What? Because they say so? i fail to see how you make such a statement. They don't even know the true God. Allah of Islam is NOT Jehovah. They worship a false god and false revelation of who he is. So NO, they do NOT love god. This is highly uspect for you jac. I am sure an ancient Greek can claim to 'love' Zues. But it is not a response love. God loved us first, so we can only love him back. The object of their affection is not geniune, therefore their love is not genuine.
You are making a philosophical point about the
object of love. I'm going to assume here that you are not saying that they can't feel love itself, or that the love you feel is a different thing entirely than the love that they feel. You can't be, because if you are, then we aren't talking about "love" in both cases at all, but foo and moo; totally different things.
So you are saying that they can love just as much as a Christian can, but that they can't love GOD. You quarrel with the object. I have two responses to this.
The first is that the statement really doesn't have much force in our discussion. I argued that every feeling/desire/etc. that you experience as a Christian, they too can experience. So you simply agree with me here that they, too, can love.
The second is that I don't think you can say that they DON'T love the true God. Perhaps some have a view of God so warped that they don't love the true God at all but one of their own making (but if that is the case, how many Christians can be said to fall into the same trap), but it is evident that you believe that they can, in fact, love this object. Allow me to demonstrate. If an atheist says that "God-talk" is ultimately meaningless, because no one is really referring to the same thing--that "God" is such a nebulous term that it is ultimately meaningless ("a word that can mean anything means nothing")--how would you respond? Correcly, you would say that "God" is a very meaningful term, that it refers to the Supreme Being in whom All Perfections are found. If you and and atheist can talk about the same God, why can't you and a Muslim? In truth, you can, and you do. They simply think that He has revealed Himself in a different way than do you. But, AGAIN, if you want to argue the example, just shift it to the Jews. I've already referenced Rom. 10:12, in which Paul says explicitly that those unbelievers had a passion--a zeal--for the true God.
Bottom line, I think my point still stands. There is NOTHING in your EXPERIENCE that you can point to that belongs only to you as a Christian.
I'm not saying a murderer can't be saved. He most certainly can. I'm asking you, can we look at the evidence and see if there was a regenerate work prior. Apparently you site some evidences that would indicate we CAN say if one is not saved. Seems contradictory to me.
Plenty of people think they believe the Gospel when in fact they have believed something Jesus never said, i.e., turn from all your sins/ask Me into your heart/give your life to Me, etc. and you will be saved.
That is really the gist of what I am driving at.
We are specifically told by Christ that the thief was regenerate and promised salvation. we don't have to guess. Moses is listed in the hall of faith, indicating he was. When he murdered that man, I would tend to suspect, no, he was not. Hebrews 11:13 even says, "All these people were still living by faith when they died." David is mentioned among those as 'others'.
I think I didn't make my point clear enough. You asked if a person could get saved and then go commit murder, not if a murderer could be saved. David was a "saved" man WHO COMMITED MURDER. Yet you would never say that he was not saved at that time (I hope). Thus, I must answer your question, YES--a person can get saved and then go out and murder someone. Would you agree? If so, then what was the point of your question?
Can people come to a false security of salvation?
Of course. People do all the time when they believe a false Gospel (Matt 7:14ff).
Does simply intellectually accepting Christ appropriate a regenerate work in one's life?
Believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God apprpriates a regenerate work in one's life (John 20:31). That's called salvation by faith alone, my friend. Either you believe that, or you call Jesus a liar.
Apparently it is OK to take verses that speak towards salvation out of context and apply them to your thinking. But how amiss would we be to take "Ask whatever you wish in my name," out of context and apply that to our lives.
Show me where the context of Gen. 15:6; John 3:16; 5:24; 6:37; 11:24-27; 20:31; Acts 16:31; etc. teach that something other than belief is necessary for salvation and I will concede thoroughly.
AS best I can tell, you suggest that salvation and repentance are not rooted together.
I don't suggest. I say that explicitly.
Question first, how do you define repent?
Second, can you show me in any of the verses just mentioned where repentance is required for salvation? Jesus said EVERYONE who believes has eternal life. EVERYONE. Are you saying that if someone believes but doesn't repent, then they aren't saved? So are you saying Jesus was wrong, that NOT everyone believes, but only those who believe and also repent? That, my friend, is called Andy's Gospel--and man must believe, AND HE must repent. I don't believe Andy's Gospel (which is really no gospel at all, according to someone more studied than me). I believe Jesus'.
I can not read the bible and see how anyone can be saved apart from repentance that comes from the kindness of God.
I gave you several verses that can help you do that. In the meantime, would you be willing to give me some verses that say as explicitly that a person must repent to be saved from Hell?
I will admit that there are many distortions on what repentance is at its most basic definition. The thief of the cross, repented. We know in one text that BOTH convicts were hurling insults at Jesus. Something happened within the thief that brought him to a change of heart, and had him confess that Jesus was the King. It was this change of heart/mind that allowed him to appropiate the gift of salvation. Is that not repentance??
