B. W. Melvin note: Post 17 is also a very long post. Genesis 18 and 19 are thoroughly Trinitarian don ‘t let the critics fool you. Read slowly section at a time with your bible nearby look up every verse referenced. Post 17 is also under my copyright 2009 B. W. Melvin
Post 17
Genesis 18:17-33 - Review
From Genesis chapter 18 we identified the three men that appeared to Abraham as a theophany of one God manifested as three distinct persons known in the New Testament as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you have trouble with this, the context indicates one of the men was at least Yahweh himself appearing as a man speaking to Abraham before returning to his place (Gen 18:33).
The Yahweh that remained before Abraham speaking intention was to destroy the wicked cities as evidenced in
Genesis 18:32: Then
he (Abraham) said, "Oh let not the Lord (Yahweh the Father) be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there." He (Yahweh the Father) answered, "For the sake of ten I will not destroy it." ESV
We also have two who went to Sodom (
Gen19:13) also stating that they were going to destroy the cities; yet, in
Genesis 18:32 it is also evident that the Yahweh who remained speaking with Abraham would personally destroy these cities. How could the two, if they were really angelic beings, destroy these cites when Yahweh said, He personally would go immediately to the cities for this purpose in verse 21?
We then saw that Yahweh in
Genesis18:33 went his way returning to his place. Yet, in verse 21 Yahweh said he would go to Sodom and Gomorrah now not later! What is going on here? Does Yahweh returning to His Place indicate that He left for Sodom (verse 21) as several critics of the Trinity suggest or does it mean something else entirely?
The bible answers this by telling us where Yahweh ‘s Place actually is.
Deuteronomy 3:24 indicates heaven as does
2 Sam 22:14. In fact
1 Kings 8:30 says heaven is the Lord ‘s dwelling-place as does
Psalms 11:4, Pslams14:2, Psalms102:19 and the scripture list can go on and on. Also, Jesus said the Father is in heaven in
Matthew 5:16, 45 and we are even to pray,
Matt 6:9,
Our Father who art in Heaven.
The evidence is that Yahweh the Father in
Gen 18:33 returned to his place, which by the way is heaven. How could his place be Sodom? The heavens are Lord's and earth his footstool is the earth as I recall from scripture. There is further evidence from Genesis chapter 19:24 that Yahweh was in heaven but for now let’s continue.
We learned from Genesis chapter 18;21 how Yahweh stated specifically that he would immediately go and personally investigate, now, not later. Next in verse 22, it states that two men immediately departed for the Sodom where Lot was living. Yet we have Yahweh staying behind speaking with Abraham.
If the two were not the Son and Holy Spirit, there is nowhere in verses 17-22 that indicates that Yahweh said “
I am sending you two in my place so off you go as he would when sending a angelic being. The force of the grammar indicates that Yahweh would personally go himself, immediately and no where suggest he telepathically told angelic beings to go instead or motioned them to go. Then by verse 33 Yahweh returns to his Place - Heaven. The only way that can explain this seemingly contradiction is the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity.
Also note that these two men left before Abraham ever made his requests to advert Yahweh's wrath and rescuing Lot is not mentioned in chapter 18 as well. Yet the two messengers knew of the request before it was ever made as text indicates in Gen 19:2 by the two messengers requesting to stay the night in the open square and the rescue of Lot. How did they know? Well
Matthew 6:8 answers how, God knows before we even ask.
Who really were the two Maleks mentioned in Genesis 19?
Genesis 19:1, The two angels (Malaks: definition - Messengers (reread Post 7) arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. NIV
Genesis 19:1 now calls the two heading for Sodom, Maleks. These were definitely not angelic beings as indicated by the force of the text in Genesis 18 describing them as two men; yet, neither were these mere mortal men either. Remember how in
Post 7 that the Hebrew word Malek means simply a messenger sent on a task. Such messengers can be human, actual angels, or God himself. Context of the text identifies what type of messenger (Note
Post 8 and 9 as well) is meant.
Were these two Maleks mentioned in verse 19:1 angelic beings or were they actually the Panim of Yahweh? (For Panim see Post 4-6) Who really were these two Maleks (messengers) can we really know for certain? The answer is yes. Bible answers itself just fine.
