Evidence for God from Science

ageofknowledge wrote:

cslewislover wrote:You know what's funny, is that I'm not even sure what it means here by having "game." Lol, does the guy have a deer tied on the radiator of his lexus??

The simplest definition is that it means interfacing with the needs and the wants of a female appropriately to get her to want to do what you want her to do. It includes matching your behavior, word choices, dress, socialization values and mores, intellect, etc... to accomplish this result. In the worldy sense, "game" is used to accomplish a sexually immoral result. In the Christian sense. it is used to get the girl you want to marry.

But then you are manipulating her and presenting a false view of yourself. Both bad from a Christian perspective, and bad for a long-term relationship built on trust. There is always give-and-take, however; there is always sacrifice to do what the other person wants or needs. To me, that's a different thing than "game."

cslewislover wrote:

ageofknowledge wrote:

cslewislover wrote:You know what's funny, is that I'm not even sure what it means here by having "game." Lol, does the guy have a deer tied on the radiator of his lexus??

The simplest definition is that it means interfacing with the needs and the wants of a female appropriately to get her to want to do what you want her to do. It includes matching your behavior, word choices, dress, socialization values and mores, intellect, etc... to accomplish this result. In the worldy sense, "game" is used to accomplish a sexually immoral result. In the Christian sense. it is used to get the girl you want to marry.

But then you are manipulating her and presenting a false view of yourself. Both bad from a Christian perspective, and bad for a long-term relationship built on trust. There is always give-and-take, however; there is always sacrifice to do what the other person wants or needs. To me, that's a different thing than "game."

Not necessarily. The world does that to accomplish a sexually immoral end; however, a Christian young man might like everything about a girl at church, for example, including her friends and social circle and want to be a part of it. Walking up and spitting in their hand and saying "friends" like they learned on the farm in Arkansas or whatever isn't going to get the same result at a place like Saddleback Church as making the necessary changes to maximize one's chances of success both with that person and the social group they want to be a part of. It's OK to reinvent yourself into the person you want to be. It's also OK for men to learn how to systematically interface with women in a way that brings desirable results for them and visa versa. No sin need apply.

ageofknowledge wrote:Not necessarily. The world does that to accomplish a sexually immoral end; however, a Christian young man might like everything about a girl at church, for example, including her friends and social circle and want to be a part of it. Walking up and spitting in their hand and saying "friends" like they learned on the farm in Arkansas or whatever isn't going to get the same result at a place like Saddleback Church as making the necessary changes to maximize one's chances of success both with that person and the social group they want to be a part of. It's OK to reinvent yourself into the person you want to be.

I agree with that. We all need to change sometimes. The thing is, is it a permanent change for the good, or just a manipulation? Many a woman has gotten married to a guy, only to find out that they really got married to some other guy! And that happens with the opposite sex, too. If we do change, it needs to be a real change that will last. What you just said here is good.

cslewislover wrote:

ageofknowledge wrote:Not necessarily. The world does that to accomplish a sexually immoral end; however, a Christian young man might like everything about a girl at church, for example, including her friends and social circle and want to be a part of it. Walking up and spitting in their hand and saying "friends" like they learned on the farm in Arkansas or whatever isn't going to get the same result at a place like Saddleback Church as making the necessary changes to maximize one's chances of success both with that person and the social group they want to be a part of. It's OK to reinvent yourself into the person you want to be.

I agree with that. We all need to change sometimes. The thing is, is it a permanent change for the good, or just a manipulation? Many a woman has gotten married to a guy, only to find out that they really got married to some other guy! And that happens with the opposite sex, too. If we do change, it needs to be a real change that will last. What you just said here is good.

There would have to a real desire and commitment to change for the better to be valid. Manipulation to exploit people to satisfy one's own wants is evil. The first is good. The first is about changing yourself for more effective and desirable results. The second is evil. It is about manipulating people without changing yourself for the better. Sort of like the argument people use for a firearm. It is there. It can be used for good or evil.

