Evidence for God from Science

Gman wrote:WConn.. It's like a bunch of "ah ha" moments... It's a process. It's not like you suddenly become transformed. Spiritually you are, but we also need to transform our minds by renewing it Romans 12:2.

The bunch of "ah ha" moments make more sense to me. I have had a few, just not that one big one that puts it all together. I think my heart wants to believe and I have had a lot of help from another moderator here, my mind and way of thinking seems to be the barrier. My mind is what puts it all together for me. I will continue to read and try to understand.

W

Have I ever told a lie? Yes, I have. As a kid I should have been a fiction writer, I have a marvelous imagination and could talk my way out of anything. I don't think as an adult that dishonesty is a major problem with me. I bend the truth on occasion which is in effect the same as telling a lie. I am not as yet the righteous type, but I am working on it. I have not been keeping God's laws as I should, but having read what I have read, I am not sure that man is capable of keeping God's laws to any realistic degree. Just my opinion.

1st.: time does not forgive sin. What you are doing is called trying to justify yourself.
This is not about you doing your best to keep God's laws. You and I and everyone have already failed at that. (Romans 3:23) Even if you kept God's law perfectly from now on, it would not make up for your past sins. If you stood before a judge accused of a serious crime, and you said, "but I've been really good most of my life, and that should make up for my crime." The judge will say that has no bearing on the crime you are on trial for. Gaining righteousness is not about trying to balance the scales of good and evil.

The simple truth if we follow the scriptures is this: What are you called if you lie? A liar. And this is how God sees you. If you have stolen, God sees you as a lying thief. Jesus said if you have anger without cause, then you have murder in your heart. (Matt. 5) In fact the bible teaches that even our thoughts will come under judgment. You see God is good and just. And it is because He is good and just that He will see to it that all murderers, theives and liars will be brought to justice. What kind of judge let's a criminal walk free without justice being served? Heaven is not a place of sinners, but of the righteous.

If God were to judge you according to His standard, would you be innocent or guilty? if we are honest with ourselves we know we would be guilty. You said the lies of your youth are too many to mention, and it is obvious that you don't give much thought to the way God sees lying. Here is what the Bible says. "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord," Prov. 12:22
In John 8 Jesus calls Satan the Father of lies.
"A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who tells lies will perish" (Prov. 19:9).
"There are six things the LORD hates — no, seven things He detests: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that kill the innocent, a heart that plots evil, feet that race to do wrong, a false witness who pours out lies, a person who sows discord among brothers." (Proverbs 6:16-19)

You need to see yourself in light of God's word. It is no wonder you have so many problems with God's Word. Many people have a problem discerning God's word because they are enemies of God in their minds by wicked works. (Col 1:21)

The Word of God when rightly divided is able to show us our sinful nature for what it really is. "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Heb. 4:12

I am not sure that man is capable of keeping God's laws to any realistic degree. Just my opinion.

That is good, because you agree with the bible. Rom. 3:10
But God does not grade on a curve. It is not OK to lie because I have lied, or everyone else has lied. That just means everyone is a liar. If everyone was a murderer would that somehow make murder less evil??

i hope you will give serious thought to these things and continue to examine how God sees you in light of what is revealed in His Word. It is imperative. What good does it do to admit to God you are a sinner if you really have no biblical concept of what a sinner really is, and who it is you have sinned against?

Loving and praying for you Wconn. Joel

WConn wrote:The bunch of "ah ha" moments make more sense to me. I have had a few, just not that one big one that puts it all together. I think my heart wants to believe and I have had a lot of help from another moderator here, my mind and way of thinking seems to be the barrier. My mind is what puts it all together for me. I will continue to read and try to understand.

W

I often see beliefs like being table legs.. If you had one leg on your table, it would probably fall very easily. But the more beliefs you hold on to, the more legs you have to hold your table up. This is how the table (or belief) becomes stronger.. But it is also a personal relationship with Him. There needs to be a channel of communication between you and God. Prayer is very important here...

I can't stress enough how important this decision is for you WConn.. It's more important than a career, a college degree, or all the money in the world.. Not only are we talking about the present, but we are also talking about your eternity here.. I think it's good you have questions. Keep it up..

Also, I just wanted to comment, God may see us as sinners.. But God also died for use sinners, He loved us enough to die for us... And if we accept His death on the cross for us, He sees us as His sons and daughters... Isn't that great?

jlay wrote:

Have I ever told a lie? Yes, I have. As a kid I should have been a fiction writer, I have a marvelous imagination and could talk my way out of anything. I don't think as an adult that dishonesty is a major problem with me. I bend the truth on occasion which is in effect the same as telling a lie. I am not as yet the righteous type, but I am working on it. I have not been keeping God's laws as I should, but having read what I have read, I am not sure that man is capable of keeping God's laws to any realistic degree. Just my opinion.

1st.: time does not forgive sin. What you are doing is called trying to justify yourself.
This is not about you doing your best to keep God's laws. You and I and everyone have already failed at that. (Romans 3:23) Even if you kept God's law perfectly from now on, it would not make up for your past sins. If you stood before a judge accused of a serious crime, and you said, "but I've been really good most of my life, and that should make up for my crime." The judge will say that has no bearing on the crime you are on trial for. Gaining righteousness is not about trying to balance the scales of good and evil.

