Evidence for God from Science

I'll pop in my repsonses in your post. Please understand that I am going to answer your questions very candidly without any fluff.

Aryk wrote:I have been so-called 'born-again' for over twenty years and have always struggled with this. I write this post not as a means to debate but because I am hoping for some sort of therapy/epiphany on this subject.

Here is what the Bible would have us believe: God loves us. All of us. So much so that he would endure terrible agonies in order to redeem our sinful selves back to Him. However, we need to claim his salvation in order to be redeemed. It is evident that the vast majority of mankind will, for various reasons, never use their eternal life coupon and therefore will not be saved. Those who will not be saved will be those who shook their fist at the God who made them, and said, no thanks, I'll do it may way. Therefore, eternal torment in the Lake of Fire awaits them. Baking along with Stalin, Hitler and hopefully Barry Manilow will be the little girl who was sexually abused when she was young, turned to drugs and prostitution and later died of AIDS. Barbecuing beside her and Ghandi will be the Vietnamese fisherman that rose early in the morning to provide for his family, loved and cared for his children, helped his village and prayed earnestly to his gods in humble ignorance. With them will be billions of others that weren't precisely murderers or fornicators or necromancers - just ignorant defendants too stupid to hire themselves a good lawyer: Jesus.

First off, i would say this demonstrates a very flippant attitude towards the truth of the matter.
No one is going to hell because they were ignorant of Christ. they will go because they have rejected the light that God has placed within them, and because of the crimes they have committed against a Holy God. I am greatly perpelxed at how people think there should be a free pass on the wages of sin, if your mom put your shoes on too tight as a child. There are plenty of people who had terrible child hoods who come to Christ. Just as there are those who had every opportunity afforded them, and still reject Christ.

So an infinitesimal minority win the prize and the vast majority burn forever - and this is GOOD NEWS? It isn't a coupon, and it isn't some silly contest. God desires that ALL would come to repentance. ALL!! I am not disputing that hell is real. No. You are just very confused as to Why it is real. Perhaps this is precisely how God has ordained things to suit his mysterious purposes. However, if this is the case then it is monstrous. If this is His plan then it is an abject failure. To call a being into existence merely for the purpose of torturing them eternally is sadist. In fact, it is evil. None of us asked to exist. Would any of us breed our dogs with the foreknowledge that the offspring would be so grossly offensive to us, that we would want to place the puppy in the microwave on high while simultaneously keeping them alive through a respirator so that they could feel the heat interminably? It would make Michael Vick look like a PETA member. But of course God doesn't send anyone to Hell!! But He did create it. He did set up the Rules. He did call these people into existence with the knowledge that they were going to burn forever. Why? Trying to compare the Holy, righteous, creator to Michael Vick shows what a distorted, non-biblical view you have of God, Christ, and the cross. You attempt to judge the actions of God, yet condemn the one who is the only one qualified to judge.

I've always wondered how a third of the Angels in heaven could have joined Lucifer and rebelled against God, as it says in Ezekiel. The Bible describes myriads of angels so I assume a third would be a significant amount. These are angels that had direct access to Almighty God, that knew him in ways that we men cannot. Yet they rebelled. Why? When I consider this barbarous idea of Salvation and Torture I experience an inkling. I know how that sounds. Don't misunderstand, I hate Satan. This schizophrenic depiction of a Loving / Hating God is still preferable to a completely vile devil. But who is this God? What is He really about? How does one reconcile a loving God with this business? Furthermore where is the Joy? These ideas don't make me joyful. The joy is found in rightly dividing the Word of truth, which you have obviously failed to do. It is very obvious you do not have a biblical perspective of the sinful depravity of your own soul contrasted with the incomparable, infinate holiness of God, and at what odds they are with each other. I hate the thought that untold multitudes are going to suffer. Really? So what are you doing about it? It's a bummer. I KNOW that Jesus is more compassionate than I. He hates it even more. Couldn't He devise a means of satisfying His justice and still allowing mercy? Yes! It's called the cross. A third way, so to speak, instead of this binary heaven/hell business. Not sure that Purgatory is Biblical but man it's not a bad idea considering the Evangelical alternative.
God's love and hate is not some roller coaster of emotion like humans have. God always hates evil, and always loves. They are not mutually exclusive.

I've ranted long enough. Someone put me out of my misery.

What are you doing to see that others don't die about from the gift of salvation?

Eternal hell punishment is a lie.
Robert Wheeler Todd

bobwtodd wrote:Eternal hell punishment is a lie.
Robert Wheeler Todd

Welcome to the board Bob.

Now please show us proof of your assertion.

Thanks,

Your friendly moderator klown

I am not the one to prove hell is false. That will be God's job in due time for those who teach that lie
If one REALLY wants to know now, Google the topic and read, read, read. The fact is that most people could care less if it is real or not. Most traditional pastors are going there.

bobwtodd wrote:I am not the one to prove hell is false. That will be God's job in due time for those who teach that lie
If one REALLY wants to know now, Google the topic and read, read, read. The fact is that most people could care less if it is real or not. Most traditional pastors are going there.

