Evidence for God from Science

Muslims don't want to know God's will? Muslims don't love God? Mormons don't want to see people won to Christ? They don't want to understand His Word? Atheist husbands don't want to die to selves for their wife?

In all my study of Islam there is little to convince me that a Muslim has a love relationship with God.
Mormons are motivated by their selfish desires to earn salvation through works.
You lost me on the atheist/wife thing.

Great. Inner city kids are just as human as suburban kids and cultured adults. Their sin nature is no worse or better than yours or mine or anyone else's. As far as them "revering" the things you do, tell me how they want to be treated. Do they want to be murdered, stolen from, etc.? Of course not. Then, take it a bit deeper. WHY do they, for instance, join a gang? Because they want to be accepted. Every "hard" thing they revere is an attempt to fill a very real--and righteous--desire.

Now, let's take that even further. Let's say that in YOUR case, these people really have no desire to do right (contrary to Romans 2:14ff). Fine. Are you saying that EVERYONE reveres being a murder, thief, gang banger, etc.? Obviously not. Then the fact that some people don't proves my point. People desire righteousness.

Very good points. But wanting to be accetped, Is that righteousness, or a desire for righteousness? I have a hard time seeing someone join a gang as an indication that they really desire righteousness.
The plight of Inner City kids reveals the reality of everyone's condition. it is just more evident in these areas. How I want to be treated does not mean I desire righteouness. Everyone selfishly wants to be treated right. What is the heart motive for not wanting to be robbed? righteousness or self centeredness.

The issue I addressed is the nature of the desire. Not their origin. If we are to loo at people and say that they are or are not saved based on their behavior, then all we have to look at is the action. I asked how our actions or desires are different from an atheist's. The answer is that they aren't, beyond the fact that we know WHERE they come from. But surely you recognize that there are Christians who are not trained in theology who don't understand that their desires come from God. And surely you recognize there are non-Christian theists who are perfectly capable of crediting God with those same things. So, any way you cut it, none of this answers my question, and my original challenge still stands.

Let me ask you a question. Say this fellow hears the gospel. He believes that Jesus lived, died and rose from the dead. On his way home he stops at a convenience store robs the store, shoots the clerk dead. Was he really saved?

In all my study of Islam there is little to convince me that a Muslim has a love relationship with God.

I know Muslims who deeply love God. Or if you want to argue the example, let me just point you to Romans 10:2 instead.

Mormons are motivated by their selfish desires to earn salvation through works.

You are aware that Mormons don't believe in Hell, right? Do you REALLY believe that every single Mormon on the face of the planet doesn't care a bit for the souls of others but is only trying to score points with God?

You lost me on the atheist/wife thing.

It's a basic point on altruism. Atheists can, and often do, put the needs of others before themselves.

The point in all these, again, is that any particular thing to which you point to say "This is something that only I, as a Christian, can desire/practice, because God has enabled it to me; and in fact, all Christians will desire/practice this!" can be shown to exist in non-believers as well. Thus, again, your "things of God" is entirely too nebulous to have any practical theological value.

Very good points. But wanting to be accetped, Is that righteousness, or a desire for righteousness? I have a hard time seeing someone join a gang as an indication that they really desire righteousness.

Again, are you only equating righteousness with morality? If so, there is less doubt than before that they desire to be moral. It is evident by their behaviors. When you ask them WHY they do such evil things, they always have a reason. They seek to justify their actions, usually by blaming society. They would not justify if they did not seek to be righteous. You know that better than most. It is a basic tenent of the moral argument.

The plight of Inner City kids reveals the reality of everyone's condition. it is just more evident in these areas. How I want to be treated does not mean I desire righteouness. Everyone selfishly wants to be treated right. What is the heart motive for not wanting to be robbed? righteousness or self centeredness.

Which is the point I was making about gangs. Everyone wants to be accepted, so they will do whatever necessary, often going to extremes, do meet that need--it is a selfish desire that is rooted in a very real desire that is itself rooted in their being made in the image of God.

Let me ask you a question. Say this fellow hears the gospel. He believes that Jesus lived, died and rose from the dead. On his way home he stops at a convenience store robs the store, shoots the clerk dead. Was he really saved?

Was David really saved? What about Moses? The thief on the cross?

Plenty of murderers in the Bible are really saved. In the case of David, he murdered AFTER he was "saved." He murdered a man AFTER being described as having God's own heart. So in your case, if a man believes the Gospel and then murders a store clerk, then yes, he is saved. Why would you have a problem with that?

In fact, let me ask you a more basic question. Suppose a man believes the Gospel and then hates someone, even for only a moment. Was he really saved? Have YOU ever hated someone even for a moment, J, because if so, then YOU committed murder in your heart. What makes you so different from the man in your scenario?

