Evidence for God from Science

qqMOARpewpew wrote:Well if we can thank lucifer for this, then we can thank god for this mess. God knew what would happened with lucifer. And if god is really god, why would one of his closest angels ever ever try to over throw god?
God; almighty. Morning Star; more powerful than a person i could imagine, but even if he had the strength of 10,000 men god could still destroy lucifer without even trying, am i wrong here? God decided to let lucifer go, and live on earth (there are 8 other planets in this solar system and > a trillion planets in th galaxy but god let lucifer go to earth.) God could easly make it so lucifer could not interveine in the lives of man. God could instantly wipe the heart of all men women and children clean from want to sin. God could also take everyone who is alive, take their souls and bring everyone out of hell and everyone who is supposed to be born in the next thousand years and shove us all in paradise in a moment. If we are supposed to be in paradise it is gods conscious decision for us to not be right now.

It's obvoius you don't understand and don't want to. By the way you are posting it seems you just don't care to actually understand Christanity at all. Your response is "we should just blame God for everything." Wrong, again. First off lucifer caused other angels to fall, and then he went to earth to tempt man cause he didn't want God to have anyone to love Him. He wanted all mankind and angel kind to no longer be with God. Lucifer wasn't send by God to go live on earth. Lucifer went there to ruin what God had started, just like he had done in heaven. Yes God could just up and destroy lucifer and anyone else who just didn't do what He wanted. And while He is at it He can just destroy everything He doesn't like? I mean think about this, why stop at lucifer? No, God is not a kid that throws a temper tantrum and then destroys stuff. Lucifer didn't want to be with God so God said "fine, leave here and never come back" (not actual words, but that is the jist of it) He isn't going to just start killing off those who don't love Him, casue then they would feel like they have to love Him just to exist, what kind of free will is that? God wanted people to love Him because they wanted too. Would it be love if you held a gun to a girls head and told her that if she wanted to live she had to love you? She would say she did (if she wanted to live) but inwardly she may very well hate you. He isn't just going to force us all into paradise in an instant, that would be like me kidnapping a bunce of people and forceing them to be with me, and never giving them a chance to be free and choose what they wanted to do. How is that love, really? I mean that is just messed up, would a loving God force someone to stay with Him for all time even if they didn't want to?

qqMOARpewpew wrote:If god were all powerful he could make a square-circle. If he can not do illogical things you are tampering with god's free will the same way you say god allows us to sin for the purpose of free will. Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong (ie they didn't know it was wrong to disobey god and eat from the tree) and big old intelligent universe making guy decided to put the tree of knowledge of good and evil the only thing that adam and eve were not allowed to eat in the garden of eden, again he had this whole universe to hide the tree and no one would have to worry about sin. God could have easily NOT made a tree of good and evil, unless he isn't god and needs the tree for some power over man. God could have put the tree in some other dimension. God knew that the snake was in the garden, God knew when the snake was talking to Eve. God would have known when eve decided to take a fruit and god could have been like, "Yo, eve. No frickin way thats my tree." God could have left an angel to watch the tree, god could have made the tree so tall no one could climb it. God consciously decided he wanted to send men to hell, or god isn't god and could not decide.

Did you even bother to look at the main site BTW? I hate it when people come here and all they do is go straight for the board. Read some of the main site articles for crying out loud. Some of what you ask is answered there. I mean you just said God could turn truth into a lie in the first part there. That would make Him a sinner, to lie. Here is a link to a page on the main site that answers your question. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... A388abT1mA
Please before going on, read some of the main site! It is very interesting and very educational. Actually almost all you have said here, is answered there. I don't have the time to waste always going through the same things and answering, so this is all I can do for now.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... D2FWEWXkkE
That is just a bit of an answer to some of what you have said. Now don't think I hate, I don't. I like having constuctive disscussions with people, but it almost seems as though you don't want that. Now if I had more time I would be more than happy to go on and on just answering every little thing you say, but alas, I don't. Peace, and please look at the main site.

jlay wrote:The bible says very specifically what sin is.
Sin is transgression of the Law. (God's Law) 1 John 3:4
And, "He who knows the good he ought to do and does not do it. To Him it is sin." James 4:17
Paul also wrote, "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." Romans 2:12 And goes on to say, "since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." (Rom 2:15-16)