And I wan't even gone for that long.... wow. So much to say...

nd925 wrote:Gabrielman, Read through 1 Corinthians 7, Paul gives the pros and cons of marriage vs being single. I wouldn't put so much pressure on yourself to find a wife. You're still very young. Get involved with singles functions at a church and that sort of thing. Form good solid friendships with both male and female. Be yourself. Talk to people, let people know that you exist, not in an obnoxious, draw attention to yourself manner of course. Be confident in God and yourself. If it is God's will for you, he will give you a bride.
Ladies that contributed to this thread, You have given Gabrielman some very good advice. I think that it coming from women really encouraged him and probably caused him to learn something.

First I want to thank nd925 I would like to thank you for your adivce too sir, it is very helpful. If you have anything else helpful to say I welcome all the advice I can get. I am at a critical point in my life and finding Christian, REAL Christian people who are being helpful is great.

ageofknowledge wrote:

Gabrielman wrote:

ageofknowledge wrote:Do you honestly think women view all men the same? Do you really believe they want a poor, shy, ugly, guy with poor socialization skills that does whatever they tell him to. They do not. They'll tell you all sorts of nonsense but they are wired a certain way biologically and will follow their biological programming. God made them that way. Learn their programming and how to interface with them in real life and you'll get better results. Forget about what they say. They do the opposite of what they say all the time. Have you never heard the expression "it is a woman's perogative to change her mind"?

Are you impying that I am a poor, shy, ugly, guy with poor socialization skills!? You really have no idea do you...? Meet me in person, that's all I have to say about that.
I do not do everything they tell me to do, espicaly if it conflicts with what God wants me to do. Furthermore you say what you did about women, but I have met some good ones with men that you described(poor,shy,ugly guys with poor socialization skills)... kinda kills that idea don't it. Here is where you need to seperate women from girls. The immature tend to act as such, but the more matture will not. Also God did not program them to be that way. If that were true then he programed men to follow their steryotype, which I do not. Many men say I make them look bad, that is not true, they make themselves look bad. One more thing, the "alpha male" as you put it is usually all talk, in my experience. I have met a lot of them, alpha males, and can honest in saying I do not believe they are on a path to heaven. I would rather walk a path to heaven to be with the father than be cast into hell for some girls. I only seek women, they are mature. Age doesn't define maturity, how you act for God does. You should note that not all women who turned me down were cruel, at times it was because they already had somebody I was unaware of. Re-think how you view women, because it is a desturctive path that can damage the soul.
You should know I came here for advice and friendship. I am at a point in my life where I need to think about some things and get some good Biblical insight, which you failed to provide. There is a lot about myself I am trying to deal with right now and would appriciate it if you did not leave anymore comments on this as I strongly dissagree with what you say. They are not what I need at this time. Please sek God on this. God bless!

No I'm not. I'm simply telling you how it is out there. You can be the best looking guy on the face of the earth with a great career and still act like the other. Like I said, don't read more into what I'm saying then what I'm actually saying.

The rest of the post is unrealistic nonsense imo. No offense. It won't get you where you want and need to be. God certainly did make women to respond in certain ways. It's hard wired into women just like men are hard wired in certain ways. I'm sSorry you feel otherwise but until you accept this reality and adjust to it, you're just throwing mud at the wall hoping some of it sticks.

I'm trying to help you not offend or hurt you. Maybe you need to be alone for awhile and heal first. I don't know if that's the case but I can certainly understand that. But if you want a girlfriend, and Christian girls are biologically wired like all girls everywhere, then you need to know their biological programming.. what moves them and interface appropriately. I'm not talking about sinning here. I'm talking about learning how to interface with them properly and getting yourself a girlfriend. This will be my last comment in this thread unless you request otherwise. Peace.