This is what I brought up in my original reply to this thread. This kind of view of the Gospel can cause people to become just like the Pharisees Jesus condemned. Now, I'm not saying YOU are like them. You haven't answered my question yet. But let me suggest to you that if you truly believe that a man who murders wasn't REALLY saved, and yet you, having hated, believe that YOU are saved, then you are most definitely in danger of being that Pharisee. But I know you better. You wouldn't go down that road, and if you felt like you had been, you would immediately turn from that . . .

Let me add to Jac's comments:

Muslims, Mormons, etc and etc, rely on self works and in essence are telling God that their deeds and works are better than God's way of grace and works…

God shows grace on his terms — not ours. There is a reason for this — would anyone like to take a stab at this???-
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Just to clarify my point, BW, I'm NOT saying that everyone desires to be justified by faith alone. I am saying that everyone desires to be justified. I am saying that everyone--Christians and non-Christians--desire the same things.

So while, certainly, all other relgions--and some forms of Christianity--try to justify themselves by their works, the underlying question is, 'why do they desire to be justified?' The answer is that all are made in God's image and understand the need for righteousness and a right relationship with God. Such a desire is NOT limited to the Christian, and thus, we cannot point to said desire as evidence that one is "truly saved."

Jac3510 wrote:Just to clarify my point, BW, I'm NOT saying that everyone desires to be justified by faith alone. I am saying that everyone desires to be justified. I am saying that everyone--Christians and non-Christians--desire the same things.

So while, certainly, all other relgions--and some forms of Christianity--try to justify themselves by their works, the underlying question is, 'why do they desire to be justified?' The answer is that all are made in God's image and understand the need for righteousness and a right relationship with God. Such a desire is NOT limited to the Christian, and thus, we cannot point to said desire as evidence that one is "truly saved."

Good point Jac - I was implying the samething as you but from a different angle

My next post will be more thoughts to ponder - not so much written for or to you Jac but rather for the readers...
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A Little More for any Reader to Ponder...

Part and parcel of salvation by grace is sanctification's inner work. This is not an option but rather the work of God.

Someone just saved — robs a store on the way home from a revival meeting and kills the clerk is sent to jail and then the sanctification begins in earnest that is, if he really believed or just believed (Luke 8:12, 14, 15). Only God knows the answer — not us.

Psalms 73:27 holds a truth as well as John 6:66. There are Disciples who truly believe in Christ and then there are those that do not. You can be a disciple but not believe and thus are not known by Christ (Matthew 7:21, 22, 23 note also John 6:29).

This does not mean you can lose your salvation. Fact is, a person never really believed. It goes to show how a person can delude themselves into thinking they are a disciple and saved when they never were. Luke 9:23, 24, 25, 26 is sobering.

I personally do not want to stand before Christ in that stricter judgment I will ultimately face (James 3:1) and be found guilty of not telling a new believer what they can expect after they are saved and found only giving them one shoe of the gospel of peace and telling them — all is well.

Yes we all stumble and the mark of sanctification is learning from our failures, stumbling, battles between flesh and Spirit, and overcoming. God knows who are his people and who is not. If he ushers one into his kingdom immediately after they truly believed — so be it. Why should I complain about the duration of time I have labored in the field for the same wage as the departed?

He who began a good work in you will complete it like it or not. People who truly believe change and I doubt they would rob a liquor store and kill a clerk after their conversion at a revival meeting…but again — understanding what I know about God he will work through all things for good for those that love him, in whom he predestined to be conformed into the image of his Son…the person may have sinned but in jail … there's a work for God to be done…

What's missing from easy believism is that God predestined those who really believe will be conformed — fashioned into the image of his Son, Jesus Christ. A person my die soon after conversion and be changed upon entering heaven as that is the wage set forth by God despite ones shortness or longevity on earth. Give the opportunity to live, change will happen, and they will be transformed with thier warts removed one wart at a time.

We can speculate about such people if they really believed or deluded themselves. You cannot judge them if they sin but you can live like a Christian and not have to sin! Is there a real difference from those in the world and those who belong to God? If we can't tell any difference, and the gospel we proclaim produces no ability to tell — a tree is known by its fruit.

Titus 3:8, “The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.” ESV

PS - Note: when you are saved — no one is able to snatch you out from God's hands — not even you. If you are thinking you have lost your salvation remember this: Do you believe that Jesus is more than able to keep you forever saved? If yes — as is your faith so be it to you. If no — sorry — he'll never let you go and will seek you out wherever you stray and lift you up and bear you back to the flock. Such is the Good Shepherd.

We do not judge our salvation by our works but rather — Christ in us — the expectation of Glory — He works in us and cleans us up, makes us whole, instructs us on how to overcome through our failures and stumbling and as we go along we find ourselves doing good and dispensing it as God so wills.