Notice here that there is a "knowing" involved. That means no one accidently sins. They sin with the knowledge it is wrong. Does a murderer murder without the knowledge that it is wrong? Of course not. Same with rape. And the same with lying, or lust. This is why men HIDE their pornography. They KNOW it is wrong. And we could list a myriad of other transgressions. Sin is a shaking of one's fist in the face of God. When you or I willingly rebel against what we know to be right and wrong, we sin. The word Conscience actually means "With Knowledge." Example: A kid is playing with a baseball and accidently breaks a window. He didn't mean to. It was an accident. Now, same ball, same kid, same window. In an act of anger or mischief, the kid throws the ball through the window, intentionally breaking it."
Is there a difference? Of course there is. The difference is the attitude of the heart.

So it is preposterous to think that God is sending innocent people to punishment. And it is preposterous to think that God is sending people to hell for being ignorant, or being born in the wrong place.

Let me ask you this. Is there a crime that you would say is fitting of Hell? You don't have to describe the crime.
I look forward to you answer and continued discussion.

No one is innocent. But if you were raised all your life to be Hindu you would know a bit about Christianity but I doubt you would change your culture, your lifestyle when it is how you were raised and how 90% of your family and friends live.

I don't know if anyone deserves eternal torture, no matter what they have done, even the worse offenders, I feel like two life times of torture would be enough for repeat rapists, murders, tortures.

Gabrielman wrote:

qqMOARpewpew wrote:Well if we can thank lucifer for this, then we can thank god for this mess. God knew what would happened with lucifer. And if god is really god, why would one of his closest angels ever ever try to over throw god?
God; almighty. Morning Star; more powerful than a person i could imagine, but even if he had the strength of 10,000 men god could still destroy lucifer without even trying, am i wrong here? God decided to let lucifer go, and live on earth (there are 8 other planets in this solar system and > a trillion planets in th galaxy but god let lucifer go to earth.) God could easly make it so lucifer could not interveine in the lives of man. God could instantly wipe the heart of all men women and children clean from want to sin. God could also take everyone who is alive, take their souls and bring everyone out of hell and everyone who is supposed to be born in the next thousand years and shove us all in paradise in a moment. If we are supposed to be in paradise it is gods conscious decision for us to not be right now.

It's obvoius you don't understand and don't want to. By the way you are posting it seems you just don't care to actually understand Christanity at all. Your response is "we should just blame God for everything." Wrong, again. First off lucifer caused other angels to fall, and then he went to earth to tempt man cause he didn't want God to have anyone to love Him. He wanted all mankind and angel kind to no longer be with God. Lucifer wasn't send by God to go live on earth. Lucifer went there to ruin what God had started, just like he had done in heaven. Yes God could just up and destroy lucifer and anyone else who just didn't do what He wanted. And while He is at it He can just destroy everything He doesn't like? I mean think about this, why stop at lucifer? No, God is not a kid that throws a temper tantrum and then destroys stuff. Lucifer didn't want to be with God so God said "fine, leave here and never come back" (not actual words, but that is the jist of it) He isn't going to just start killing off those who don't love Him, casue then they would feel like they have to love Him just to exist, what kind of free will is that? God wanted people to love Him because they wanted too. Would it be love if you held a gun to a girls head and told her that if she wanted to live she had to love you? She would say she did (if she wanted to live) but inwardly she may very well hate you. He isn't just going to force us all into paradise in an instant, that would be like me kidnapping a bunce of people and forceing them to be with me, and never giving them a chance to be free and choose what they wanted to do. How is that love, really? I mean that is just messed up, would a loving God force someone to stay with Him for all time even if they didn't want to?

qqMOARpewpew wrote:If god were all powerful he could make a square-circle. If he can not do illogical things you are tampering with god's free will the same way you say god allows us to sin for the purpose of free will. Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong (ie they didn't know it was wrong to disobey god and eat from the tree) and big old intelligent universe making guy decided to put the tree of knowledge of good and evil the only thing that adam and eve were not allowed to eat in the garden of eden, again he had this whole universe to hide the tree and no one would have to worry about sin. God could have easily NOT made a tree of good and evil, unless he isn't god and needs the tree for some power over man. God could have put the tree in some other dimension. God knew that the snake was in the garden, God knew when the snake was talking to Eve. God would have known when eve decided to take a fruit and god could have been like, "Yo, eve. No frickin way thats my tree." God could have left an angel to watch the tree, god could have made the tree so tall no one could climb it. God consciously decided he wanted to send men to hell, or god isn't god and could not decide.