*sigh* Hard wired.... so you intend to tell me that none of us have free will? Is that what you imply? I am not the typical young male. Those around me know that. The "hardwireing" of a typical male is that when he sees a "hot" girl he will look at her in an inapropriate way as she walks by, my "friends" did that. They hated the fact that I do not, it is disrespectful to women. It may intrest you to know that I am very naieve when it comes to the sinning you refer to. (I am going on the assumption that you were implying... well you get it) I know nothing other than what I was taught in health class. I am not hardwierd to be a perve like most men would claim they are. I try to hold myself to a high standard in the way I treat all people and how I view them. Further more I am usually attracted to the "unsightly", as you put it. I interface with people in a Christian manner, including the girls. I also try to be myself, rather the man God wants me to be. I might also add that being alone right now is not the best choice for me... I tried that and it only hurt me more. Right now I need to find some good Christian friends. I just stopped talking with some "christians" who were my "friends" and they had the same mind set about women. (I.E. that they should be manipulated) Maybe you really aren't implying that, maybe I am wrong, but it is coming off as that. I have a lot of issues I need to deal with, things I need to talk about, things that no one would listen to me about. For too long I have been the one to listen and help, no one would do the same for me. So being alone is not a good thing for me right now.

cslewislover wrote:As far as looks, again, I actually tend to find a quirky aspect attractive - I mean something different in their face.

Same here, I like people who are different, not like everybody else.

ageofknowledge wrote:Women respond to the stimuli they are presented with according to their programming. That's what you need to key in on. Bring your A game and interface with them in a manner that brings forth desirable predictable responses and stay with it honing it as you go. Live it. You'll be the one that ends up with many choices. Afterwards, you can get to know them.

Hehe.

*sigh again* Really? Is that what you think? I will present them with who I am, I will not pretend to be something I am not. I will not be the "alpha male" I will be the Christian male.
Zoe you wrote too much to quote , but thanks for that. I try not let my anger control me, because of my training, but I do realize there are times that it is needed. (Even Christ got angry). I know there are many people reading this from around the world so you have made a global impact . Great job!

cslewislover wrote:You know what's funny, is that I'm not even sure what it means here by having "game." Lol, does the guy have a deer tied on the radiator of his lexus??

cslewislover wrote:Zoe, I agree with you. Players are so very offensive. And having a predetermined view of what turns me on or whatever could be a really fatal mistake for someone (fatal for any relationship ).

My younger brother is a player, and women find him very offensive, proof positve.

ageofknowledge wrote:The simplest definition is that it means interfacing with the needs and the wants of a female appropriately to get her to want to do what you want her to do. It includes matching your behavior, word choices, dress, socialization values and mores, intellect, etc... to accomplish this result. In the worldy sense, "game" is used to accomplish a sexually immoral result. In the Christian sense. it is used to get the girl you want to marry.

To acomplish what I want!? *sigh once again* Okay I will put it to you like this, I WILL NOT PLAY WOMEN AND LIE ABOUT MYSELF AND BE A DIFFERENT MAN THAN WHO I AM! I WILL BE MYSELF, GRANTED THERE ARE FLAWS THAT WILL NEED CHANGING, BUT THEY WILL KNOW ME FOR ME, NOT A LIE!

cslewislover wrote:But then you are manipulating her and presenting a false view of yourself. Both bad from a Christian perspective, and bad for a long-term relationship built on trust. There is always give-and-take, however; there is always sacrifice to do what the other person wants or needs. To me, that's a different thing than "game."

And there you have it! Well said IMO.

ageofknowledge wrote:It's OK to reinvent yourself into the person you want to be. It's also OK for men to learn how to systematically interface with women in a way that brings desirable results for them and visa versa. No sin need apply.