Sorry Bob, that's not how it works here. This is a discussion board. And we have rules we try to abide by here. And one rule is that someone can't assert something without proof to baçk it up. You're not the first person who claims to be a believer, who denies hell. Make an argument from scripture for why you believe there is no eternal punishment. You must have some reason why you believe that, right?

Well, let's discuss it.

It is obvious that the view that most of humanity are destined to spend eternity in misery in hell cannot be reconciled with those scriptures which predict restoration for all; yet the word 'hell' occurs thirty one times in the Old Testament and twenty two times in the New Testament in the Authorized Version (King James). This one English term has been made to represent the Hebrew 'sheol' and the three Greek words 'hades', 'gehenna' and 'tartarus'.

We must now enquire whether these four terms mean the same, and whether 'hell' in its modern meaning fits any of them.

'Hell' is the noun form of the old Anglo-Saxon verb 'hele' which meant to hide, conceal, or bury something. In one of his poems Chaucer wrote: 'To hide and hele thing', meaning to conceal them. In its old English significance 'hell' was an appropriate rendering of the Greek 'hades' which means the unseen or imperceptible and since the Septuagint Greek translation of the Old Testament books produced by seventy two Hellenists (Greek speaking Jews) about two centuries B. C., consistently translates 'sheol' with the word 'hades', we must conclude that these terms are synonymous. Since both invariably refer to the grave or the condition of humans between death and resurrection, or to a state akin to death (Jonah 2:2-5), we can find no more appropriate English term than 'hell' provided we keep to its ORIGINAL MEANING.

The following are a few of the many passages of scripture which prove that 'sheol' or 'hades' is the grave or the state of the dead, not of living humans in suffering.

Gen. 37:35 tells us that Jacob believed Joseph to be there and expected to go there himself. 'I will go down to the grave (sheol) unto my son mourning'. Compare Gen. 42:38, 44:29 and 31, 1Sam. 2:6, 'The Lord bringeth down to the grave (sheol) and bringeth up'. Job longed to go to sheol to rest or sleep till the resurrection, Job 14:12, 13. 'So man lieth down and riseth not till the heavens be no more (cf. Rev. 20:11); they shall not awake nor be raised out of their sleep. Oh that Thow wouldest hide me in sheol, that Thow wouldest keep me secret until Thy wrath be past'. In chapter three verses eleven to twenty two Job bewailed his birth claiming that life's troubles made him and others wish for the rest that death would bring. Ecclesiasties 9:10 confirms Job's view. 'There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in sheol'. Neither is God remembered there. Isaiah 38:18: 'For sheol cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee.

The anger of God follows wickedness to the grave. Deut. 32:22: 'It burneth unto the lowest sheol (R. V. pit), devoureth the earth... and setteth on fire the foundations of the mountains'.

The following references indicate that both the wicked and righteous go into the grave and the death state from which only God's power can bring release: Psa. 9:17 (The wicked); Psa. 16:10 and Acts 2:27 and 31 (Our Lord); Psa. 55:15, Psa. 139:8, Prov. 15:11, Amos 9:2, Rev. 1:18 (God is in charge there), Jonah 2:2 (Probably figurative, the fish's interior being like the grave), Rev. 20:13 (Recovery from hades), Rev. 20:14. When death ceases to operate hell (hades) too is to pass away, 1Cor. 15:54.

The above passages present convincing evidence that scripture and our own observations agree that with death come the cessation of consciousness (Biblical sleep of death) and the dissolution of the personality in the unseen till resurrection.

The reference to hades in the parable of Luke 16, accords with the scriptures throughout. These teach that no dead person can 'lift up his eyes' apart from resurrection which for the wicked leads on to chastening (basanos verse 23) producing beneficial results -- Dives' concern for his brothers (vs 27, 28).

It should particularly be noted that there is nothing whatever in the scriptures quoted above to suggest that sheol, hades, or hell is a place or condition of endless pain or torture.

'Tartarus' is mentioned once only, 2Pet. 2:4, and then in the verbal form -- to cast down to the abode of rebellious spirits. Certainly the Authorized Version calls this 'hell', but as no humans are ever said to be there and Jude verse 6 indicates that the spirits are there restrained by invisible (aidios) bonds UNTIL the judgement day, to include this term 'tartarus' under the word 'hell' is clearly a mistranslation of the Greek which should be rendered 'cast down to Tartarus'.

Gehenna must now claim our attention. The thirteen references to it in the Hebrew scriptures show it to be a valley on the west and south-west sides of Jerusalem where idolatrous and abominable human sacrifices were offered to Molech the fire god. (2Kings 23:10, 2Chron. 28:306, Jer. 7:31 and 32: 35). In fulfillment of centuries past prophecy (1Kings 13:2) good King Josiah made a sweeping reformation clearing away the alters, groves, images and high places (2Chron. 34:3-5). In Jer. 7:32 and 33 we find the prediction of a future defilement of this valley. Secular historians record that the site became the cesspool and a repository of the filth of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning incessantly and where worms perpetually bred in the decaying corpses of criminals.

