleeful God, sadistic, facetious, and flippant.

catherine wrote: Once I know the reason I may feel real bad that I doubted Him, but from this perspective, here in the 21st century, I can't see an explanantion - and in Job's case, the evil being done to him was via Satan, not God. God allowed Satan to test Job. God allows evil up to today. This is hard to accept, but I understand everything has to run it's course to the sorry end.

Do you really think that there is a big difference between God *allowing*?

I think there is a difference between an honest struggle with what happens in life, the Psalmist stated it over and over....essentially "God, I look around me and I see the innocent dying and suffering and the wicked flourishing and complainging that this isn't just but I know that you are ultimately the one who will see this through" versus "God, how could you do this, you are wrong".

I don't think we are mean to be pollyanna about our faith, always smiling and whistling about how everything is great. THere is a time to really mourn for the death that still occurs.

There is a great line form a Michael Card song written as if from Go'd's thoughts..."I will heal the wounds I make, and carefully take them back to me"

catherine wrote:I most whole heartedly do not believe in a literal hell and will be quite happy to go through all the scriptures that seem to support this pagan belief. The word hell has been mistranslated in both the OT and the NT.

Maybe 'dropping down dead' was a bit silly, but why not 'fire from heaven'? That would teach a lesson,no? I don't understand why God uses humans to execute people in these massacres and the methods they were told to use. I can accept that humans were used to do God's will, but it's the methods I'm struggling with. The screamings, bloodshed, horror etc, must have assalted the senses of the Israelites. War is bad and will be done away with, so it seems strange that God uses it when it pleases Him to do so. Why not clear the nations away before the Israelites got there? God destroyed cities like Sodom and Gomorrah Himself. Why have a nation of warriors? If they were a nation under God's direct rule, you'd think this nation would 'shine' like a beacon to the other nations. It would represent peace, obeying God, with God 'present' with His people. Any nation rising against God's nation could be dealt with by God. I don't know........

Hi Catherine,

I wanted to respond earlier to this thread but been out with bronchitis, recovered from this, and now turned into a quite a cold.

As I read your post, you seem to believe humanity is good as well as innocent, do you not?
-
-
-

After reading through this thread, let's not forget the historical record in those God was addressing judgment upon (as well as the consequences to future generations).

The historical record gives ample evidence that the ancient world of paganistic practices were brutal. (You could even look into the Aztec world of only four hundred years ago as a recent example of pagan culture of the Aztec practice of cutting the heart out from a living person - such rites, and even more brutal than this, were common in the ancient world over 2000 years ago too).

The ancient Israelites were pitted against peoples who practiced genocide during war as an art form. Their religious practices were also brutal, animalistic, sexual perverse (bestiality, child rape, child genocide), etc and etc.

Sociologically, as well as psychologically, people do indeed become desensitized to violence and acts of perversion. This spreads from adults to children who in turn become adults and this process becomes incessant. Often, a whole society can become so corrupt and evil that only by means of war can stop them from continuing.

So, lets rephrase the question:

Should the pagan world be allowed to accomplish genocide on the ancient Israelites so as to prove God not cruel but instead all lovingly tolerant of everyone's religious beliefs?

Let's move on to another question:

Why did God desire (want) a nation (in this case ancient Israel) to be a light midst a dark world?

Another point to ponder regarding this subject:

If Saul would have obey God, would there be Al Queda today, or even militant Islam?


One last Point:

FL mentioned my book. It is true, I saw no child in hell. I do see in the bible this very principle found in Jesus' own words:

Matthew 18:14, “…So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.”

Matthew 19:14, “…but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 18:10, "…See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven."

Lastly:

Look at Luke 16:20: “And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores…”

Word translated 'poor or beggar' in this verse also means 'helpless.” Note also that Lazarus means “one whom God helps.”

There are those whom God helps that are helpless in life: for example, those born disabled (Down Syndrome, etc…). An interesting note is that during ancient times, those who were permitted to live in society and not left to die in the wastelands that had such things as Down Syndrome, etc, usually were shunned by society and forced to beg. They were often covered with sores do to lack of care.