Yes it is okay to reinvent yourself, first thing I agree with you on at this thread. However it is NOT okay to reinvent yourself only to fit what someone wants you to be, then you are not being true to yourself. You say systematically, that sounds like manipulation to me... I want someone who is comfortable being themselves with me, and visa versa.

ageofknowledge wrote:There would have to a real desire and commitment to change for the better to be valid. Manipulation to exploit people to satisfy one's own wants is evil. The first is good. The first is about changing yourself for more effective and desirable results. The second is evil. It is about manipulating people without changing yourself for the better. Sort of like the argument people use for a firearm. It is there. It can be used for good or evil.

Changing yourself is good, espicially if you are not a very good person. We agree... never thought I would type that again.
I would like to thank you for the adivce everybody, well most of it anyway. God bless!

*sigh* Hard wired.... so you intend to tell me that none of us have free will? Is that what you imply? I am not the typical young male. Those around me know that. The "hardwireing" of a typical male is that when he sees a "hot" girl he will look at her in an inapropriate way as she walks by, my "friends" did that. They hated the fact that I do not, it is disrespectful to women. It may intrest you to know that I am very naieve when it comes to the sinning you refer to. (I am going on the assumption that you were implying... well you get it) I know nothing other than what I was taught in health class. I am not hardwierd to be a perve like most men would claim they are. I try to hold myself to a high standard in the way I treat all people and how I view them. Further more I am usually attracted to the "unsightly", as you put it. I interface with people in a Christian manner, including the girls. I also try to be myself, rather the man God wants me to be. I might also add that being alone right now is not the best choice for me... I tried that and it only hurt me more. Right now I need to find some good Christian friends. I just stopped talking with some "christians" who were my "friends" and they had the same mind set about women. (I.E. that they should be manipulated) Maybe you really aren't implying that, maybe I am wrong, but it is coming off as that. I have a lot of issues I need to deal with, things I need to talk about, things that no one would listen to me about. For too long I have been the one to listen and help, no one would do the same for me. So being alone is not a good thing for me right now.

--> I'm not telling you to lust after women or be a player. Of course not. What I said was women have a common biological template that can be understood which you can properly interface with for better results. Even just to enhance simple friendships with them to get them to like you better. And that this is not what you might expect it is.

Psychologists readily utilize this understanding in relationship counseling between men and women. I even gave an example, that book by Dr. Laura where she uses this understanding to teach women how to interface with men. Maybe Zoe and yourself could stop couching everything in terms of sexual immorality and start looking at the positive aspects of what I'm saying. Sure there are Pick Up Artists that exploit women, but there are also husbands that use it to enhance their relationship with their wives and visa versa (again that example by Dr. Laura). You can use it to build relationships with Christian women and get them to really like you. Then make your choice and marry. That's sort of the idea.

Hey Age, just an FYI, I studied a lot in psycology and I don't trust it that much! That was a few wasted years of my life I will never get back. Note that I agree changing ones self for the better is always good, but one should do it for God. I am not quite sure what you are getting at, but your advice doesn't stand up too well with real women sooooo..... I mean that kinda kills it if women disagree with what you say they are and how you say they are wired. I believe we are all unique, individuals, special (don't take that wrong, not that kind of special). I don't think psycology knows everything. In order for them to do so they would have to know everything about everyone. Time and Again we humans have defied psycology. Just my opinion. God bless!

Gabrielman wrote:Hey Age, just an FYI, I studied a lot in psycology and I don't trust it that much! That was a few wasted years of my life I will never get back. Note that I agree changing ones self for the better is always good, but one should do it for God. I am not quite sure what you are getting at, but your advice doesn't stand up too well with real women sooooo..... I mean that kinda kills it if women disagree with what you say they are and how you say they are wired. I believe we are all unique, individuals, special (don't take that wrong, not that kind of special). I don't think psycology knows everything. In order for them to do so they would have to know everything about everyone. Time and Again we humans have defied psycology. Just my opinion. God bless!

Well how about this my friend? Find what works and do it. Don't wait for her to drop out of the sky.

ageofknowledge wrote:Well how about this my friend? Find what works and do it. Don't wait for her to drop out of the sky.