The simple truth if we follow the scriptures is this: What are you called if you lie? A liar. And this is how God sees you. If you have stolen, God sees you as a lying thief. Jesus said if you have anger without cause, then you have murder in your heart. (Matt. 5) In fact the bible teaches that even our thoughts will come under judgment. You see God is good and just. And it is because He is good and just that He will see to it that all murderers, theives and liars will be brought to justice. What kind of judge let's a criminal walk free without justice being served? Heaven is not a place of sinners, but of the righteous.

If God were to judge you according to His standard, would you be innocent or guilty? if we are honest with ourselves we know we would be guilty. You said the lies of your youth are too many to mention, and it is obvious that you don't give much thought to the way God sees lying. Here is what the Bible says. "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord," Prov. 12:22
In John 8 Jesus calls Satan the Father of lies.
"A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who tells lies will perish" (Prov. 19:9).
"There are six things the LORD hates — no, seven things He detests: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that kill the innocent, a heart that plots evil, feet that race to do wrong, a false witness who pours out lies, a person who sows discord among brothers." (Proverbs 6:16-19)

You need to see yourself in light of God's word. It is no wonder you have so many problems with God's Word. Many people have a problem discerning God's word because they are enemies of God in their minds by wicked works. (Col 1:21)

The Word of God when rightly divided is able to show us our sinful nature for what it really is. "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Heb. 4:12

I am not sure that man is capable of keeping God's laws to any realistic degree. Just my opinion.

That is good, because you agree with the bible. Rom. 3:10
But God does not grade on a curve. It is not OK to lie because I have lied, or everyone else has lied. That just means everyone is a liar. If everyone was a murderer would that somehow make murder less evil??

i hope you will give serious thought to these things and continue to examine how God sees you in light of what is revealed in His Word. It is imperative. What good does it do to admit to God you are a sinner if you really have no biblical concept of what a sinner really is, and who it is you have sinned against?

Loving and praying for you Wconn. Joel

How exactly did I try to justify myself? I don't believe I did that at all, I acknowledged that I have lied and if a lie is a sin then I am a sinner, am I not? If murder and robbery and other things are sins they the all encompassing definition is "sinner" and we are all to some degree sinners.

You said, " It is no wonder you have so many problems with God's Word. Many people have a problem discerning God's word because they are enemies of God in their minds by wicked works. (Col 1:21)" It would appear to me that you are a bit judgmental here my friend. I would have no problem with GOD's word but I have problems with agreeing that some parts of the Bible are God's word. MY suspicion is that man may have injected some of his thoughts which might not be in agreement with God's. If you have been following my posts you understand what I mean and where I am coming from.

I do agree that it's virtually impossible for any of us to follow exactly, that which is directed by the bible. That puts us all in a pickle does it not?

I continue to read and learn and try to understand. It would appear to me that some respondents to my posts have decided that I should just accept it on the surface and that's it....no questions asked.

W

Gman wrote:

WConn wrote:The bunch of "ah ha" moments make more sense to me. I have had a few, just not that one big one that puts it all together. I think my heart wants to believe and I have had a lot of help from another moderator here, my mind and way of thinking seems to be the barrier. My mind is what puts it all together for me. I will continue to read and try to understand.

W

I often see beliefs like being table legs.. If you had one leg on your table, it would probably fall very easily. But the more beliefs you hold on to, the more legs you have to hold your table up. This is how the table (or belief) becomes stronger.. But it is also a personal relationship with Him. There needs to be a channel of communication between you and God. Prayer is very important here...

I can't stress enough how important this decision is for you WConn.. It's more important than a career, a college degree, or all the money in the world.. Not only are we talking about the present, but we are also talking about your eternity here.. I think it's good you have questions. Keep it up..

Also, I just wanted to comment, God may see us as sinners.. But God also died for use sinners, He loved us enough to die for us... And if we accept His death on the cross for us, He sees us as His sons and daughters... Isn't that great?

Yes Gman, I agree. The more legs on the table, the more stable the table. I am in the process of accomplishing what you and many others here have accomplished. It would appear to me that some, as I have mentioned before, feel that I should just accept it and that's it. I need more than that, I need to be sure. When I am, I will be, if you know what I mean

W

WConn wrote:Yes Gman, I agree. The more legs on the table, the more stable the table. I am in the process of accomplishing what you and many others here have accomplished. It would appear to me that some, as I have mentioned before, feel that I should just accept it and that's it. I need more than that, I need to be sure. When I am, I will be, if you know what I mean

W

Everybody comes to faith in God in different ways.. For some it may be an emotional connection, some more intellectual, for others they may need physical evidence... Like the disciple Thomas. He wouldn't believe unless he was able to touch the side of Jesus after the resurrection John 20:25. As long as you are truly seeking, then I have no problems with it.. Take your time...

Blessings to you..