If repentance is only defined as a change of mind, then it is interchangable with belief--to go from a state of disbelief to belief. In that case, it is not A condition of salvation, but THE condition of salvation. But your next statement implies that you see more in repentance than a change from disbelief to belief:
Repentance is a forsaking of an old way to embrace a new.
Fine, but what "way" must a person forsake to be saved? The way of disbelief (I'm fine with that). The way of trying to save himself (I'm fine with that). The way of sin? Absolutely not.
If we do not believe in the existence of God, we would have to repent of that to come to Christ. In this case the act of repentance may involve a myriad of different things that lead that person to change their mind, and open themselves for salvation. If one does not think that sin puts himself at enmity with God, he needs to repent of that mindset. Paul said, by the law is the knowledge of sin. So, this person might come to repentance by the preaching of God's holiness, the law, and the utter sinfulness of man. He may then rightfully change his mind to acknowledge that he in fact needs a savior. Without these things, the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who perish.
I'm quite happy to agree that a person must understand "the bad news" before they can understand the Gospel. If you don't see your need for salvation, then you can hardly say in any real way that you can believe in Jesus for it. But what that has to do with whether or not works do or don't follow from salvation is totally lost on me.
If the man robbing the store comes to believe that Jesus was the son of God, etc. but he never knows why he needs a savior, then how can appropiate the gift of salvation. Repentance is a genuine response to God. I know there are a lot of Baptist preachers who have tried to reduce this word to a specific meaning, and have done much damage.
It depends on what you mean by "believe that Jesus was the Son of God." Inherent in the meaning of the word "Christ" is the one who provides eternal salvation. If you do not see your need for salvation, then you are not logically capable of believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. If he DOES see his need and believes in Christ, then he is saved, even if he then goes out and robs a store, complete with murder. WORKS HAVE
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION, and THANK GOD for that.
I have little doubt that Judas believed that Jesus was the Messiah, but did he appropriate the gift of salvaiton? Pretty obvious that he did not. And God wove that into the fulfilling of the plan.
For the record, I don't have any problem believing that Judas was saved . . .
I have broken every commandment either in word thought or deed. I have hated. And I have also experienced the deep conviction of harboring such thoughts, and grieving the Holy Spirit. I KNOW that where I have been unfaithful, he is faithful, and that He can cleanse me from all unrighteousness. That is why I do not want to use and abuse the grace of God for an occassion of the flesh.
Fine. Then you agree with my previous statement. A man can get saved--genuinely saved--and go on to commit murder and every other atrocious deed imaginable. You yourself have done it. Why, then, do you take exception to the man who gets saved and then robs and murders?
Salvation is a heart matter.
It's a belief matter. Do you believe that God told the Truth concerning His Son.
PS - Note: when you are saved — no one is able to snatch you out from God's hands — not even you. If you are thinking you have lost your salvation remember this: Do you believe that Jesus is more than able to keep you forever saved? If yes — as is your faith so be it to you. If no — sorry — he'll never let you go and will seek you out wherever you stray and lift you up and bear you back to the flock. Such is the Good Shepherd.
Ok help me with this one. A person, by all evidence has trusted the gospel. Over time they then go into a reprobate life. they don't worry about their salvation and whether they lost it. In fact, they reject the whole notion. Have you met people like this?
Yes, I have. Several, actually. And I have absolutely no problem telling them that they are just as saved as me. Tell me, why would you possibly have a problem telling someone that? I find it far more likely that they would come back to a God who did not reject them when they rejected Him than they would to a God who condemned their way back into His loving arms.
It's amazing to me, J, how many people hate the doctrine of eternal security. They love the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints. Sure, they say, faith alone, yada, yada. But if I KEEP ON BELIEVING (etc), THEN I get to go to heaven. It's a back-loaded works-based gospel. But eternal security--salvation with NO strings attached? That is far too radical for most. How dare God save someone who mocks Him when I lived my life in dedication to Him?
Seriously--when we come to grips with the Gospel--with the absolutely uncompromising nature of the Gospel, that we are saved by faith ALONE, and that NOTHING we can do will change that, not even our rejection of God--our entire approach to life changes. Certainly our approach to God does. Salvation is by faith ALONE ALONE ALONE ALONE ALONE.
Now, here's the scary part to it, J. Since salvation is by faith alone, and most people hate that doctrine--most don't believe it; they believe it is by continued faith or by a special type of faith that goes on to produce works--how many people have actually believed that Gospel message? How many people have actually trusted in Christ alone with complete disregard for themselves and their own merit, past, present,
or future? I submit to you very few. I submit to you that the "Gospel" most people trust is something like, "Give your life to Christ/turn from your sins/ask Jesus into your heart/etc." . . . they've never heard, and never believed, the simple Gospel message of John 3:16.
For God so loved the world that He gave His One and Only Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish, but HAS EVERLASTING LIFE.
Faith alone, my friend. The only evidence one is capable of producing that they are saved is the confession that they believe the Gospel. No other evidence has any bearing one way or another, either positive or negative.
