Why?

[Santa]

But then why the whole Earth process in the first place? Like I said earlier, why can't we be given the option of being with god or not straight up, like the angels apparently were. Why send us to Earth? What's the purpose?

[Gabrielman]

Ask yourself this, is it fair to say that you will never be convinced? Even with all the evidence, scinetific and otherwise, is there a reason that exists that you should never find yourself convinced? That seems to be unfair from where I am standing. He gives us all this evidence, and to then say "yeah but that isn't good enough" seems kinda... well unfair.
That's all I got for now, need to do some other things for now. More later.
God bless!

[Santa]

Say I died before coming to a decision. What would happen? Would that be another exception? There seems to be a hell of a lot of exceptions. Which kinda defeats whatever purpose he had of putting us here. Or you could say that me dying before coming to the conclusion he existed is tough luck - it's straight to hell or wherever for me.

Do you get what I'm trying to say? It just seems a bit far-fetched to believe this is what some god has planned and this is how he works. I just don't believe it.

Keep the replies coming though. :)

edit: It'd be interesting to hear what any of you have to say on this btw.

http://www.geocities.com/hammihanirani/ ... nbody.html

[Gabrielman]

That would not be an acception. One must look at it like this, you have been presented evidence, now you must come to a conclustion. Whose fault would it be that you didn't? If I was to make a desection about say... the option weather or not to shoot a man at a critical time. Let's say he has a hostage and I have enough proof to know that if I shoot him, the hostage will be saved. Now let's say I decide in the time fram I am given I don't decide, and the hostage dies. Whose fault was it that I didn't choose to shoot? It was mine. That is the same as this. We have one life time and we don't know how much time we have, we need to decide within that time and if we are presented eviedence, but we don't want to make a decision on it, it is our own fault. That is my take on it though, it may not be everybody elses, but that is how I see it.
God bless!

[Santa]

What about someone really young then?

And what exactly is the evidence? Name some.

I still fail to see how it's fair to be rejected based on whether or not you come to believe in god. It's not as if you're personally rejecting him, you aren't even sure of his existence! It's not fair whichever way you look at it.

[Gabrielman]

What about someone really young then?

The Bible says that the age of acoutability is 13. One must see that a child is not able to tell the difference between right and wrong. The early years of life are used to begin to understand. God would not judge someone who does not know the difference in right and wrong.

And what exactly is the evidence? Name some.

For starters? The fact we are living atoms like I mentioned earlier. The fine tunning of the universe is another. Think, if the balance there currently is in the univers were off by the slightest bit it would not be inhabitable.

Think of the impeccable balance of the mass of the proton/electron/neutron et cetera and how if any of these mass were moved even one thousand thousandth of an inch then the universe would not be fit for life

Actually Derrick took the words right out of my mouth! (I hope you don't mind that I quoted you man, you just said it so well).
There is mountain upon mountain of eveidence that I don't have time to put into a thread. Look at the historical truths, how the Bible seemingly matches many of the acnient finds we are making day after day. There are a few stone blocks that were found not too long ago that depict exodus just as the Bible descirbes it, but it was written in hiroglyphics (pardon my spelling!) This was an egyption account of the same story told in the Bible. Think of how unique the Bible is. Christianity is very different from all other religions. Most want you to believe in a god that will kill you for just one screw up, no second chances. Others say that you sould kill yourself in the name of a god, or that you should kill unbelievers, like Islam states. Christianity says that God loves us all and He wants us all to be with Him in heaven. He is willing to forgive time after time and all you must do is believe and ask for it. There is nothing to loose from belief in God, but much to gain.

I still fail to see how it's fair to be rejected based on whether or not you come to believe in god. It's not as if you're personally rejecting him, you aren't even sure of his existence! It's not fair whichever way you look at it.

If you don't accept Him because you decided you will not be convinced then you are personaly rejecting Him.
God bless!

[Santa]

The Bible says that the age of acoutability is 13. One must see that a child is not able to tell the difference between right and wrong. The early years of life are used to begin to understand. God would not judge someone who does not know the difference in right and wrong.

Alright, so say someone died at the age of 15, is that really a good amount of time to have made a decision by? Does god expect someone that young to have reached a conclusion? If they lived a bit longer they might've eventually accepted him, but they didn't. People who live longer obviously have an advantage, don't they?