Here is a little paraphrased play on the text of John 21:15: Jesus speaking - “Simon son / daughter of Jonah, always running from God, do you Love Me more than these sorts of things you always run back too? How long till you tire and come to me all ye who are weary in the labor of these sorts of things — come to Me (Christ Jesus) and I'll give you rest.”

Psalms 73:21-22, 23, 24, 25, 26

Do you believe that Jesus is more than able to keep you forever saved? If yes — as is your faith so be it to you. If no — sorry — he'll never let you go and will seek you out wherever you stray and lift you up and bear you back to the flock. Such is the Good Shepherd.

Now for those that do not believe — well, they depart because they never really believed to be saved as you…

John 6:37, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69…

Psalms 73:27, 28

2 Corinthians 1:3, 4
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Another great post B.W.. Very informative. I do not seek any authority or position in the church myself except that of a supporting member. I like to share with people but it's in small groups or one on one. I know that's where God wants me even after being a Christian for 25 years. It really isn't a contest to see who can be the biggest pastor. It's a contest to see who cares more about what God wants for them than what they want for themself.

B.W.
Excellent!!

I know Muslims who deeply love God. Or if you want to argue the example, let me just point you to Romans 10:2 instead.

What? Because they say so? i fail to see how you make such a statement. They don't even know the true God. Allah of Islam is NOT Jehovah. They worship a false god and false revelation of who he is. So NO, they do NOT love god. This is highly suspect for you jac. I am sure an ancient Greek can claim to 'love' Zues. But it is not a response love. God loved us first, so we can only love him back. The object of their affection is not geniune, therefore their love is not genuine.

Was David really saved? What about Moses? The thief on the cross?

I'm not saying a murderer can't be saved. He most certainly can. I'm asking you, can we look at the evidence and see if there was a regenerate work prior. Apparently you site some evidences that would indicate we CAN say if one is not saved. Seems contradictory to me.

Plenty of people think they believe the Gospel when in fact they have believed something Jesus never said, i.e., turn from all your sins/ask Me into your heart/give your life to Me, etc. and you will be saved.

That is really the gist of what I am driving at.
We are specifically told by Christ that the thief was regenerate and promised salvation. we don't have to guess. Moses is listed in the hall of faith, indicating he was. When he murdered that man, I would tend to suspect, no, he was not. Hebrews 11:13 even says, "All these people were still living by faith when they died." David is mentioned among those as 'others'.


Can people come to a false security of salvation? Does simply intellectually accepting Christ appropriate a regenerate work in one's life? Apparently it is OK to take verses that speak towards salvation out of context and apply them to your thinking. But how amiss would we be to take "Ask whatever you wish in my name," out of context and apply that to our lives. AS best I can tell, you suggest that salvation and repentance are not rooted together. I can not read the bible and see how anyone can be saved apart from repentance that comes from the kindness of God. I will admit that there are many distortions on what repentance is at its most basic definition. The thief of the cross, repented. We know in one text that BOTH convicts were hurling insults at Jesus. Something happened within the thief that brought him to a change of heart, and had him confess that Jesus was the King. It was this change of heart/mind that allowed him to appropiate the gift of salvation. Is that not repentance?? Repentance is a forsaking of an old way to embrace a new. If we do not believe in the existence of God, we would have to repent of that to come to Christ. In this case the act of repentance may involve a myriad of different things that lead that person to change their mind, and open themselves for salvation. If one does not think that sin puts himself at enmity with God, he needs to repent of that mindset. Paul said, by the law is the knowledge of sin. So, this person might come to repentance by the preaching of God's holiness, the law, and the utter sinfulness of man. He may then rightfully change his mind to acknowledge that he in fact needs a savior. Without these things, the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who perish. If the man robbing the store comes to believe that Jesus was the son of God, etc. but he never knows why he needs a savior, then how can appropiate the gift of salvation. Repentance is a genuine response to God. I know there are a lot of Baptist preachers who have tried to reduce this word to a specific meaning, and have done much damage.

I have little doubt that Judas believed that Jesus was the Messiah, but did he appropriate the gift of salvaiton? Pretty obvious that he did not. And God wove that into the fulfilling of the plan.

In fact, let me ask you a more basic question. Suppose a man believes the Gospel and then hates someone, even for only a moment. Was he really saved? Have YOU ever hated someone even for a moment, J, because if so, then YOU committed murder in your heart. What makes you so different from the man in your scenario?

I have broken every commandment either in word thought or deed. I have hated. And I have also experienced the deep conviction of harboring such thoughts, and grieving the Holy Spirit. I KNOW that where I have been unfaithful, he is faithful, and that He can cleanse me from all unrighteousness. That is why I do not want to use and abuse the grace of God for an occassion of the flesh.

Salvation is a heart matter.

Here is a good one from B.W.

