Evidence for God from Science

zoegirl,

re: “YOu keep throwing around choosing to believe as if it is as simple as throwing a switch on the wall.”

It has to work that way. You can't believe that something exists, AND at the same time believe that it doesn't. There has to be an instant (the throwing of a switch if you will) when the one state of mind changes to the other.


re: “I don't think we can simply switch somthing in our brains and automatically believe something when we haven't been convinced.”

When you have been convinced, it is too late to CHOOSE to believe because you already do. The only choosing possible is whether or not to take any actions that the belief may require.


re: “One moment I am skeptical of the existence of leprechauns and then next I *choose* t believe. As if that somehow that explains our decision to palce our fatih in Jesus, HIs identify, His actions, and HIs deity.”

I'm afraid that I don't see your point. Could you elaborate?

rstrats wrote: It has to work that way. You can't believe that something exists, AND at the same time believe that it doesn't. There has to be an instant (the throwing of a switch if you will) when the one state of mind changes to the other.

You are correct. If you already decided something does not exist, you've already made a choice. I can seriously say that I've already made my mind up that Leprachauns don't exist; I'm not open to the possibility of choosing to believe.

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:18). Either you believe or you don't, you have made the choice. Now; past, present, future: when does our choice in time come?

Edit: In my post further up I should've added that the "how" as a process doesn't matter. You could be asking that question on a neuroscience thread too. What matters is that we have the ability to make the choice, and we will have no excuse, in the end, regarding that choice. The Lord gave us the ability to do this, and it is our responsibility; the process behind it is secondary, at best.

Kurieuo,

re: “Ok, I am beginning to see more clearly now your position, and it runs much deeper than simply choosing to believe (correct me if I'm wrong).”

My position is that I would like to be able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. My position also is that I do not think that it is possible to do that. That's as deep as it goes.


re: “How is it possible for anyone to prove to you that they can choose to believe something if you adhere to determinism?“

I didn't know I was doing that. But how is that relevant? How would any view that I might have on determinism - and I'm not aware that I do - impact on someone's ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things? A person can prove to me - and of course I will have to be prepared to accept that they are being truthful and honest about it, which I am - by consciously CHOOSING to believe, in real time, something that they currently do not have a belief in. I suggested Leprechauns as an example since I thought that a person most likely didn't already believe in them.

Gman wrote:... We all believe in something and it usually it relies on our faith. So basically its just where we channel our faith to.

rstrats;
I think Gman has your answer.

Bill Wilson wrote: Man lives by faith and little else.

Whether we realize it or not, we all have faith, and what we believe is reliant on that faith.
Without faith that something can be true, we cannot will ourselves to believe it.
This cements it for me;

zoegirl wrote: I don't think we can simply switch something in our brains and automatically believe something when we haven't been convinced.

So... to believe in Christianity for example, we need some faith that it could possibly be truth.
From this point, we try to find what truths (if any) are espoused in any belief we look into.
Thus, we can't will ourselves (Jac3510's post) to believe something, even it is only because we want to believe it.

My position is that I would like to be able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. My position also is that I do not think that it is possible to do that. That's as deep as it goes.

Isn't that sentence a choice about belief. "I would like," and "I do not think......"
I mean come on. The statement, "I would like to be able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things," is in fact a chosing of beliefs. You are expressing a desire about what you want. (choice)

Are you familiar with the term "prevenient grace?"

cslewislover,

re: “...having an opinion about chili with beans or no beans is just a personal opinion.”

It's more than an opinion. I believe - am convinced - that chili with beans is an abomination to mankind. And no, I did not consciously CHOOSE to believe that. I also do not think that my subconscious was brainwashed by someone, but of course I can't be sure of that.

re: “If my son used this bizarre argument with me about something, like whether he could consciously believe it was good to do his chores or not, well, there would be some problems around the house.”

Specifically what “bizarre argument” are you referring to? Also, how is your comment regarding your son applicable to this discussion?


re: “How can one take your argument seriously with examples such as these?”