So once again it doesn't sound like an ideal way for god to test people... due to all the advantages/disadvantages different people have.

For starters? The fact we are living atoms like I mentioned earlier. The fine tunning of the universe is another. Think, if the balance there currently is in the univers were off by the slightest bit it would not be inhabitable.

True, but think how big the universe is. The chances of it happening aren't 0. Also, you can't automatically assume the christian god's responsible.

Pretty much all the planets we know of aren't capable of life, only Earth... which could easily have been by chance.

If you don't accept Him because you decided you will not be convinced then you are personaly rejecting Him.

Nope, I'm not. :) It's not as if he's some person that's asked me out to watch a movie and I've said no. Because I know that person exists, and I've turned them down. With god, though, I don't even know he exists - so how can I turn him down?

Might not be the best example, but I hope you get my point.

[Santa]

Speaking of 'finely tuned'... http://www.geocities.com/hammihanirani/ ... nbody.html

There's also imperfections with a number of animals:

The designer can't have been very intelligent. Just take a look at a giraffe: Why does it have a nerve between the brain and the larynx going all the way down the neck and then up again, instead of just going the very short and direct route? And why does a giraffe have 7 neck bones and a humming bird 14, when the opposite would have been more suitable?

[Gabrielman]

Alright, so say someone died at the age of 15, is that really a good amount of time to have made a decision by? Does god expect someone that young to have reached a conclusion? If they lived a bit longer they might've eventually accepted him, but they didn't. People who live longer obviously have an advantage, don't they?

So once again it doesn't sound like an ideal way for god to test people... due to all the advantages/disadvantages different people have.

Back then they didn't live very long, and yes two years, that should be enough. If you really cared about the subject, not just blew it off and said what ever (not that I am implying you have, talking form a 15 year old stand point) then you would have had enough time to come to that conclusion.

True, but think how big the universe is. The chances of it happening aren't 0. Also, you can't automatically assume the christian god's responsible.

The chances aren't 0 that it wasn't created either. Actually living by random chance that the univers just happened is , imo, something that takes more faith. I won't leave my life to chance, I don't like the odds. So far as the Christian God being the one who made it, Christinaity is the only faith that withstands the test of history. All others are found to be false in what they proclaim happened and so they just say that whatever part was wrong is no longer "holy scripture", as for Christianity, find after find only proves it to be more and more true.

Nope, I'm not. It's not as if he's some person that's asked me out to watch a movie and I've said no. Because I know that person exists, and I've turned them down. With god, though, I don't even know he exists - so how can I turn him down?

Might not be the best example, but I hope you get my point.

Actually that was a good example. However you must think of it like this. God is trying to get you to notice Him. Even now as I type and you read... err well you are reading after I typed, but you get it. He is spending this time to reach you personaly because He loves you. He wants you to see Him, He wants you to be with Him, but He needs a decison. Saying that He has not tried to get you to accept Him and that He has not provided evidence is essetially rejecting Him. It's like if I stood off in the corner and yelled at you and threw water ballons at you to try and get you to notice me. If you just ignored that, or saw it as inefficient data that I was trying to get your attention then you would be rejecting me, or at least it would seem that way to me.
Keep posting, I am enjoying this, you are actually making me think.
God bless!
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html
http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/ ... nebad.html
lol you posted while I was writting so I read it, try these.

[Santa]

Back then they didn't live very long, and yes two years, that should be enough. If you really cared about the subject, not just blew it off and said what ever (not that I am implying you have, talking form a 15 year old stand point) then you would have had enough time to come to that conclusion.

You think? You can't expect all 15 year olds to be mature enough to have made a proper decision. Also, it's such a short time to go out and research.

It'd be a shame and unfair if I were to come to the conclusion god existed next year, but ended up dying shortly before. From what you can tell today it's obvious I haven't just brushed it off, I just haven't came to a conclusion. So if I were to be sent to hell because of that, it'd pretty much suck.

I've read a few people here who say they didn't come to believe until they were half way through life - I bet they'd be disappointed if they had have died at 15 and missed out on being with god because of that.