Genesis 19:12-13, “The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it." NIV
Compare verse 13 from the NIV above with the NKJV: Genesis 19:13: “For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them has grown great before the Face of the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it. NKJV
Notice that the editors of the NIV (above) as well many other fine translations have edited out the Hebrew word
panim from the text. Yes
Panim - The Presence(s) or Face(s) of Yahweh! We learned from Post 4-6 that the Pamin of Yahweh refers to the Son and Holy Spirit.
Please note that several bible translations such as the KJV, NKJV, YLT, etc translate the word panim as Face in verse 13. This word is certainly in the Hebrew manuscripts. By not including this one word, the reader misses the grandeur of the text. Even with the word Pamin edited out, you still have 'Yahweh ‘ mentioned twice and ˜us ‘ once; therefore, even without panim translated you still have the Father sending the 'us ‘ Son and Holy Spirit (Panim) within the text.
Young's Literal Translation does an excellent job of capturing the tone of verse 13 very well:
"for we are destroying this place, for their cry hath been great before the face of Jehovah, and Jehovah doth send us to destroy it." Gen 19:13 YLT
The cry of wickedness had grown so great before the Panim (the Faces, Presences {Son and Holy Spirit}of Yahweh the Father) that the Father sent them personally to Sodom to destroy all the cities on the plain. More importantly notice in Genesis 18 there is no mention of rescuing Lot!
How did they know to rescue him?
After the two visitors meet Lot, they somehow knew of Abraham's request evidence by them wanting to stay the night in the city to see if there were at least ten righteous in the city as well as in verse 12 when asking Lot if he knew of anyone else. If none were found, they were to destroy the cities as they told Lot in verses 13 - 15 and for him and his household to flee. (Notice from the bible how the agency of Trinity works as they are indeed one
John 5:19, John 12:49)
The Maleks were to destroy the cities on the Plain
Gen 19:13: “For we will destroy (plural Hiphil Participle) this place, because the renowning howl of them has grown powerful before the face (Panim) of Yahweh, and Yahweh has sent us to destroy it. Expanded Word Translation from Author's Hebrew study notes
Notice how the two Maleks stated specifically that they will destroy the cities. Yet, in Gen 18:23-32 Yahweh (the Father) said he would. How could these maleks destroy the cities when God said that only he would do this after they had left Abraham on the hill unless they really are indeed the Pamin of Yahweh? Does the bible prove this to be true? The answer is yes.
Yahweh intended to destroy the wicked cities on the plains (Gen 18:23-32). Look at what Jesus said in
John 8:15-17,
You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. 17 In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. ESV
From
John 8:15-17 we see the principle that Jesus is sent by the Father for judgment and that all that is needed to condemn is the testimony of two witnesses. In Genesis 19:13 we see the same principle: The Father sending the Son for Judgment along with the Holy Spirit so that on the testimony of two people judgment is commuted. Lot at first saw two men come for reason of judgment, hmmm??? (
Note - John 5:22, John 16:7-11, 2 Peter 2:6)
First Objection
Before the critics claim that the two men were angelic beings acting on authority:
Remember, God will not share his glory with another. What glory is that? We shall soon see. But first let‘s get the gist of the story line. You have two Maleks in Sodom with Lot in
Gen 19:15-16 urging Lot and those around him to leave and when Lot hesitated, the two messengers grabbed the hands of Lot and family compelling them to flee. Now look at:
Genesis 19:17-22: As soon as they had brought them out, one of them (the Maleks) said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!
“18 But Lot said to them, "No, my lords (Adoni plural), please! 19 Your servant has found favor in your (singular) eyes (singular sight), and you have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can't flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I'll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn't it? Then my life will be spared."
“21 He (One of the Maleks) said to him (Lot), "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar.) NIV
How could an angel decide on his own to spare one of the small cities on the plains condemned to all be destroyed?
The Malek that spoke in verse 21 to Lot is Yahweh the Son. How do I know? Answer: comes from verses 19-21 as each describes certain attributes of Jesus, Yeshua, the Son found elsewhere in the bible.
First Objection Answered
One of the attributes of God the Son is salvation. In
Isaiah 43:11 tells us that Salvation only belongs to the Lord and comes from Him alone.
Isaiah 63:5-6 it tells us that God's own Arm brings salvation or Judgment.