Did you even bother to look at the main site BTW? I hate it when people come here and all they do is go straight for the board. Read some of the main site articles for crying out loud. Some of what you ask is answered there. I mean you just said God could turn truth into a lie in the first part there. That would make Him a sinner, to lie. Here is a link to a page on the main site that answers your question. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... A388abT1mA
Please before going on, read some of the main site! It is very interesting and very educational. Actually almost all you have said here, is answered there. I don't have the time to waste always going through the same things and answering, so this is all I can do for now.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... D2FWEWXkkE
That is just a bit of an answer to some of what you have said. Now don't think I hate, I don't. I like having constuctive disscussions with people, but it almost seems as though you don't want that. Now if I had more time I would be more than happy to go on and on just answering every little thing you say, but alas, I don't. Peace, and please look at the main site.

I hadn't read that article but I had heard it all before. You limiting gods limitless power makes it have limits either your god has Omnipotence (from Latin: Omni Potens: "all power") unlimited power, or he is just a super being with Limited power. If you want your god to only be able to do things that are logically possible for man, you can believe that. The bible does say this however; "With men it is impossible; but to God all things are possible" It didn't say all things, except for things he can not do did it?

For with God nothing shall be impossible. (not only possible things are possible for god)

Genesis 18:14 Is anything too difficult for the LORD? (Well is it?)

The god of the bible could make a square circle, he could make the truth purple if he willed it.


I stand by that if god was testing adam and eve it was messed up on his part. Adam and Eve didn't have knowledge of evil ie eating of the tree was evil, but how were they to know that? They hadn't eaten of the tree yet! God willed them to know evil. God knew satan was in the garden tempting them or have I misunderstood god again?

I don't know if anyone deserves eternal torture, no matter what they have done, even the worse offenders, I feel like two life times of torture would be enough for repeat rapists, murders, tortures.

Let me get this straight. So two life times of torture is OK with you for things that are heinous in your eyes?

Genesis 18:14 Is anything too difficult for the LORD? (Well is it?)

The god of the bible could make a square circle, he could make the truth purple if he willed it.

Trying to disprove God with absurdities is really not even an argument. This is what philosophy calls an ungrammaticality. It is a meaningless self-contradictory question. For a question to be a question is must demonstrate that it is reasonable and correct. The question is not reasonable but is just an attempt at a gotcha. A square circle can not be made because it isn't. A square circle isn't a thing. It's like asking can God make an odd number even.

It is impossible for God to lie. "But God suppose to be able to do anything," you say. It is impossible for me to eat live worms. I am certainly capable of eating worms, but it is impossible because the idea is so repulsive to me.

Using these absurdities as an excuse not to believe is like saying pitch darkness does not exist because you can't see it. To be honest, it is like playing little Johnny in Kindergarten. Sophmoric, amatuerish, intellectual diareah.

jlay wrote:

I don't know if anyone deserves eternal torture, no matter what they have done, even the worse offenders, I feel like two life times of torture would be enough for repeat rapists, murders, tortures.

Let me get this straight. So two life times of torture is OK with you for things that are heinous in your eyes?

Genesis 18:14 Is anything too difficult for the LORD? (Well is it?)

The god of the bible could make a square circle, he could make the truth purple if he willed it.

Trying to disprove God with absurdities is really not even an argument. This is what philosophy calls an ungrammaticality. It is a meaningless self-contradictory question. For a question to be a question is must demonstrate that it is reasonable and correct. The question is not reasonable but is just an attempt at a gotcha. A square circle can not be made because it isn't. A square circle isn't a thing. It's like asking can God make an odd number even.