Gman wrote:

WConn wrote:Yes Gman, I agree. The more legs on the table, the more stable the table. I am in the process of accomplishing what you and many others here have accomplished. It would appear to me that some, as I have mentioned before, feel that I should just accept it and that's it. I need more than that, I need to be sure. When I am, I will be, if you know what I mean

W

Everybody comes to faith in God in different ways.. For some it may be an emotional connection, some more intellectual, for others they may need physical evidence... Like the disciple Thomas. He wouldn't believe unless he was able to touch the side of Jesus after the resurrection John 20:25. As long as you are truly seeking, then I have no problems with it.. Take your time...

Blessings to you..

Thank you Gman, I appreciate the encouragement. Some apparently feel that it should happen for me overnight. Nothing ever comes easy for me but I do appreciate the encouragement and the help I have received here. CSLewislolver has been most helpful also and I appreciate her guidance and level head.

W

That puts us all in a pickle does it not?

Exactly! Amen!!

How exactly did I try to justify myself?

you said that as an adult, dishonesty is not a major problem for you. This is a way of saying, "i'm better than I used to be," or, "I'm not as bad as some people."

It would appear to me that you are a bit judgmental here my friend.

If being judgmental means relying on the Word of God to show a sinner the way to salvation then I am guilty. i simply have provided you some scriptures and insights to what the Bible says about you and I. And also to help you see why many people have the some (not all) of the objections they do with the Bible. the Bible says that because of our sin we can't beleive. We can't come to God unless He draws us to Himself. Without God acting and injecting Himself into our lives we are wholly incabable of finding Him or knowing truth. That in fact our minds are at enmity with God. Listen to what Paul wrote in Romans 8
"the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. (Did you hear that? It can't) Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

It would appear to me that some respondents to my posts have decided that I should just accept it on the surface and that's it

I would hope not. You can't accept the cure of Christ till you understand your sickness of sin. Even if you have come to an intellectual belief that the bible is true doesn't mean you have come to a saving faith. Saving faith is not an intellectual assent. Although there is no question that the intellect is a part of it. If you have specific objections to why the bible is not God's word continue to ask specific questions. This board is replete with information answering the questions you have. I am merely addressing another aspect. Your conscience.

I'll keep my further dialog with you in a pmail from here on regarding this issue. I hope this helps. Loving and praying for you Wconn.

Everybody comes to faith in God in different ways..

Jesus is THE WAY, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Him. I understand that God works in all different circumstances, but there is one God, one Bible and one cross. One WAY.

Jlay,

You said " We can't come to God unless He draws us to Himself. Without God acting and injecting Himself into our lives we are wholly incabable of finding Him or knowing truth. That in fact our minds are at enmity with God. Listen to what Paul wrote in Romans 8
"the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. (Did you hear that? It can't) Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

I don't think I am at enmity with God at all. I am questioning, but not hostile or denial. I believe in God, there are certain aspects of christianity that I am troubled with but I am trying as I have said.

Are you then saying I am hopeless? If God has not drawn me to him? I still sin, I know this, I am not perfect or sinless yet nor do I know anyone who truly is. A very dear friend who used to profess her faith in God showed me day in and day out that she was not without sin. How do I know we I am draw to God or being drawn to God by God? I am going to take a break from the bible for a day or two, I try to go back and read the parts that disturb me, very difficult.

W

check your mail.

WConn wrote:Are you then saying I am hopeless? If God has not drawn me to him? I still sin, I know this, I am not perfect or sinless yet nor do I know anyone who truly is. A very dear friend who used to profess her faith in God showed me day in and day out that she was not without sin. How do I know we I am draw to God or being drawn to God by God? I am going to take a break from the bible for a day or two, I try to go back and read the parts that disturb me, very difficult.

W

WConn.. Let's keep the discussion open to everyone. No need to keep any secrets here.. Your very presence here shows that God is probably working in you. He may draw us to him, but we also need to confess to Him that He is Lord of our lives Romans 10:9-13. God offers his salvation to everyone 1 Timothy 2:4, but we must also by our freedom of will turn to Him. He doesn't make robots..

Gman wrote:

WConn wrote:Are you then saying I am hopeless? If God has not drawn me to him? I still sin, I know this, I am not perfect or sinless yet nor do I know anyone who truly is. A very dear friend who used to profess her faith in God showed me day in and day out that she was not without sin. How do I know we I am draw to God or being drawn to God by God? I am going to take a break from the bible for a day or two, I try to go back and read the parts that disturb me, very difficult.

W

WConn.. Let's keep the discussion open to everyone. No need to keep any secrets here.. Your very presence here shows that God is probably working in you. He may draw us to him, but we also need to confess to Him that He is Lord of our lives Romans 10:9-13. God offers his salvation to everyone 1 Timothy 2:4, but we must also by our freedom of will turn to Him. He doesn't make robots..

I'm fine with keeping it open to everyone Gman. I hope God is working in me and ON me. As I said, I believe in God, I do have some questions about the Bible. I have read a number of other sites and interestingly there is some disagreement from place to place. I am working on what I believe and I thank you and CSLewislover for your help and support.

W