Lot and family were saved holding the hands of the Maleks of Yahweh! Also this Malek granted Lot’s request that saved one small city's inhabitants on the plain as well.
Isaiah 51:5-4 tells us that the Arms of the Lord bring forth Judgment. Arm or Arms refer to the Son and Holy Spirit. In Genesis chapter 19 the Arms of the Lord are seen in action both bringing salvation and judgment. Jesus in
John 5:22-24 stated that the Father committed judgment to the Son as well as salvation and the Holy Spirit judgment as well in
John 16:11.
Isaiah 46:10 states that Yahweh does what he says, his counsel will stand, and he does his own pleasure. Salvation is by his own hands as is judgment. Who are the Maleks?
How can they be angelic beings when salvation only comes through God for He alone is Savior? The savior is revealed as Christ Jesus in the New Testament.
In
Genesis 19:21-22 you have one of the Malek's granting safe haven for Lot at Zoar and this in fact changes God's plan by this Malek saying, “
I have favored you and will not destroy Zoar as well: In addition, Genesis 14:2 tells us that Zoar was also known as Bela and was big enough to have a Ruler and therefore was inhabited.
Does not
Isaiah 46:10 state God's counsel will stand? If these two were mere angelic beings speaking in their own authority as the force of the text clearly states then they had more power than God as they altered God’s plan. There is no
thus says the Lord' used to indicated God changed his counsel here or anywhere else in the bible indicated that God did this for that matter.
The only one who can alter God's plans is God himself if he so chooses to do so. The only one that can save is God. Yet this malek, if he were really a mere angelic being, actually saved one small hamlet bringing salvation to it by honoring Lot ‘s request! How could this be as it violates Yahweh ‘s words that he was going to destroy all the cities on the plains (
Deut 29:23 and Gen 18:17-32)?
The Malek speaking is Yahweh the Son as it is through Him salvation comes. The bible also tells us that the Arm of the Lord brings salvation. How could the two Maleks say they were going to destroy this area and
then one decides to provide safe haven to Lot of his own volition unless these two Maleks were in reality both Son and Spirit the
Faces, Presences, Arms of the Lord? Only to whom has the authority to do this as taught from the pages of the Bible!
Again By Who's Authority?
Lastly, If that is not enough for you, in verse 18 Lots uses adoni - translated as lords (plural) to address the two messengers then uses singular grammar forms of
your and sight addressing the two in verse 19. This is interesting for the mere implications it raises addressing two as one. What does the Bible say? The opinions of men quoting men meaning nothing what does the bible say to you?
These were not angelic brings acting by proxy for God. Where in the bible does the Yahweh speaking in Genesis 18 grant such representation? Why does the bible declare that God will not share his Glory with another and then share His glory of salvation as well as exercising Judgment with another in Genesis 19?
Just for the critics? Or maybe The Lord is testing the critics to see if they ‘ll choose His ways over the ways of man!
Look again at verses 21 and 22 - Several important points here: Gen 18:20-33 Yahweh says He will destroy the cities on the plains.
In Gen 19:21-22 you have a malek (Messenger) granting a request that only God can grant and decide on (evidenced by Ex 33:19, Rom 9:15-16). Then stating that He can do nothing (referring to the maleks together destroying these cities) until Lot reaches safety. Again, this is not an angelic being doing the talking.
The malek that spoke, not as an angelic representative would with the standard
the Lord says but as the originator of authority to grant safe haven (now) as well as destroy as the very grammar of the text implies!
A mere representative taking the initiative to alter God's own plans of destruction by rescuing and placing Lot in the small city of Zoar so it is also saved is beyond all mere stretches of the imagination as its constitutes no less than open rebellion against God by a created being!
Later, King Saul was one such a representative sent on a task and God did not grant him the luxury of the same kind latitude that the critics impose upon their belief that these maleks were mere angelic representatives authorized to change God's plans.
1 Sam 15:2-28. Who is right the bible or men?
Genesis 19:21, He said to him, "Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. ESV
Only God himself can do such a thing. In fact,
2 Peter 2:4,7,9 tells us plainly that God himself delivered Lot and company! How, by the Son and the Holy Spirit. What are their tasks under the New Covenant? (Eph 2:3-5)
Who sent the Rain?