It is impossible for God to lie. "But God suppose to be able to do anything," you say. It is impossible for me to eat live worms. I am certainly capable of eating worms, but it is impossible because the idea is so repulsive to me.

Using these absurdities as an excuse not to believe is like saying pitch darkness does not exist because you can't see it. To be honest, it is like playing little Johnny in Kindergarten. Sophmoric, amatuerish, intellectual diareah.

Two life times is more than enough even for the worst offenders in my eyes, is it okay to torture anyone forever in your eyes?

It shouldn't be impossible for god to lie, if mankind can lie why couldn't an almighty god tell a white lie, let alone make a circle-square, or make Babylonia orange? How could an almighty god not make blue into black if he made all things from nothing (which is just as illogical as square-triangles)
These are not why I don't believe in a deity, I don't believe in a deity because I haven't seen any evidence for a deity.

Two life times is more than enough even for the worst offenders in my eyes, is it okay to torture anyone forever in your eyes?

It shouldn't be impossible for god to lie, if mankind can lie why couldn't an almighty god tell a white lie, let alone make a circle-square, or make Babylonia orange? How could an almighty god not make blue into black if he made all things from nothing (which is just as illogical as square-triangles)
These are not why I don't believe in a deity, I don't believe in a deity because I haven't seen any evidence for a deity.

Torture is your word not mine. I think criminals should be punished, yes. What you answer exposes is the hypocrisy in your world view. You think you are qualified to judge who should be tortured and for how long. You have know problem looking at the sins of others and proposing the punishment (torture) for their crimes. But some how, the eternal, uncreated creator is not qualified in your book.
If the God of the bible exist, is He more or less qualified to judge than you? How much more? The one who designed DNA, put the laws of the universe into effect, designed the human eye, or you?
Come on now oh great and wise judge. You say you can send people to torture for two lifetimes because their crimes offend YOU, but suddenly God is some saddistic torture monster.

It shouldn't be impossible for god to lie, if mankind can lie why couldn't an almighty god tell a white lie, let alone make a circle-square, or make Babylonia orange? How could an almighty god not make blue into black if he made all things from nothing (which is just as illogical as square-triangles)
These are not why I don't believe in a deity, I don't believe in a deity because I haven't seen any evidence for a deity.

There is no square circle. It is not a thing. Nor is it a viable objection or question.
As far as changing something from blue to black. Why couldn't he? The problem in these questions is not God's ability, but in your ability to ask a real question.

Scienctists are claiming that everything came from nothing. And not just that, but that it it happened without a cause. So are you going to reject science?

Gabrielman wrote: I mean you just said God could turn truth into a lie in the first part there. That would make Him a sinner, to lie. Here is a link to a page on the main site that answers your question.

You say god can not lie because that would be a sin, but god murdered thousands of people according to the bible. If god can kill he can lie, if he can lie he can make space-time a jellybean, square circle, orange into pine trees, and butterscotch candy out of human flesh.

Also you did not address this:
If he can not do illogical things you are tampering with god's free will the same way you say god allows us to sin for the purpose of free will.

So the question is does god have limitless power, or is he limited to human logic? If he is limited to what humans can fathom, how could he logically make everything out of nothing, how could he logically have no beginning himself?

God has never murdered anyone. When a person kills an animal we don't call it murder. God the Father is NOT a human.

God is God. He is not like you. He is not you. God has the authority to create and destroy life. And being all knowing, he has the goods to judge righteously regardless of how smart you think you are.
Let me ask you. How much of all the knowledge in the universe would you say you know? Half, 25%, 1/10, an infinitesimal fraction?

I explained the lying thing to you already. If you are going to be stubborn so be it. When we say, "God can not lie," we are not talking about an ability, like 'can you lift 50 pounds.' We are talking about His nature. When you are deriving your questions from a starting point of absurdity, it would be absurd to expect reasonable answers. God doesn't merely 'tell the truth.' He IS THE TRUTH. The sooner you stop conceptualizing god as some bearded ornery old man walking around with a ball bat waiting to bust you over the head as soon as you sin, the sooner you will start getting real answers.

jlay wrote:

Two life times is more than enough even for the worst offenders in my eyes, is it okay to torture anyone forever in your eyes?