Isaiah 66:20, 23, 24 predicted a future day of restoration for Israel, when the bodies of transgressors would be deposited in this valley to become a warning of the summary judgement to be meted out to evil doers (cf. Matt. 5:29 and 30).

Of the seven New Testament references to gehenna, all contained in the teaching concerning the predicted kingdom to be restored to Israel, not one makes any reference to endless punishment, nor can one see how fire or worms could affect the soul, or spirit, or anything other than the carcasses of evil doers as Isaiah said it would. Also since our Lord confined His preaching to the land and people of Israel (Matt. 10:5) and forbade His apostles to go to others, it is evident that His references to this local spot and its associations do not apply to humanity at large. We therefor urge that 'gehenna' should be transliterated to English versions and thus linked up with the Hebrew passages from which the name arose. It certainly is not synonymous with hades or sheol, so should not be included under the term 'hell'.

Some expositors and preachers increase confusion by adding 'the bottomless pit' and 'the lake of fire' though these are not in English versions rendered 'hell'. The result is that while many believers find the theories about endless damnation in hell fire contradictory to the scripture revelation of our God's character, purpose and activity, they lack the means to check His word in the original languages, so feel obliged to believe what others have taught them about a hell of endless, and therefore purposeless and futile suffering, not realizing that such an idea has no place in the revelation of God's gracious attitude and purpose for mankind.

Bob, you entirely copied this http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_time_eternity_14.htm.

Are you author of the text?

1over137 wrote:Bob, you entirely copied this http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_time_eternity_14.htm.

Are you author of the text?

Oh no!!! I feel the wrath of Queen Hana coming on...

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:Bob, you entirely copied this http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_time_eternity_14.htm.

Are you author of the text?

Oh no!!! I feel the wrath of Queen Hana coming on...

Do not make monster from me.

Bobwtodd,

Apparently we need a refresher course in board etiquette 101.

Copy and pasting from links without linking the page.

When I said, "Well, let's discuss it", I didn't mean, "let's copy and paste text from a website".

RickD wrote:Bobwtodd,

Apparently we need a refresher course in board etiquette 101.

Copy and pasting from links without linking the page.

When I said, "Well, let's discuss it", I didn't mean, "let's copy and paste text from a website".

Looks like we have a clown here, eh?

Revelation 20:14, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire..."
According to this hell is flammable, otherwise why would it be cast there? To put the fire out or to be consumed?

So hell is not so everlasting a some imagine. Ezekiel 28:18 Says that Satan will be bought down to ashes. Another place says "the wicked shall be ashes under your feet." Ashes is what you get when the fire is out.

The doctrine of hell as an everlasting place of burning is pagan, and even Jesus used this popular concept in His parable with Lazarus sitting on Abram's lap. Try not to think about every saved person sitting on his lap, countless in number.

Someone said that there is an impassable gap between heaven and hell, but according to this parable, you can have a chat with your suffering never dying buddies.

Ezekiel says that "the soul that sinneth, it shall surely die"

But another satanic doctrine helps here - "and the serpent said, you shall surely NOT die, but will be as gods..." Genesis 3:4,5

Everlasting souls - courtesy of Satan, and everlasting hell - courtesy of paganism.

However, if the Bible talks about "everlasting" fire, which it does, then those flames would be sufficient to put an end to wickedness "leaving them neither root or branch" Don't you think?

God says "you will die if you disobey." Satan says "no you don't."

God sent His son to die for us. Satan says Jesus was faking it, "He did not really die, but His soul lived on and had a party."

God says life is life and death is not life, either we have everlasting life or an everlasting death - they will never come up again. If you are dead forever...can you be tortured?

Satan says, life is poor, but death a gateway to heaven! When you die your soul floats up to a light (and smoke and mirrors).

God says heaven is real for real "resurrected" people. Satan says "it is a disconnected off beat ghost land, you are not really resurrected, but you come up as an everlasting ghost!"

If God "has no pleasure in the death of the wicked" it means it hurts Him.

But you know, if you want to interpret the Bible by pagan doctrines go ahead.

An overwhelming evidence from scripture against this false concept of hell, has already been posted by many contributors.

Is there a day of judgment and total destruction? unfortunately... and fortunately yes.

so Starhunter, from what I gather, you are saying, is that Jesus is a false prophet for mentioning the absolute importance of avoiding hell?


Mat 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Mat 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Mat 5:30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Mat 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat 18:9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Mat 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Mat 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

Mark 9:45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,

Mark 9:47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,

Luke 12:5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Bible quotes from the NASB
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B. W.,

I think Starhunter is just saying hell isn't eternal. Not that hell doesn't exist.

RickD wrote:B. W.,

I think Starhunter is just saying hell isn't eternal. Not that hell doesn't exist.

Thanks Rick, I could not follow the line of reasoning very well. On one hand Starhunter seemed to be saying this or that...

So if Star is really not saying that eternal hell does not exist, what does he mean by Hell - does he mean annihilationism, instead of hell?

Inquiring minds would like to know... Starhunter
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