In Numbers 12:8 the Lord tells that Moses beheld His Form. Moses, as the writer of the first five books of the bible writes of this Form in Trinitarian terms as one God in three distinct persons remaining forever one Lord. He revels this in Genesis chapters 18 and 19. The internal contextual flow and evidence within these chapters show that there are three persons represented in the theophany form of three men.
There is enough detailed evidence contained in Genesis 18 and 19 that lines up elsewhere in the bible so that the interpretation of Genesis 19:24 removes all doubt that all three persons of the Trinity were indeed involved in destroying the cities on the plains. Look again at verse 24 with the added details and word meaning emphasized.
Genesis 19: 23-25[/b], The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar. 24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. ESV
Here is how the verse 24 reads applying what we have learned so far about each person of the Godhead being named Yahweh, the Panim ‘s (Faces) of Yahweh, and Malek Yahweh:
Genesis 19: 24, Then the Lord (Yahweh the Son and Spirit) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord (Yahweh the Father) out of heaven (The Father's dwelling Place far above us beyond even the visible universe and sky) 25 And he (the Father) overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants in these cities, and everything that grew on the groundESV
Critics of the Trinity almost every time attempt to smugly explain away any Trinitarian meaning from verse 24 by citing a
Hebrew idiom argument." This critique basically states that when one person's name is used twice in a sentence for no particular reason, or grammar form, it is used to simply contrast the earth and sky, or whatever is convenient, so that the name that is mentioned twice in such manner as in verse 24 is just an idiomatic expression and nothing to take too seriously oh poo poo and yawn.
Answering the Genesis 19:24 Hebrew Idiom Objection
This objection is based solely on the wisdom and writings of men and comes not from the bible. In fact, this idiom used for Yahweh being mentioned twice when calling fire from heaven is not used as evidenced in
1 Chronicles 21:26 or Job 1:16. Neither was this idiom used in
1 Kings 18:38 in its most grammatically apt use when God sent fire from heaven (verse 38). Elijah did not call fire from heaven as a representative either (verse 24, 36-37 note also the thrice dousing of water in verse 34).
In fact the very Hebrew grammar used in Genesis 19:13 contradicts the critic ‘s Hebrew Idiom argument. The personal pronoun 'we ‘ describes the two men working as one on a task. The word phrase translated '
are going to destroy in the NIV or '
will destroy in NKJV or 'are
destroying' in the YLT versions is a Hebrew word written in the Hiphil (written in the plural Hiphil Participle form in vs 24).
The Hiphil used here in verse 13 is a verbal adjective in the active voice indicating
continued causative action - coming from the personal pronoun - we. In other words the - we - mentioned in verse 13 will do the destroying!
If the
we who are on the ground
will do the destroying as evidenced from verse 13. Then how could Yahweh have done so from His Place in heaven without this being a contradiction? Critics would like to say, they acted on God's authority and therefore there is no contradiction.
That may sound nice but the name Yahweh is mentioned twice for a reason and it is not to express earth and sky or some idiomatic expression. It is telling us that the Lord God, Father Son, and Holy Spirit, together destroyed these cites as a theophany of three men. This way, there is no contradiction.
Even more amazing is the word Panim used in verse 13 in a its plural (dual) form as well as with the Construct. What the plural (dual) form of Panim used here means is that the word translated 'Face or Presence 'could have.' Next, the Hebrew Construct is how we get the word '
of translated. The Construct form denotes 'belonging too ‘ as - of someone/something used in a wide array of usages.
Also, check this out, there is another word not translated in verse 13. It is the Hebrew word 'eith (looks like Strong's 853 see TWOT 186). Strongs defines eith as being “used in a demonstrative sense of entity; properly self (but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely) Not normally translated in English.
Theological Wordbook Old Testament (TWOT -186) states that, the prevailing view is that 'et' was originally a noun meaning essence, substance, self, a significance which it subsequently lost in the historical development of the language.