You asked for some examples of things that I believe - am convinced are true - and I listed some. I don't see why you disdain them insofar as this discussion is concerned.

rstrats wrote:
It's more than an opinion. I believe - am convinced - that chili with beans is an abomination to mankind.

Cross.eyed,

re: “Without faith that something can be true, we cannot will ourselves to believe it.”

How do you define “faith” and can it consciously be CHOSEN?

rstrats wrote:zoegirl,

re: “YOu keep throwing around choosing to believe as if it is as simple as throwing a switch on the wall.”

It has to work that way. You can't believe that something exists, AND at the same time believe that it doesn't. There has to be an instant (the throwing of a switch if you will) when the one state of mind changes to the other.

But the process of *seeing* the evidence and *understanding* the significance of that evidence can be a process. In teachign we call this cognitive dissonance, the concept of seeing something and puzzling over it and then reaching that "aha". I doubt anbody here just decided "hmm, I think i'll believe in God" or "hmmm, I am going to believe in GOd, even though I still have doubts",,,

rstrats" wrote: re: “I don't think we can simply switch somthing in our brains and automatically believe something when we haven't been convinced.”

When you have been convinced, it is too late to CHOOSE to believe because you already do. The only choosing possible is whether or not to take any actions that the belief may require.

Sure, I see that point, but why is this stressing you out?

Ok, but take your example of chile and beans. I doubt seriously that you just decided and choose to say I don't think chile should have beans. YOu probable had some chile with beans in it and decided that you did not like them or you didn't like the aftereffects, whatever. At that point where you are convinced tha chile shouldnt have beans, does that mae your deicsion or choice not to put beans in chile from that point on any less valid? In other words, you have decided you don't liek beans, you choose not to put hem in.

If you don't think you need CHrist or if you don't believe that He was who He said He was, then no I don't think you can simply "believe" as a choice. I think there has to be a change of heart, a shift in your persepctive, a felt need.

GOing back to the 3-D picture, you can choose to look further, you can choose to keep looking or you can choose to refuse to see it. And there, I think, some of the "conscious" choice comes ino play. Especially if what people are telling you is in the picture is something you *don't* want to see. If I don't *want* to see it then I can refuse to look further.

With regards to compassion there is some ability to become a better person. We can certainyl train ourselves to try to look for those in need. Total depravity is a misunderstood doctrine and is not the same idea as absolute depravity. BUt it also doesn't explain those moments when we *should* be compassioante and we aren't, when we *should* be kind and we aren't, when we *shouldn't* gossip and we do. Paul stated this well in ROmans.

cslewislover,

re: “If you already decided something does not exist, you've already made a choice. I can seriously say that I've already made my mind up that Leprachauns don't exist; I'm not open to the possibility of choosing to believe.”

In order for something to be considered a choice, there has to be at least 2 options to choose from. And each option has to be able to be selected. With regard to leprechauns, you say that you initially chose the “I don't believe they exist” option. I am now asking you to choose the “I believe they DO exist” option. If you can't select that option, then you don't have a choice in the matter.


re: “In my post further up I should've added that the 'how' as a process doesn't matter... What matters is that we have the ability to make the choice, and we will have no excuse, in the end, regarding that choice. The Lord gave us the ability to do this, and it is our responsibility; the process behind it is secondary, at best.”

I disagree. IF in the case of religious belief we have no excuse for not believing, and IF we have been given the ability to consciously choose to believe, then it would behoove us to find out the “how” of the process for doing that by making it our number one priority.

jlay.

re: “The statement, 'I would like to be able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things', is in fact a chosing of beliefs.”

It's a desire, not a belief. And I did not consciously CHOOSE to have it. It is just a feeling that I have.


re: 'Are you familiar with the term 'prevenient grace?'”


Not until you just mentioned it. I now know that it is a religious concept that a person wouldn't be prevented, because of sin, from communicating with the supreme being if they had a desire to do so.

rstrats wrote: In order for something to be considered a choice, there has to be at least 2 options to choose from. And each option has to be able to be selected. With regard to leprechauns, you say that you initially chose the “I don't believe they exist” option. I am now asking you to choose the “I believe they DO exist” option. If you can't select that option, then you don't have a choice in the matter.