PS - Note: when you are saved — no one is able to snatch you out from God's hands — not even you. If you are thinking you have lost your salvation remember this: Do you believe that Jesus is more than able to keep you forever saved? If yes — as is your faith so be it to you. If no — sorry — he'll never let you go and will seek you out wherever you stray and lift you up and bear you back to the flock. Such is the Good Shepherd.

Ok help me with this one. A person, by all evidence has trusted the gospel. Over time they then go into a reprobate life. they don't worry about their salvation and whether they lost it. In fact, they reject the whole notion. Have you met people like this?

Jac, I'll keep reading and studying, thanks for your input.

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Let me add a bit more to Ponder and attempt to clarify the positions posed. Please note, no one has to agree with the conclusions I discovered…

Let's go back to jlay's comment about a new convert who immediately after conversion leaves the meeting, stops by a convenience store, robs it, and kills the clerk in the process. Was this person really saved?

Hypothetically, it could be possible but realistically not plausible. The person could have left believing he was a disciple of Christ but did not really believe in Christ. During the time spent incarcerated in jail, this individual may later come to believe in Christ because the seeds sown during the revival meeting were planted. In Jail, the Lord works on the person, transforming that soul's life after the person first believed.

Or this person could have really believed but fell into sin so fast that God will transform that person in jail and use that person in that jail as a testimony of a changed life. Fact is, we do not know. Only God does in such circumstance as this.

Likewise, just because a person belongs to a Christian family or grew up in a specific church group does not make them a Christian. They may agree with the teachings of Jesus as they have learned and think it nice to follow Christ by association but they do not really believe.

You can call them disciples who do not really believe as their lives show they do not live what they say about their believing in Christ. When push comes to shove, they stand back away from Christ and follow the ways of the world. There are those that associate with Christ and delude themselves into thinking they are saved. Parable of the Sower speaks of such types of people who hear but do not hear and see but do not see.

I think these are the types of people jlay is speaking about. They are not saved as there is no fruit. Now what I am hearing jac say is this: just believe and that's it. It does not matter if anyone shows fruit or not. A person is saved because they just believed; since anyone can do good deeds and imitate moral change you cannot tell a Christian from anyone else in the world. Thus making sanctification and good deeds merely optional in ones Christian walk.

(Is this correct you guys does this sum up your positions or am I off base? — let me know so I at least can repent…)

I think what I am hearing jlay correctly say in his objection to jac's position is that a person who believes in Christ will bear fruit of a changed life, that they are in the growth process of sanctification, and will show good works as evidence that they really do believe in Christ (These good works are a byproduct and come natural and not coerced by guilt)

What I hear jac say is that the growth process of sanctification, and doing good is optional.

My position is this: a tree is known by its fruit.

To really truthfully believe means to live by what you believe. If one believes in Christ Jesus, they will live in accord with Christ having his / her life changed day by day in countless ways. They learn from mistakes, owe up to wrongs, and learn to trust Christ to deliver them, rescue them, and move them on from faith to faith and glory to glory. They eventually mature in Christ if granted mortal longevity.

Let's use an actual person in an example: A real honest to goodness serial killer who was a client of mine when I worked in a correctional facility. During the process of incarceration and trail, I had the opportunity to speak with him often.

He claims that he believed in Christ as a child. He can quote and knows more scriptures by heart and better than most preachers do. Yet, I would dare say he was possessed. You could feel the evil about him. Other staff reported feeling creeped out around him or sensed deep dark malice about him.

If he did believe in Christ as a child — according to how I am understanding jac's position is (correct me if I am wrong jac), this person would be saved, heaven bound, despite his murderous rampage. Sanctification is optional, so are doing good deeds. Doesn't matter what he did as long as he first believed.

Those that knew and worked with this person behind the safety of Administrative Segregation protocol know full well he was never saved. He was always deluding himself thinking he is a Christian hiding behind bible verses while his acts made a mockery of Christ by his manipulating God's goodness and grace to his own advantage.

One day, I called him on this and he stated something to this affect: that if God will not let him into heaven because he first believed then this would prove God a hypocrite and it did not matter to him if he did because God was obliged to annihilate him into non-existence. He did say after this, “I've gotten what I wanted and nothing anyone can do about it...”

After his conviction and days before being sent to the big house, he made a shank, hid in his cell in an attempt to kill a female guard but was foiled due to well trained staff. “I've gotten what I wanted and nothing anyone can do about it,” he said.

So jac, is this person saved bearing the mark of a true Christian because he believed in Christ? This is a real person and not a hypothetical one.