Didn't plan to .(plus someone droping out of the sky, hehe, that may hurt them. I know you weren't being literal here, but I couldn't help myself!) I have been looking, but I have also been out of Church for a while. I have been looking for a new home Church, maybe she will be there. I will have to put God first, and where ever he leads I must go. God bless!

Gab, It sounds to me like you've got a good head on your shoulders. The best advice I have for you is first and foremost, find yourself a good Bible based church that you can get yourself plugged into. Be an active member of the church, don't just sit on the sidelines. Remember church is not a spectator sport.
Second, form solid friendships with some fellow Christians. Don't worry so much about the girl, that will come. Just be yourself, love God, and be encouraged, God will never leave you or forsake you. Sorry don't remember where that verse is.
Here's a couple of books I've read that I think you might like and may be helpful,
Stop Dating the Church by Joshua Harris - This might be helpful in your quest to find a church.
Wild at Heart: Discovering the Secret of a Man's Soul by John Eldredge - This might be helpful in finding out how you are wired and what makes you tick. I think that is really important to know especially as you are coming to the point in your life where you are thinking about marriage, etc.

Now we are back to where we started. All the good advice such as learning about women and adjusting so as to interface properly with them to maximize results has been reduced to don't worry about it. Lol... Ok Professors, in order to pass your class I don't have to actually study just show up. I don't have to delve into the subject matter, it's not important, My A will just take care of itself. Bad advice Gabe. You should listen to me and get over your bias and present way of thinking on this issue. You can learn how to get Christian women to like you and see you as a potential mate enmasse but you're going to have to put in the work and make some changes first friend. Or you can not change and listen to these people and get whatever you get almost by chance alone. So far you're 100% dedicated and committed to the latter path. You should be studying women not men as nd advises lolol..

ageofknowledge wrote:Now we are back to where we started. All the good advice such as learning about women and adjusting so as to interface properly with them to maximize results has been reduced to don't worry about it.

Don't worry about it as in "you are young, keep working at making friends, trust in God"...no problem there

You can learn how to get Christian women to like you

He is 21!!! He is a perfectly normal guy that will in all probability date some, break up some, and find that lucky woman... Sure you should learn to be a gentlemen...but you can't *make* someone like you or love you. You can be the best person you can be. You can be nice, you can be gentlemanly, you can be thoughtful....you can't change whether someone likes you. That way lies frustration.

and see you as a potential mate enmasse but you're going to have to put in the work and make some changes first friend.

what changes?!?!? so far all Gabrielman has said is that he hasn't had many dates and some women have turned him down....He hasn't revealed why they have.... He is 21!! Do you know how many inexperienced young men I see? Oh about 200 each day. They aren't much different. Unless he is going up to the women and belching in their faces and talking about other women to them....it's just a matter of time and making friends and getting to know people.

It sounds more of an issue of lack of opportunities with good Christian friends. I agree with nd925, get involved in a good church, have a good support group, get involved with a good young adults ministry where you can talk to the women without the pressure of immediate dating.

Or you can not change and listen to these people and get whatever you get almost by chance alone.

None of us have said to go by chance alone (?!?!?) Nd925 and the rest of us have simply encouraged him to get involved in a church and in a church group with lots of fellowship opportunities. Wow....what terrible advice... In the church groups they usually have monthly activities, some fun, some service. You can get to know them without having to immediately feel like dating.

So far you're 100% dedicated and committed to the latter path. You should be studying women not men as nd advises lolol..

Gee, Age, why study women since we don't know what we want and, in your own words, it doesn't matter what we say we want, since *you* know what we really want....why bother studying us, you already know us!!!