:) Actually that was a good example. However you must think of it like this. God is trying to get you to notice Him. Even now as I type and you read... err well you are reading after I typed, but you get it. He is spending this time to reach you personaly because He loves you. He wants you to see Him, He wants you to be with Him, but He needs a decison. Saying that He has not tried to get you to accept Him and that He has not provided evidence is essetially rejecting Him. It's like if I stood off in the corner and yelled at you and threw water ballons at you to try and get you to notice me. If you just ignored that, or saw it as inefficient data that I was trying to get your attention then you would be rejecting me, or at least it would seem that way to me.
Keep posting, I am enjoying this, you are actually making me think.
God bless! ;)

I get what you're trying to say, but god isn't 'throwing balloons' to everyone, is he? There'd be millions or billions of people since it all began that weren't aware of god's existence.

Once again, this is all assuming god actually exists. :)

You keep posting too. :)

[Gabrielman]

Last post tonight, it's getting late.

You think? You can't expect all 15 year olds to be mature enough to have made a proper decision. Also, it's such a short time to go out and research.

It'd be a shame and unfair if I were to come to the conclusion god existed next year, but ended up dying shortly before. From what you can tell today it's obvious I haven't just brushed it off, I just haven't came to a conclusion. So if I were to be sent to hell because of that, it'd pretty much suck.

I've read a few people here who say they didn't come to believe until they were half way through life - I bet they'd be disappointed if they had have died at 15 and missed out on being with god because of that.

The best source I could find on this, (didn't have enough time to really think on it much.) is this.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/unfairgod.html
I must say though that it isn't entirely impossible for a child to begin to investivgate God. We are not held acountable for our sins until a certian age, that doesn't mean we cannot learn about God at a younger age. In fact we should, and it is the Church's job to make sure the word gets out. That's all I got on that for now.

I get what you're trying to say, but god isn't 'throwing balloons' to everyone, is he? There'd be millions or billions of people since it all began that weren't aware of god's existence.

Actually He is. He loves everyone very much and is trying to get them to see that. You know that feeling you get when you want answers, that's Him trying to get you to find them (though I may not be the best source in the world). I think of it like this, life without God to me is pointless. Get up, go to work, come home, go to bed, and do it all over again. For what? To rot in a grave? I once held an atheistic view. I found myself lying in bed at night looking up at the celieng and feeling completely empty, wondering why I should even bother with life. God came to me, err you could just read that on another thread... I have a... complex history with God, I'll put it like that. However He is working in my life. He is working in me, and working on me. He gave me a reason to live, not for me, but for those around me. He loves everyone and wants them all to be with Him. Trust me, if it weren't for the original sin thing, He would be here with us now. Anyway, too tierd to think right now, later!
God bless!

[Santa]

Actually He is. He loves everyone very much and is trying to get them to see that. You know that feeling you get when you want answers, that's Him trying to get you to find them (though I may not be the best source in the world). I think of it like this, life without God to me is pointless. Get up, go to work, come home, go to bed, and do it all over again. For what? To rot in a grave? I once held an atheistic view. I found myself lying in bed at night looking up at the celieng and feeling completely empty, wondering why I should even bother with life. God came to me, err you could just read that on another thread... I have a... complex history with God, I'll put it like that. However He is working in my life. He is working in me, and working on me. He gave me a reason to live, not for me, but for those around me. He loves everyone and wants them all to be with Him. Trust me, if it weren't for the original sin thing, He would be here with us now. Anyway, too tierd to think right now, later!
God bless!

That's one of the main reasons people go out of their way to believe in god, no matter how little some things about christianity make sense. I used to think like you did, still do at times, but there's plenty to live for. Make the most of your life, have fun, etc, enjoy other people's company... you don't need an afterlife to have a purpose. Although I would prefer there was one - who the hell wouldn't?! :) I'm definitely not ruling it out... I just don't see why I should feel as though I HAVE to accept this god because the bible tells me to. I'd like to keep my mind open. There could be nothing, there could be something. Does it really matter? I think a true god would understand that.

Answer this for me - if you died a year before you came to believe in god, and were consequently sent to hell because of that, do you think you'd agree with god's decision?