I have discovered over the years that there are many who claim they first believe but bear no fruit at all. When issues come because of the gospel — they stand away from Christ and live in full accord with the world. I call these false converts, as did Charles Finney, and also add they are false disciples who never really believed and thus never were saved. In my opinion, these are the ones written about in Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:29, 2 Thess 2:3

I also find that other Christians interpret these types of persons as real Christian who have lost their salvation by willful walking away from it. However, from the evidence of their lives, they never were won over to Christ to begin with and thus were never truly saved in the fullest sense of the word. Such are like the “Free Lunch Gospel” disciples who walked away from Christ instead of feasting upon His word having their lives transformed out of darkness into his glorious light. (John 6:37, 40, 51, 53, 54, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69 )

As I stated in prior Post with a little more edit:

What's missing from easy believism is that God predestined those 'who really believe' will really be conformed — fashioned into the image of his Son, Jesus Christ as it has been predestined…

A person my die soon after conversion and be changed upon entering heaven as that is the wage set forth by God despite ones shortness or longevity on earth. Given the opportunity of longevity, change will happen, and they will be transformed with their warts removed one wart at a time.

We can speculate about such people if they really believed or just deluding themselves. It is true; you cannot judge them by sin, or by their good deeds (1 John 1:8, 10). However, they do set their personal course for life in accord to what they believe and live by that standard — it is not Christ (1 John 3:2, 3, 10 - 1 John 4:4, 5, 6)

Can we tell really a difference from those in the world and those who belong to God? If we can't tell any difference, and the gospel message we proclaim produces no ability to tell, well, then a tree is known by its fruit.

(1 John 2:15, 16, 17 — 1 John 1:9 )
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B. W. wrote:I have discovered over the years that there are many who claim they first believe but bear no fruit at all. When issues come because of the gospel — they stand away from Christ and live in full accord with the world. I call these false converts, as did Charles Finney, and also add they are false disciples who never really believed and thus never were saved. In my opinion, these are the ones written about in Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:29, 2 Thess 2:3

So where does that leave assurance of salvation?

B.W. and Byblos. Thanks for sharing.

I think we can all agree that we can not look at the deeds of a person and conclude that they ARE saved. Yes, just because someone is acting like a Christian does NOT meen they are saved. But does that mean that deeds are completely useless as a testimony? What if we said the miracles of Christ played no evidence in identifying Him as the Kingly Messiah to the Jews?

This would seem to go against what I am suggesting, but I don't think it does. Romans 8:16 "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God." As best I can tell Jac implies there is really nothing within that would indicate we are his. That anyone can experience these things. I think I showed with Muslims that they can NOT love God, and adhere to Islam. It's kind of like going to a movie, and the story is great. You feel the emotions, you even cry. But, the story was fiction. Never happened. And no matter how real your feelings may have been, the source of those things was in fact counterfeit.

Is there something going on in a convert that is genuine? Even though the world may have counterfeits. They may appear similar, but they are corrupt at the root. Isn't that what the ruler of this world does? Deceives.

Now, is it wrong to think that we can examine the deeds of a person and conclude they are not saved? i certainly think we should proceed with EXTREME caution. When we judge we should only judge knowing that we will be judged the same way. Certainly we can look at the actions of a person and conclude that their actions are in line or out of line with Christian living. Is 'sin' itself an indication that one is NOT saved. Obviously no. God can save anyone, even me. And a Christian can most definately sin after they are saved. We know that Christians experience temptation to sin, and we also know they have been given the gift of the HS to help them stand against such temptations. So is there a difference between stumbling into sin, and living emersed in a sinful life? Asking, not stating.

And I totally understand Jacs points even though I don't agree with all. We should be very careful as Paul warned. (Rom 2: 20-23) Our claim that we are 'saved' should never be because we have the deeds to prove it. Although James seems to indicate that inward living faith will result in outward obedience. Salvation is always the work of Christ, appropriated by our faith in this work. Once this faith is appropriated we have a new relationship to God and a new relationship to sin. We are no longer a slave to sin. Jac sited the article regarding finding true North. Well in the unregenerate heart what is North on their compass? Is it not self? And what is true north for the saved? Is it not Christ himself. Does having this compass produce a real change within the believer??

What is belief?

What? Because they say so? i fail to see how you make such a statement. They don't even know the true God. Allah of Islam is NOT Jehovah. They worship a false god and false revelation of who he is. So NO, they do NOT love god. This is highly uspect for you jac. I am sure an ancient Greek can claim to 'love' Zues. But it is not a response love. God loved us first, so we can only love him back. The object of their affection is not geniune, therefore their love is not genuine.

You are making a philosophical point about the object of love. I'm going to assume here that you are not saying that they can't feel love itself, or that the love you feel is a different thing entirely than the love that they feel. You can't be, because if you are, then we aren't talking about "love" in both cases at all, but foo and moo; totally different things.

So you are saying that they can love just as much as a Christian can, but that they can't love GOD. You quarrel with the object. I have two responses to this.

The first is that the statement really doesn't have much force in our discussion. I argued that every feeling/desire/etc. that you experience as a Christian, they too can experience. So you simply agree with me here that they, too, can love.