There is nothing wrong in building relationships with the older men and women in church as well as building fellowship opportunities with the younger crowd. How about doing both...study those men who you admire and *their* interactions with women and the women you respect....see what kind of men *they* choose.

gabrielman wrote:The main problem was being the only person I know never having a girlfriend and having no experience what so ever. That makes it harder to get one because they want someone who knows just what to do and I don't know what to do. I have never even had my first kiss so that would be akward with someone who is already experienced.

I meant to reply to this, Gabe....don't ever worry about the physical experience bit. The woman you love won't/shouldn't care about it....in fact we would be quite happy with someone with very little or no experience...of course if you are going after the wrong sort of girl they probably care. In the words of someone I can't remember...physical passion is easy...it's the loving that's hard.

My brother went through his entire undergrad without a date....his first real girlfriend was in grad school....and he had to be hinted at by the singles group leader that his now wife was interested in him....married by 30...

I have to add that some of the posts by ageofknowledge are sitting a little uncomfortably with me, it sounds remarkably similar to things I've heard said by those with an interest in evolutionary psychology and dating. More like Sun Tzu than wholesome relationship advice.

I've never had any interest in learning to how interface with people so I can pick friends/spouse from a group of infatuated individuals, cultivating meaningful relationships was always higher on my list and pretending to be, or being, an alpha make who 'got game', from my observations, does not attract the sort of people I would like to have meaningful relationships with.

Gabrielman:

Do you mind if I ask if you have many close female friends? I found it difficult to have close female friends when single and really wanted them, now I'm married with a daughter and a houseful of mainly female animals I've got far more close female friends without really trying. It sort of went from almost no females in my life, aside from my mum and sister, to one female, my wife and just kept going up from there.

I have two close friends who are single and looking for love. One is very obvious in her want for commitment and finds it rather difficult to have meaningful, lasting relationships with men. The other keeps it far more hidden and he has many, very close female friends whom he has meaningful relationships with, I don't mean sex, but finds it very tough to make the jump from great friend to dating. That may not help you in the slightest but as they were talking about it over the past few days I thought I would type it anyway.

Using psychological constructs, like alpha and beta males, to interface with females with the outcome of getting to pick which one you want seems like bad advice to me. Cultivate meaningful relationships with the opposite sex whilst being yourself would be my advice. And to add to what the others have said, close involvement with a church which speaks to your heart isn't going to any harm to that advice.

Your biased misunderstandings guide your judgements. There is nothing wrong with taking the time and energy to understand women. You can pretend that this isn't desirable to your goal of dating Christian women and from them finding a wife as all of these people are telling you though there position is illogical, unscientific, and not even scriptural. Nowhere does scripture command us to remain ignorant of the opposite sex because to understand them better is evil. What it tells us to do is flee sexual immorality but also to gain knowledge and wisdom. This is summarized in the verse to be wise as serpents but innocent as doves. This is all bias and prejudice from posters who want to color me in some bad light for pointing this out and that is wrong.

It's desirable to read books like Every Man's Battle for a scriptural understanding but also books like Say Goodbye to Stubborn Sin by Doctor Clark for a biological understanding. But I'm asserting that it's also desirable, and here is where the others disagree with me, to understand the nature of women so instead of fighting against it getting negative results or stumbling around seeking to learn it purely through trial and error without a roadmap and getting less than desirable results: you can learn and practice it and get desirable results. I truly believe I'm the one in the right here.

Age,

No one actually disagrees with you about finding out about the opposite gender. We disagree with what *you* seem to think women want. Bottom line...you think you know women...that in order to get a women, you need cars, money and game...just a little reminder of what you said...

Women want a man in control with money, looks, and game.

"act as if" while you work your plan. That's how you get the job done friend.

...so pretend you are in control and have money?

ah, and some more gems...

They'll tell you all sorts of nonsense

wow...so we spout nonsense...

but they are wired a certain way biologically and will follow their biological programming. God made them that way. Learn their programming

great...if only you took your own advice.

and how to interface with them in real life and you'll get better results.

oh so promising!!! BUT wait there's more...