So hypothetically from Luke 16:20 you could concluded that God has a special grace for those less fortunate than the rest of normal society (us). Why? Before Christ's work on the cross in Luke 16:20 it says that there was a certain (In Greek this mean - a most certain) man named Lazarus who went to paradise and not to the place where the other man went. Think on this a bit more concerning the God who changes not…

So the argument about God being ultimately cruel and evil to those "helpless" as well as 'Little Children' being murdered by God is not true. This could only be true if God did indeed annihilate people into non-being, which he does not.

Who is guilty of murdering children? In the womb? Out of the womb?

And Jesus said - "See that you do not despise (contemn, despise, disdain, think little or nothing of) one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven...” Matthew 18:10

Who are we to condemn God???

Bible quotes from ESV
-
-
-

Hi Everyone, thanks again for all your help. B.W I wasn't trying to suggest we are not guilty and don't deserve God's judgment. I did explain this point in my post. I was struggling with how God destroys some people. However, I have been looking at the links Kurieuo provided, and they are helping me a lot. It has got things into perspective. I still don't understand but I can see that God gave these nations warnings before they were destroyed. Also, their deeds were very evil. In view of 'all' I know of God, I will trust that God knows what He is doing. I'll quit ranting on now. Sorry if I offended anyone. My baby grandson has been poorly this week and I've been looking after him. I think that was getting to me and it got me thinking of those babies etc. God is good. Regardless of my 'doubts'. As the disciples struggled one of the times and said 'this is a hard teaching', they didn't leave Jesus but Peter answered 'to whom shall we go?'

catherine wrote:Regardless of my 'doubts'. As the disciples struggled one of the times and said 'this is a hard teaching', they didn't leave Jesus but Peter answered 'to whom shall we go?'

Catherine,

Your question was a legitimate question... We all have them and all can have our doubts here and there. I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm not in the least offended by your question(s).

Take care..
G -

catherine wrote:Hi Everyone, thanks again for all your help. B.W I wasn't trying to suggest we are not guilty and don't deserve God's judgment. I did explain this point in my post. I was struggling with how God destroys some people. However, I have been looking at the links Kurieuo provided, and they are helping me a lot. It has got things into perspective. I still don't understand but I can see that God gave these nations warnings before they were destroyed. Also, their deeds were very evil. In view of 'all' I know of God, I will trust that God knows what He is doing. I'll quit ranting on now. Sorry if I offended anyone. My baby grandson has been poorly this week and I've been looking after him. I think that was getting to me and it got me thinking of those babies etc. God is good. Regardless of my 'doubts'. As the disciples struggled one of the times and said 'this is a hard teaching', they didn't leave Jesus but Peter answered 'to whom shall we go?'

I'm glad Vicky re-brought the links I posted to your attention, and even more glad that you took the time to read them. This is a good question to ask and ones I think we as Christians who take seriously the OT should have answers to. The difficulty is in dealing with each specific case, and being thorough so a response is provided which adequately deals with each. I think Glenn Miller does a great job responding to them, and putting some perspective on the issues that are often overlooked.

To deal with the less daunting issue of why God just didn't carry out His judgment against such nations Himself. It is important to keep in mind God didn't just use Israel as an instrument to carry out His judgment on such nations, but also as a method to test, shape and refine Israel. If Israel really wanted their independence as a nation, and really wanted the land God had for them, then they had to fight for it. If God spoiled them, then they would not have appreciated what they were given and may have taken everything for granted. Furthermore, surrounding nations would not have feared Israel as much as they did without the reputation Israel stamped for themselves (and who knows, perhaps much more war would have unfolded to the detriment of Israel).

One thing seems apparent to me, and that is God was refining Israel as His own people through hardship ever since they left Egypt. God according to Scripture also looks to have used Israel to at the same time carry out judgment against nations who continually threatened the people He had adopted as His own. So in a way, it made good sense for God to use Israel, rather than directly deal with the nations Himself as displayed in Egypt.

Good points Kurieuo, thanks again for the links. I feel a 'peace' inside now. God Bless.

catherine wrote:Hi Everyone, thanks again for all your help. B.W I wasn't trying to suggest we are not guilty and don't deserve God's judgment. I did explain this point in my post...

I did not think so but wanted to be sure

Have a great day

How's the weather in the UK?
-
-
-