The second is that I don't think you can say that they DON'T love the true God. Perhaps some have a view of God so warped that they don't love the true God at all but one of their own making (but if that is the case, how many Christians can be said to fall into the same trap), but it is evident that you believe that they can, in fact, love this object. Allow me to demonstrate. If an atheist says that "God-talk" is ultimately meaningless, because no one is really referring to the same thing--that "God" is such a nebulous term that it is ultimately meaningless ("a word that can mean anything means nothing")--how would you respond? Correcly, you would say that "God" is a very meaningful term, that it refers to the Supreme Being in whom All Perfections are found. If you and and atheist can talk about the same God, why can't you and a Muslim? In truth, you can, and you do. They simply think that He has revealed Himself in a different way than do you. But, AGAIN, if you want to argue the example, just shift it to the Jews. I've already referenced Rom. 10:12, in which Paul says explicitly that those unbelievers had a passion--a zeal--for the true God.

Bottom line, I think my point still stands. There is NOTHING in your EXPERIENCE that you can point to that belongs only to you as a Christian.

I'm not saying a murderer can't be saved. He most certainly can. I'm asking you, can we look at the evidence and see if there was a regenerate work prior. Apparently you site some evidences that would indicate we CAN say if one is not saved. Seems contradictory to me.
Plenty of people think they believe the Gospel when in fact they have believed something Jesus never said, i.e., turn from all your sins/ask Me into your heart/give your life to Me, etc. and you will be saved.
That is really the gist of what I am driving at.
We are specifically told by Christ that the thief was regenerate and promised salvation. we don't have to guess. Moses is listed in the hall of faith, indicating he was. When he murdered that man, I would tend to suspect, no, he was not. Hebrews 11:13 even says, "All these people were still living by faith when they died." David is mentioned among those as 'others'.

I think I didn't make my point clear enough. You asked if a person could get saved and then go commit murder, not if a murderer could be saved. David was a "saved" man WHO COMMITED MURDER. Yet you would never say that he was not saved at that time (I hope). Thus, I must answer your question, YES--a person can get saved and then go out and murder someone. Would you agree? If so, then what was the point of your question?

Can people come to a false security of salvation?

Of course. People do all the time when they believe a false Gospel (Matt 7:14ff).

Does simply intellectually accepting Christ appropriate a regenerate work in one's life?

Believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God apprpriates a regenerate work in one's life (John 20:31). That's called salvation by faith alone, my friend. Either you believe that, or you call Jesus a liar.

Apparently it is OK to take verses that speak towards salvation out of context and apply them to your thinking. But how amiss would we be to take "Ask whatever you wish in my name," out of context and apply that to our lives.

Show me where the context of Gen. 15:6; John 3:16; 5:24; 6:37; 11:24-27; 20:31; Acts 16:31; etc. teach that something other than belief is necessary for salvation and I will concede thoroughly.

AS best I can tell, you suggest that salvation and repentance are not rooted together.

I don't suggest. I say that explicitly.

Question first, how do you define repent?

Second, can you show me in any of the verses just mentioned where repentance is required for salvation? Jesus said EVERYONE who believes has eternal life. EVERYONE. Are you saying that if someone believes but doesn't repent, then they aren't saved? So are you saying Jesus was wrong, that NOT everyone believes, but only those who believe and also repent? That, my friend, is called Andy's Gospel--and man must believe, AND HE must repent. I don't believe Andy's Gospel (which is really no gospel at all, according to someone more studied than me). I believe Jesus'.

I can not read the bible and see how anyone can be saved apart from repentance that comes from the kindness of God.

I gave you several verses that can help you do that. In the meantime, would you be willing to give me some verses that say as explicitly that a person must repent to be saved from Hell?

I will admit that there are many distortions on what repentance is at its most basic definition. The thief of the cross, repented. We know in one text that BOTH convicts were hurling insults at Jesus. Something happened within the thief that brought him to a change of heart, and had him confess that Jesus was the King. It was this change of heart/mind that allowed him to appropiate the gift of salvation. Is that not repentance??

If repentance is only defined as a change of mind, then it is interchangable with belief--to go from a state of disbelief to belief. In that case, it is not A condition of salvation, but THE condition of salvation. But your next statement implies that you see more in repentance than a change from disbelief to belief:

Repentance is a forsaking of an old way to embrace a new.

Fine, but what "way" must a person forsake to be saved? The way of disbelief (I'm fine with that). The way of trying to save himself (I'm fine with that). The way of sin? Absolutely not.

If we do not believe in the existence of God, we would have to repent of that to come to Christ. In this case the act of repentance may involve a myriad of different things that lead that person to change their mind, and open themselves for salvation. If one does not think that sin puts himself at enmity with God, he needs to repent of that mindset. Paul said, by the law is the knowledge of sin. So, this person might come to repentance by the preaching of God's holiness, the law, and the utter sinfulness of man. He may then rightfully change his mind to acknowledge that he in fact needs a savior. Without these things, the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who perish.