Forget about what they say.

Lovely...and here is where all of the promising "learn their programming" falls apart...

makes me a woman hater, a chauvenistic pig,

no it just reveals how little you actually *know* of our programming....sad...although it does sound remarkably misogynistic

when you tell a guy to stop asking women out for coffee and start acting like a man and interfacing with them in a way that gets results.

Yes, heaven forbid he actually takes her out for a coffee, pays for it, listens to her and actually INTERFACES with her!! Good grief....what do you think interfaces means?!?! Ask any women and she would love to have a man actually sit down and listen to her....you had CsLewislover herself tell you....and I would echo that......on no, a man asking a women for coffer.... what is the world coming to!!!??!!

I wish I had listened years ago.

....oyu still aren't listening...

But if you want a girlfriend, and Christian girls are biologically wired like all girls everywhere, then you need to know their biological programming.. what moves them and interface appropriately

But for heaven's sake don't ask her out for coffee or actually listen to her...

Blah blah blah... their talk is irrelevant

ah yes, all of you men out there, you must learn our programming...but *don't * listen to them....blah blah blah....we are irrelevant in YOU undersanding US....Brilliant!!!

and like following smoke trails around in different directions looking for a fire somewhere you'll not likely find because what they say and do are often two different things.

Love this one....hey...it's not that hard!!! We would love someone to lead but we would love someone to ask us and listen to us....whoa!!! Spend time!! Cherish!! Actually trust us when we say something instead of regarding it as irrelevant...

Bring your A game and interface with them in a manner that brings forth desirable predictable responses and stay with it honing it as you go. Live it.

ah so promising...again....(but don't ask them out for coffee or listen to them)

You'll be the one that ends up with many choices. Afterwards, you can get to know them.

and a swing and a miss!!!

Yes, guys, you need your game, money, and cars...and if you don't "act as if" you do....interface but not really because they are irrelevant to the process because blah blah blah they don't know their own minds....

What I said was women have a common biological template that can be understood which you can properly interface with for better results.

and yet, you don't get it...

All the good advice such as learning about women and adjusting so as to interface properly with them to maximize results

so is that the interface that basically tells you to *not* listen to women because....blah blah blah...their thoughts are irrelevant?

Nowhere does scripture command us to remain ignorant of the opposite sex because to understand them better is evil.

This would have far more validity if you actually listened to us instead of proclaiming that we say one thing and want another.

This is all bias and prejudice from posters who want to color me in some bad light for pointing this out and that is wrong.

NO age, what I have been desperately (in my case) trying to get you to understand is to hear yourself. On one hand you sit there and proclaim that one should understand women and yet in the next sentence you boldly proclaim that to understand women essentially you should know that we don't understand ourselves...(blah blah blah...we say one thing but want another). I'm not trying to color you in a bad light....shoot you're doing a pretty darn good job of it yourself.

this "interface" with women line would be far more impressive if you actually did that.

understand the nature of women so instead of fighting against it getting negative results or stumbling around seeking to learn it purely through trial and error without a roadmap and getting less than desirable results: you can learn and practice it and get desirable results.

So someone who basically says that women don't know themselves essentially wants us to believe that he knows us better than ourselves ....don't you see the bizarre nature of this?!?!?! Flip it around....imagine (and it happens, of course) when women declare that they know men and insist that men really love...oh...say ice skating....and every man you ask states that no, they detest ice skating, turn on the football game....to ignore them and declare that men don't really know themselves....blah blah blah they're irrelevant to the process....?!?! How blind is that/?!?

I truly believe I'm the one in the right here.

No one disputes the interfacing and getting to know the opposite gender....you haven't shown that 1) you actually *want* to interface and learn from actual women.... and 2) you actually care to interface....it's sounding like simply a means to an end....and that's the real shame of it....beacuse in the end....we really want men *to want* to interface with us.