Et, eith, is used twice in verse 13, once after 'destroy' and before the word 'Panim.' Both are used as individual unattached words! Check out this expanded translation of Gen 19:13 from my Hebrew studies and check this out own your own as well if you don ‘t trust me:
Gen 19:13: “For we (Son and Holy Spirit) are going to destroy (plural Hiphil Participle) (eith - the essence of selves in) this place, because the renowning howl of them has grown greatly powerful before (eith used to highlight/ connect to the 'We' in the text reads) WE Faces (Panim (Son and Holy Spirit) of Yahweh (the Father), and Yahweh (the Father) has sent us to destroy it. Author's Expanded Translation from personal Hebrew studies notes
The Bible does disprove this 'Hebrew Idiom argument' used often solely to discredit
Genesis 19:24. It is a work of men bent on denying the Form that God chose to reveal himself! Now let's recap.
Summery
In
Genesis 18:30-33 Yahweh the Father's will was to destroy the cities on the plain. In verse 33, Yahweh the Father stayed and spoke with Abraham returning to His Place. The Bible provides overwhelming evidence that the Father's Place is in heaven proving that He did not personally go to Sodom but instead waited in Heaven until the Son and Holy Spirit executed Judgment properly in accord of His perfect standards of justice that leaves no stone unturned.
We saw from chapter 19 how the two Messengers were theophanies of the Son and Holy Spirit appearing as distinct men to destroy the lands, rescued Lot, and when all was ready they exercised judgment in agreement with the Father. Then, as one, (echaud) they used brimstone and fire to destroy this geographic area. This is brought out in verse 24:
Genesis 19:24, Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur (See it yet?) and fire from Yahweh out of heaven. ESV
In Genesis 19:24 we see, the theophany of Son and Holy Spirit, appearing as two men raining on Sodom and Gomorrah Brimstone (sulfur) while Fire came from Yahweh (the Father) out of heaven where His Place is. You not only have a threefold witness being revealed against the cities, you also have the text stating grammatically something very profound as well.
Genesis 19:24 from the JPS reads: Then the LORD (Yahweh) caused to rain upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Yahweh) out of heaven"
See how the tri-nature of Yahweh is mentioned in verse 24? The first Yahweh refers to both the Son and Holy Spirit on the ground who rained down brimstone (sulfur) on the cities like they said in verse 13 while Yahweh (the Father) sent Fire from out of Heaven as He so often does (fire from sent from Heaven) proven within the pages of the bible!
Verse 24 actually identifies the two Maleks (messengers) as Yahweh. They said they would destroy the city in verse 13 as did the Father earlier in chapter 18. These two messengers were not angelic representatives because verse 24 clearly identifies them as Yahweh (the Son and Holy Spirit the Panim of the Father) who called forth the Brimstone.
Genesis 19:24: Then the Lord (Yahweh the Son and Holy Spirit) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord (Yahweh the Father) out of heaven. ESV
Other Evidences of this Event from the Bible
In Jeremiah 50:33 the Yahweh speaking speaks of Elohim (Plural noun) overthrowing the cities in
Verse 40,
“As when God (Elohim) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD (Yahweh); so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. JPS
In
Amos 4:2 identifies God as Adoni Elohim which indicates the Father speaking and in verse 11 you have the Father stating that Elohim (plural noun) overthrew (destroyed) the cities on the plains as well.
Amos 4:11-13, “I (the Yahweh speaking the Father) have overthrown some of you, as God (Elohim - note Genesis 19:13, 24) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a brand plucked out of the burning (note Gen 19:24, 'fire from heaven' and Lot's prior rescue and requesting a small city to remain in); yet have ye not returned unto Me, saith (Yahweh The Father) the LORD.
12 Therefore thus will I (the Father) do unto thee, O Israel (Wrestlers with God); because I (the Father) will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God (Elohim here refers to the Son and note how context connects to Zechariah 12:10), O Israel.
13 For, lo, He (The Son - note John 1:1-3, Heb 1:2, Eph 3:9, Col 1:16-17), that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth; (Yahweh the Son) the LORD, the God (Elohim) of hosts, is His name. JPS with added emphasis ‘s added for clarity of meaning.
Also notice the use of third person speech here as well and how it lines up with other parts of the bible perfectly in theme and contextual continuity. Is anything to difficult for Yahweh? The critics of the Trinity proudly proclaim, yes, but however, the bible does not agree with the critic's postulations.
Again take your time and read each section of post 17 slowly”
Notice of Copyright Post 17 is also under my Copyright 2009 Bryan W. Melvin Author of: A land Unknown: Hell's Dominion. Do not plagiarize! If cited please be kind and quote author. Posted here for use on the God and Science Form.
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