I'm quite happy to agree that a person must understand "the bad news" before they can understand the Gospel. If you don't see your need for salvation, then you can hardly say in any real way that you can believe in Jesus for it. But what that has to do with whether or not works do or don't follow from salvation is totally lost on me.

If the man robbing the store comes to believe that Jesus was the son of God, etc. but he never knows why he needs a savior, then how can appropiate the gift of salvation. Repentance is a genuine response to God. I know there are a lot of Baptist preachers who have tried to reduce this word to a specific meaning, and have done much damage.

It depends on what you mean by "believe that Jesus was the Son of God." Inherent in the meaning of the word "Christ" is the one who provides eternal salvation. If you do not see your need for salvation, then you are not logically capable of believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. If he DOES see his need and believes in Christ, then he is saved, even if he then goes out and robs a store, complete with murder. WORKS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION, and THANK GOD for that.

I have little doubt that Judas believed that Jesus was the Messiah, but did he appropriate the gift of salvaiton? Pretty obvious that he did not. And God wove that into the fulfilling of the plan.

For the record, I don't have any problem believing that Judas was saved . . .

I have broken every commandment either in word thought or deed. I have hated. And I have also experienced the deep conviction of harboring such thoughts, and grieving the Holy Spirit. I KNOW that where I have been unfaithful, he is faithful, and that He can cleanse me from all unrighteousness. That is why I do not want to use and abuse the grace of God for an occassion of the flesh.

Fine. Then you agree with my previous statement. A man can get saved--genuinely saved--and go on to commit murder and every other atrocious deed imaginable. You yourself have done it. Why, then, do you take exception to the man who gets saved and then robs and murders?

Salvation is a heart matter.

It's a belief matter. Do you believe that God told the Truth concerning His Son.

PS - Note: when you are saved — no one is able to snatch you out from God's hands — not even you. If you are thinking you have lost your salvation remember this: Do you believe that Jesus is more than able to keep you forever saved? If yes — as is your faith so be it to you. If no — sorry — he'll never let you go and will seek you out wherever you stray and lift you up and bear you back to the flock. Such is the Good Shepherd.

Ok help me with this one. A person, by all evidence has trusted the gospel. Over time they then go into a reprobate life. they don't worry about their salvation and whether they lost it. In fact, they reject the whole notion. Have you met people like this?

Yes, I have. Several, actually. And I have absolutely no problem telling them that they are just as saved as me. Tell me, why would you possibly have a problem telling someone that? I find it far more likely that they would come back to a God who did not reject them when they rejected Him than they would to a God who condemned their way back into His loving arms.

It's amazing to me, J, how many people hate the doctrine of eternal security. They love the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints. Sure, they say, faith alone, yada, yada. But if I KEEP ON BELIEVING (etc), THEN I get to go to heaven. It's a back-loaded works-based gospel. But eternal security--salvation with NO strings attached? That is far too radical for most. How dare God save someone who mocks Him when I lived my life in dedication to Him?

Seriously--when we come to grips with the Gospel--with the absolutely uncompromising nature of the Gospel, that we are saved by faith ALONE, and that NOTHING we can do will change that, not even our rejection of God--our entire approach to life changes. Certainly our approach to God does. Salvation is by faith ALONE ALONE ALONE ALONE ALONE.

Now, here's the scary part to it, J. Since salvation is by faith alone, and most people hate that doctrine--most don't believe it; they believe it is by continued faith or by a special type of faith that goes on to produce works--how many people have actually believed that Gospel message? How many people have actually trusted in Christ alone with complete disregard for themselves and their own merit, past, present, or future? I submit to you very few. I submit to you that the "Gospel" most people trust is something like, "Give your life to Christ/turn from your sins/ask Jesus into your heart/etc." . . . they've never heard, and never believed, the simple Gospel message of John 3:16.

For God so loved the world that He gave His One and Only Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish, but HAS EVERLASTING LIFE.

Faith alone, my friend. The only evidence one is capable of producing that they are saved is the confession that they believe the Gospel. No other evidence has any bearing one way or another, either positive or negative.

Believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God apprpriates a regenerate work in one's life (John 20:31). That's called salvation by faith alone, my friend. Either you believe that, or you call Jesus a liar.

Are you saying intellectual belief is the same as saving faith?
Are you saying that John 3:16 and other such verses are OK to take out of context. How about, 'believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.'

Jesus said EVERYONE who believes has eternal life. EVERYONE. Are you saying that if someone believes but doesn't repent, then they aren't saved? So are you saying Jesus was wrong, that NOT everyone believes, but only those who believe and also repent? That, my friend, is called Andy's Gospel--and man must believe, AND HE must repent. I don't believe Andy's Gospel (which is really no gospel at all, according to someone more studied than me). I believe Jesus'.