It shouldn't be impossible for god to lie, if mankind can lie why couldn't an almighty god tell a white lie, let alone make a circle-square, or make Babylonia orange? How could an almighty god not make blue into black if he made all things from nothing (which is just as illogical as square-triangles)
These are not why I don't believe in a deity, I don't believe in a deity because I haven't seen any evidence for a deity.

Torture is your word not mine. I think criminals should be punished, yes. What you answer exposes is the hypocrisy in your world view. You think you are qualified to judge who should be tortured and for how long. You have know problem looking at the sins of others and proposing the punishment (torture) for their crimes. But some how, the eternal, uncreated creator is not qualified in your book.
If the God of the bible exist, is He more or less qualified to judge than you? How much more? The one who designed DNA, put the laws of the universe into effect, designed the human eye, or you?
Come on now oh great and wise judge. You say you can send people to torture for two lifetimes because their crimes offend YOU, but suddenly God is some saddistic torture monster.

It shouldn't be impossible for god to lie, if mankind can lie why couldn't an almighty god tell a white lie, let alone make a circle-square, or make Babylonia orange? How could an almighty god not make blue into black if he made all things from nothing (which is just as illogical as square-triangles)
These are not why I don't believe in a deity, I don't believe in a deity because I haven't seen any evidence for a deity.

There is no square circle. It is not a thing. Nor is it a viable objection or question.
As far as changing something from blue to black. Why couldn't he? The problem in these questions is not God's ability, but in your ability to ask a real question.

Scienctists are claiming that everything came from nothing. And not just that, but that it it happened without a cause. So are you going to reject science?

Are people tortured for all of time in hell? You know what 1,000,000 years is compared to infinity? It is literally nothing.

I believe even the worst offenders will suffer no pain when death strikes, death makes us all equal (well we are in life but we like to think we're better than everyone else.)

Oh my inability to ask a real question determines what your god can do? how silly of me.

What is god? (if you want a real question)

If you take everything science gives you as the full picture than the kind of world you live in is entirely determined by time, go back far enough and the earth is flat (well curved), the sky is a concrete dome separating the upper waters from us, and everything is made of four elements, fire earth air and water.

Science knows nothing of the outside of the universe, claims nothing of it. Although some scientists have theorized that our universe was caused by a collision of two multiverses or other massive super cosmic forces. You say science claims the universe is without a cause, but you don't believe that, now do you?

jlay wrote:God has never murdered anyone. When a person kills an animal we don't call it murder. God the Father is NOT a human.

God is God. He is not like you. He is not you. God has the authority to create and destroy life. And being all knowing, he has the goods to judge righteously regardless of how smart you think you are.
Let me ask you. How much of all the knowledge in the universe would you say you know? Half, 25%, 1/10, an infinitesimal fraction?

I explained the lying thing to you already. If you are going to be stubborn so be it. When we say, "God can not lie," we are not talking about an ability, like 'can you lift 50 pounds.' We are talking about His nature. When you are deriving your questions from a starting point of absurdity, it would be absurd to expect reasonable answers. God doesn't merely 'tell the truth.' He IS THE TRUTH. The sooner you stop conceptualizing god as some bearded ornery old man walking around with a ball bat waiting to bust you over the head as soon as you sin, the sooner you will start getting real answers.

Oh, well I did some research, and although in part of the bible it says many times, Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27
With God all things are possible.

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Luke 18:27
The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

It also says in the bible that:

Hebrews 6:18
It was impossible for God to lie.

but also:

Judges 1:19
And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Mark 6:5
And he could there do no mighty work.

I claim no knowledge of reality as an absolute truth, I am agnostic. I have beliefs, but I don't claim the beliefs to be truth.