I ALREADY had the choice. I made my choice in the past. No one would argue about having at least two options in order to make a choice; this is a nonargument since it is common knowledge and simply rational and all that, that at least two options are necessary. What two options DON'T you have?

I disagree. IF in the case of religious belief we have no excuse for not believing, and IF we have been given the ability to consciously choose to believe, then it would behoove us to find out the “how” of the process for doing that by making it our number one priority.

But the "how" is simply using our intellect/observational abilities (which people keep repeating here), and having an open mind and heart regarding inquiry.

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).

In His Word, here, God is providing that his invisible qualities can be clearly seen, and you are without excuse if you choose not to see them. How is that? It's a pretty amazing claim. God wouldn't say that we are without excuse about something unless we are capable of doing it. I'm beginning to wonder if your concern is more about the number of choices available, and not really "how" we make a choice (?).

zoegirl,

re: “In teachign we call this cognitive dissonance, the concept of seeing something and puzzling over it and then reaching that 'aha'.”

And when the “aha” is realized, it is too late to choose; its already happened.


re: “I doubt anbody here just decided 'hmm, I think i'll believe in God' or 'hmmm, I am going to believe in GOd, even though I still have doubts',,,”


But they could if beliefs can be consciously CHOSEN.


re: “Sure, I see that point, but why is this stressing you out?”

I don't know that I would characterize it that way, but if I were to (characterize it that way) I would guess that it would be due to frustration with not being able to articulate my request. I thought it a simple one, but apparently not so. I didn't anticipate all the grief I was going to get from you folks. I was merely looking for some help in the matter.


re: “Ok, but take your example of chile and beans. I doubt seriously that you just decided and choose to say I don't think chile should have beans. YOu probable had some chile with beans in it and decided that you did not like them or you didn't like the aftereffects,”

It would probably be more accurate to say that I realized that I didn't like beans. But I didn't consciously CHOOSE to not like them. I just didn't and don't.


re: “At that point where you are convinced tha chile shouldnt have beans...”

That was a long time ago so I can't say for sure, but it would seem reasonable to assume that it was at that point.


re: “ does that mae your deicsion or choice not to put beans in chile from that point on any less valid?”

Not as far as I am concerned.


re: “In other words, you have decided you don't liek beans, you choose not to put hem in.”

Change “decided” to “realized” and I agree. But I'm afraid I don't see your point.


re: “With regards to compassion there is some ability to become a better person. We can certainyl train ourselves to try to look for those in need. “

As I mentioned earlier, for the purpose of this topic I am not asking for suggestions on how to become a more compassionate person, only how to choose to believe that it is possible to become one.

It's called purposing in your heart.

I am still not grasping what you are talking about in referring to "choosing" to believe. Honestly, that is not the "it," that matters. Where the choosing matters is what you do with that belief/knowledge/info etc.

Jesus said "deny yourself, and follow me." It says that Peter, and Matthew quit what they were doing and chose to follow Him. I have no idea what their state of belief was at that point, but I can bet it was no where near what it was on the day they saw the risen Christ.

You mention compassion. But I think you confuse feeling compassion for being compassionate. Often times we must choose to do something despite our feelings to the contrary. Loving and praying for our enemies comes to mind. Jonah in Ninevah. I know for myself that I get frustrated when my feelings don't match what I know is right. But I've seen many times where choosing to obey what is right, produced the appropriate feelings.

“And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

“I doubt anbody here just decided 'hmm, I think i'll believe in God' or 'hmmm, I am going to believe in GOd, even though I still have doubts',,,”

Certainly not with that kind of flippance. So that takes us to the word believe. We know our english word can have some broad definitions. The greek word in John 3:18 and Acts 16:31 is probably quite deeper. To be persuaded or have confidence in. Trust is imperative in this definition. There are billions of Christians who can give you testimony to the time they chose to follow him. And it wasn't any flippant idea like you stated above. Although it could have been as simple. And from that day they can testify of the choices of belief in their faith walk.