[Jac3510]

TWo quick things, Santa:

1. The Bible doesn't tell you that you have to believe in God. It wasn't written to you. It was written to Christians. It tells US what happens if other people don't accept Christ as their Savior. It tells US what God's plan for mankind is. You can read it, of course, and learn quite a few things, and in reading it, God can bring you to a knowledge of the Truth. But it is a mischaracterization to say that the Bible threatens you if you don't believe. It's no more of a "threat" than a mother saying to her child, "Don't play out in the street, because if you do, you will get hit by a car."

2. The whole notion of the "unfair" thing is really self-contradictory. Suppose you don't agree with God's decision to "send someone to Hell". On what basis do you disagree? You probably think that it isn't fair. It's not right. It's wrong. You are making a moral claim.

But let me ask you this: who decides what is right and wrong? You? You obviously don't have the personal authority to tell anyone what they think or do is right or wrong. Just because you like or don't like something doesn't mean that it is or is not the case. So if you disagree with God, so what? You aren't DISAGREEING with God's decision. To disagree would be to say that you thought that He was mistaken, but you can't be MISTAKEN about right and wrong, fair and unfair, if those words only mean "what I like and don't like." On the other hand, if you say that "fair" and "unfair" have real meanings apart from what anyone thinks, then where do those come from? Obviously, God. God decides what is right and wrong.

So, we can ask you very simply: where did you get this idea of "fair" from in the first place? I don't just mean in the sense of origin. You were taught it by your parents and society. I mean, what makes you think it is binding. What makes you think that "fair" really exists? Says who? You? The only way "fair" has any real meaning is if God exists and declares it. Only He has the authority to decide what is fair and what is not.

So, when you say you think God's decisions are unfair, you are actually saying that He is not being consistent with His own rules of fairness. That's fine, but don't you think that's a little arrogant on your part? Don't you think that if anybody is in possession of facts that you are not, it would be God? Who are you to judge God? How can you possibly say you are in possession of enough information to say whether He did the right or the wrong thing?

Either way you go, your question is really meaningless. Either God doesn't exist, so the word "fair" is COMPLETELY RELATIVE to what you believe (and likewise, to what I believe), and, as such, saying God's "justice" is "unfair" is just tantamount to saying "I don't like that" (like that has any relevance); or God does exist and decides what is fair. In which case, you can't say God is being unfair since HE is the One who decides what is fair. And you can't say that He is being inconsistent, because you can't possibly claim to be in possession of all the same facts that He is. You would have to be omniscient, which would make you God.

Bottom line: only an omniscient God is qualified to decide what is fair and what is not with any real meaning. Since you are neither omniscient nor God, you can't logically make this complaint.

God bless

[Santa]

Um, if you don't 'accept Jesus' or whatever you're doomed. He's supposed to forgive your sins once you do, right? So if you don't believe in christianity, you're going to hell, wherever that is.

It says so on your own site: http://www.faithalone.org/gospel.html

As for your second point, IT'S SIMPLE! Don't try to put a spin on it. A 15 year old dying and being expected to have made a choice on whether or not they believe in christianity in order to be saved IS NOT FAIR. Why? For starters they're only two years in to the 'age of accountability'! Seriously, do you really think someone that young is going to have read the entire bible and come to a final conclusion? Many of the testimonies of the members here didn't come to believe until they were much older!

I'm sorry, but if you don't see that, there's something wrong. Are you scared to lose your faith or something?

If we're to say our ideas on what's fair or isn't fair isn't real, who's to say anything's real? You can't put everything down to a 2000 year old book. Being vague about certain things seems to be the way many people try to justify their belief in god.

Why don't we get rid of the courts now and just be done with it if we have no idea what fairness is. Who are we to lock away god's people?

[Jac3510]

First, there is no difference in what the Bible says about Hell. It is simply informing you of what happens if you "play in the street" (that is, reject God).

Question: do you consider it a THREAT when a tells their child not to play in the street or they will get hit by a car, Santa?

Secondly, you can scream "IT'S SIMPLE" all you want, but that doesn't make your point any more rational. Your statement is self-defeating, which makes it irrational. That's not spin, Santa. That is just you not understanding what you are really asking.

Question: on what basis do you think it is wrong for God to condemn people to Hell (even those who have never heard)?