Is god only truth? I don't mean the only truth I mean is that all that god is? What exactly is god?

cslewislover wrote:qq, obviously God has set limits to the things He does. No, nothing is impossible with God, yet it is obvious that he set limits for himself in our realm of time and space. God is a God of order. No, He doesn't lie, he doesn't make squares into circles. You keep wanting to argue away God for your own reasons. If He made man and even angels with free will, and that was His purpose to leave them to exist, then He has integrity by keeping His word. Apparently in the scheme of things He also made blood sacrifice the only way to cover sins . . . that alone to us is not really understandable. Yet it is so true, that Jesus shed His blood to cover our sins. If it wasn't necessary in a way that we can't fathom right now, why would God do it? God "could just change creation later" to suit Him or us. Really? Apparently not. That's why we have order in the universe. God made things a certain way, including "life being in the blood," and the way things are needs to stay the way it is, at least while the current order is still the current order.

So how did you do that research? From an atheist site? You really read the bible yourself and picked those verses out? Did you read any commentaries about the verses you have trouble with? The verses you give do not negate all the other miracles in the bible. Why not? Why do you think? Do you really think that if the Jews or Christians thought something would make their God look like a liar or weak, they would include it in their scriptures? No, they included it since it's the truth, but the truth isn't that God is a liar or weak.

How would mankind know if god set limits and where those limits are, the whole story isn't in the bible after all. (as far as I can tell)

You view me as trying to argue away god. To me you all look like you're trying to argue a god into existence.

I'm just confused as to whether or not god is capable of lying, I understand he doesn't lie, but could he, if he felt the need or would it really be impossible for him to call a red pen black? Would god lying rip existence into a billion pieces or would god simply be unable to say the red pen was.......?

I never said that those verses negated anything.

We will have to talk about the blood thirsty part of your religion another time another place I feel like people might not take too kindly around these parts.

qqMOARpewpew wrote:
How would mankind know if god set limits and where those limits are, the whole story isn't in the bible after all. (as far as I can tell)

Why don't you try reading the New Testament a few times and think about it, then the Old Testament. Have you done that at all (as an adult)??? Or do you just read atheist sites???

You view me as trying to argue away god. To me you all look like you're trying to argue a god into existence.

Scriptures have been around for hundreds and thousands of years. I don't need to argue for God's existence. You don't seem to give credit to all those who have gone before us and experienced God.

We will have to talk about the blood thirsty part of your religion another time another place I feel like people might not take too kindly around these parts.

You are clearly not just an agnostic. You even said in a recent post you are an atheist, and by your comment here, and so much of what you have said, you are very very disrespectful and are very unopen to any REASON for anything that has to do with the God of the Jewish and Christian scriptures. That isn't simply an atheist, either - you don't want to just go your own way. There was one mod who wanted to see what else you had to say . . . I'm thinking you will not be here long unless you want to show that you are searching for some answers, instead of being here just to try to show people that you have more knowledge and morals than God himself.

It is very dangerous to take verses out of context to try and prove your point. I'll play along and show you where you have made some faulty assumptions. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT.

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.
In this context, this is referring to an actual event. The pregnancy of Elizabeth.
NO THING shall be impossible. A thing is a thing. A round square is NOT a thing.

Luke 18:27
The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

This verse is even easier to explain. IN fact I already have. THE THINGS. Things are things. A round square is NOT a thing.

Hebrews 6:18
It was impossible for God to lie.

Again, already explained. This is about the nature and character of God. Not about whether God is incapable of doing something. A seeing man can not look at an object with blind eyes. Being blind is not an ability. Seeing is. Having vision is not lacking blindness. You would never say that the seeing man is lacking someTHING by not being able to be blind. It is an absurdity.

Judges 1:19
And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Again context. Judah here is referring to the people of Judah. This isn't about the lack of God, but the lack of man. IT clearly says "they were unable."

Mark 6:5 is about Jesus. Not God the Father. If you grew up in Christianity you would know that Jesus was born a man. Jesus had to learn to speak, learn to walk. When it was cold, he got cold. When he worked all day, he was tired. When it rained, He got wet.
But also there is another explanation. If you read the entire verse, he did do mighty works there. He healed sick people.
I can remember when I was in college, I couldn't study at my house. Well I could. But I could always study more effectively if I was at the Library. If someone asked me, "why don't you study at home?" I would say, "I can't study there." If you are going to reject a bible verse it is important to examine it contextually, and with understanding of grammatical and linguistic patterns. My guess is this. You are approaching this all front loaded with negative info. Anyone can google 'objections,' and then cut and paste them here as if they just had some epiphany that is going to blow the bible out of the water. I'm curious how much objective study you've actually given to those verses.