Yes, everyone who believes has eternal life. As long as belief is consistent with the what the whole counsel of God says. Even the devil believes, no? It is not whoever believes about him. But whoever beleives IN Him.

Question first, how do you define repent?

I did define repent and even gave examples.

If repentance is only defined as a change of mind, then it is interchangable with belief--to go from a state of disbelief to belief. In that case, it is not A condition of salvation, but THE condition of salvation. But your next statement implies that you see more in repentance than a change from disbelief to belief

That is the most basic understanding. A change of mind. But that definition in and of itself is not repentance. I gave you an example of how someone sees their own sin. If they do not come to a belief that their sin has put them at enmity with God, then why would they embrace a Savior? It's like throwing a life preserver to a man who doesn't think he is drowning. To make it clear, I don't think that salvation is conditioned on us stopping our sin, but I do beleive that true salvation produces a sanctifying work that continues. And yes there is scripture to back that up. Ephesians 2:8 says by grace through faith. But it doesn't stop there. Eph. 2:10.

Fine. Then you agree with my previous statement. A man can get saved--genuinely saved--and go on to commit murder and every other atrocious deed imaginable. You yourself have done it. Why, then, do you take exception to the man who gets saved and then robs and murders?

I think BW tackled that and did a much better job. I agree it is a tough and puzzling question. I KNOW that my relationship with sin is different than before I had salvation. I don't know that I can explain that mystery. Regarding David as an example. I honestly don't know. I know that he was under the Law. He was not trusting in these NT verses you are saying, because they had not yet been revealed.

Yes, I have. Several, actually. And I have absolutely no problem telling them that they are just as saved as me. Tell me, why would you possibly have a problem telling someone that? I find it far more likely that they would come back to a God who did not reject them when they rejected Him than they would to a God who condemned their way back into His loving arms.

See now you lose me. You say someone can not be saved although they have trusted Christ, but have distortions on 'faith alone.' But at the same time, you can tell someone that they are saved, who has rejected any notion of a past confession they made.

The second is that I don't think you can say that they DON'T love the true God. Perhaps some have a view of God so warped that they don't love the true God at all but one of their own making (but if that is the case, how many Christians can be said to fall into the same trap), but it is evident that you believe that they can, in fact, love this object. Allow me to demonstrate. If an atheist says that "God-talk" is ultimately meaningless, because no one is really referring to the same thing--that "God" is such a nebulous term that it is ultimately meaningless ("a word that can mean anything means nothing")--how would you respond? Correcly, you would say that "God" is a very meaningful term, that it refers to the Supreme Being in whom All Perfections are found. If you and and atheist can talk about the same God, why can't you and a Muslim? In truth, you can, and you do. They simply think that He has revealed Himself in a different way than do you. But, AGAIN, if you want to argue the example, just shift it to the Jews. I've already referenced Rom. 10:12, in which Paul says explicitly that those unbelievers had a passion--a zeal--for the true God.

I think you are trying real hard to defend an argument. But I think you are making an obvious fallacy. In talking in general terms we can use the word 'god.' And yes it has a very broad understanding. Higher power, creator, etc. I agree. But now you want to apply that to a personal loving relationship and what muslims 'feel.' I don't think that is reasonable.
Regarding Romans 10:2, you are using a scriptural truth, broadly applied to prove your point. They, the Jews, had CORRECT revelation to base that upon. I have no doubt that Muslims are passionate and zealous. They are also wrong.

People can "love" sin; heretics their heresies; narcissists themselves, the deceived their deceptions, etc... I do not think we can put an unsaved follower of a false religious system's love for a false Christless representation of God or a pagan diety/dieties on the level of an authentic believer's love of the real God whom they know intimately because He indwells them.

Seriously--when we come to grips with the Gospel--with the absolutely uncompromising nature of the Gospel, that we are saved by faith ALONE, and that NOTHING we can do will change that, not even our rejection of God--our entire approach to life changes. Certainly our approach to God does. Salvation is by faith ALONE ALONE ALONE ALONE ALONE.

So much of what is being asked or talked about isn't salvation, it's sanctification. If I went totally by what you say here, that I could do whatever I wanted while having faith - I would just go out and sin more (why not?). Yet, that's not what the gospel is about either (and since becoming saved, I don't want to, generally). The gospel is about becoming free - free from being a slave to sin.

Jesus said to obey Him. Further, sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit, and our willingness to accept His work in us. This will change us. It's not a matter of doing "works" in order to be saved, it's a matter of being willing to become more Holy through the work of God's Holy Spirit. Jesus commands us: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt 5:48). The only way we can do that is with God's guidance and help, and we have to be willing to accept that help; if your will is to keep on sinning, then you are not going the direction that Jesus called us as believers to go in. But whether a person is saved or not who keeps living a willfully sinful life, who seems no different after being saved, is between them and God.