Is god only truth? I don't mean the only truth I mean is that all that god is? What exactly is god?

The Bible shares a lot with us about who He is. I'm still learning. But I can tell you the basics. He is the creator. He is all-sufficient. He is Holy. He is eternal. He is truth. I'm glad you ask the question. It is critical, because when we throw accusations around about what God is doing without knowing who He is, then we set ourselves up. If God does judge and punish the wicked, it would be imperative to understand by what standard God will judge. It would be essential to understand His character as well. Let me give you an example. Let's say you joined the military and are about to go through boot camp. Who is the authority, you or the drill instructor. He will yell at you, order you to do things you do not want to do. Does it matter what your opinion of his instructions are? No. Does it matter if you understand why? I think so. You need to understand that HE is the authority, and that his methods have reason and purpose. Even if they conflict with your feelings, or views. How do you come into the good graces of the drill Sargeant? By yelling back at him. By defying him. By telling the other privates that they shouldn't listen to him? No. You obey.

I have beliefs, but I don't claim the beliefs to be truth.

Everyone has beliefs. Just as Jac pointed out earlier, we don't believe in spite of the evidence. We believe in keeping with the evidence. The bible says that those who seek Him with their whole heart, will seek Him and FIND Him. That is either true or it is not. So, what is seeking? Well if you truly, as you say, "claim no knowledge of reality as an absolute truth," then be consistent. Because it is very apparent that you do not hold that view towards the God of the Bible. You seem all too defiant in your approach. Seeking is an act of humility. It is not an act of stupidity. It is not an act where you check your brain at the door and drink the cool aid. Notning else can offer you this. NOTHING. Christianity is the ONLY faith that offers answers for those who seek.
If a stranger ran up to you and starting shaking their fist in your face and demanding something of you, would you welcome them? Of course not. I suggest that you not approach the God of all creation in this manner, if you desire answers.

Oh my inability to ask a real question determines what your god can do? how silly of me.

Don't be absurd. Your ability to ask a real question, determines whether you will get a real answer. Asking if God can create a round square is not a real question. As I have explained. You have asked some real questions, that I have addressed above. Surely you can see the difference.

cslewislover wrote:

qqMOARpewpew wrote:
How would mankind know if god set limits and where those limits are, the whole story isn't in the bible after all. (as far as I can tell)

Why don't you try reading the New Testament a few times and think about it, then the Old Testament. Have you done that at all (as an adult)??? Or do you just read atheist sites???

You view me as trying to argue away god. To me you all look like you're trying to argue a god into existence.

Scriptures have been around for hundreds and thousands of years. I don't need to argue for God's existence. You don't seem to give credit to all those who have gone before us and experienced God.

We will have to talk about the blood thirsty part of your religion another time another place I feel like people might not take too kindly around these parts.

You are clearly not just an agnostic. You even said in a recent post you are an atheist, and by your comment here, and so much of what you have said, you are very very disrespectful and are very unopen to any REASON for anything that has to do with the God of the Jewish and Christian scriptures. That isn't simply an atheist, either - you don't want to just go your own way. There was one mod who wanted to see what else you had to say . . . I'm thinking you will not be here long unless you want to show that you are searching for some answers, instead of being here just to try to show people that you have more knowledge and morals than God himself.

I haven't. I probably should as it has influenced western society and 85% of americans a great deal. Currently I'm reading on Astral Projection and the Nature of Reality, so give me some time.

Scriptures have been around for thousands of years yes, but there were different ideas of god before and after and during that. Why don't you give credit to all the people who didn't experience your version of god?

As I have said before I am currently an Agnostic Atheist Spiritualist. I Don't claim to know whether or not a deity exists, I do not believe in any deities, and spirituality doesn't require a deity, it is a human thing.

I claim less knowledge than you do, yet you seem to think I am claiming all knowledge of the universe. You simply take what I say and twist it because my world view is different from what you accept. I don't want you to accept my world view btw.