Evidence for God from Science

Your translation isn't wrong, but it does miss a play on words in the Greek text. The word for "entered" is eiselthenl; the word for "came to" is dielthen. A better translation of the second would be "spread to." The first pictures entering into something (hence the prefix eis, meaning "into"); the second pictures spreading throughout something (hence the prefix dia, meaning "through").

So there is a comparison to entering the world and spreading to men. You can't make the two phrases mean the same thing, which is what OEC has to do. "World" doesn't refer to mankind anymore than "entering" is the same thing as "spreading". Rather, the "world" is just what it almost always refers to in Paul's writings: the creation. Now that death is a part of creation, it spreads to all men in the same way it first entered; or individual sins.

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Welcome tgmore! I really appreciate what you've written above. It resonates with me on many, many levels. The church I was attending a few years ago did a Sunday School quarter on YEC vs OEC, Intelligent Design and Theistic Evolution. I was a part of it as a representative OEC. That particular church denomination has a statement that YEC and OEC are both recognized positions and accepted as possible literal interpretations of Genesis. In practice however, there are some within the church who are YEC and tolerate that OECs are recognized, but still advance their position aggressively suggesting at times that OEC in fact is not a viable position.

I've been out of institutional churches for the past year or so, and may be looking to find another church with my family. I'm somewhat apprehensive even as an attender as to what the reception will be as many of the churches I've looked up and checked their Doctrinal Statements appear to have language there that strongly suggests that and OEC position is not welcome.

To this point, I've not found any churches that clearly state they are OEC or in any way implying that YECs are not welcome. I'm told they exist and they might, but at least in my immediate area I see no sign of that at least in the statements of faith I've reviewed.

Anyway, your words encourage me and I'm glad you're here. I hope you'll stick around and become more involved!

blessing to you and again welcome,

bart

Bart, if you find any churches that aren't opposed to OEC, please post them so I can check them out. Thanks

I know of one .

RickD wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Welcome tgmore! I really appreciate what you've written above. It resonates with me on many, many levels. The church I was attending a few years ago did a Sunday School quarter on YEC vs OEC, Intelligent Design and Theistic Evolution. I was a part of it as a representative OEC. That particular church denomination has a statement that YEC and OEC are both recognized positions and accepted as possible literal interpretations of Genesis. In practice however, there are some within the church who are YEC and tolerate that OECs are recognized, but still advance their position aggressively suggesting at times that OEC in fact is not a viable position.

I've been out of institutional churches for the past year or so, and may be looking to find another church with my family. I'm somewhat apprehensive even as an attender as to what the reception will be as many of the churches I've looked up and checked their Doctrinal Statements appear to have language there that strongly suggests that and OEC position is not welcome.

To this point, I've not found any churches that clearly state they are OEC or in any way implying that YECs are not welcome. I'm told they exist and they might, but at least in my immediate area I see no sign of that at least in the statements of faith I've reviewed.

Anyway, your words encourage me and I'm glad you're here. I hope you'll stick around and become more involved!

blessing to you and again welcome,

bart

Bart, if you find any churches that aren't opposed to OEC, please post them so I can check them out. Thanks

Canuckster1127 wrote:

RickD wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Welcome tgmore! I really appreciate what you've written above. It resonates with me on many, many levels. The church I was attending a few years ago did a Sunday School quarter on YEC vs OEC, Intelligent Design and Theistic Evolution. I was a part of it as a representative OEC. That particular church denomination has a statement that YEC and OEC are both recognized positions and accepted as possible literal interpretations of Genesis. In practice however, there are some within the church who are YEC and tolerate that OECs are recognized, but still advance their position aggressively suggesting at times that OEC in fact is not a viable position.

I've been out of institutional churches for the past year or so, and may be looking to find another church with my family. I'm somewhat apprehensive even as an attender as to what the reception will be as many of the churches I've looked up and checked their Doctrinal Statements appear to have language there that strongly suggests that and OEC position is not welcome.

To this point, I've not found any churches that clearly state they are OEC or in any way implying that YECs are not welcome. I'm told they exist and they might, but at least in my immediate area I see no sign of that at least in the statements of faith I've reviewed.

Anyway, your words encourage me and I'm glad you're here. I hope you'll stick around and become more involved!

blessing to you and again welcome,

bart

Bart, if you find any churches that aren't opposed to OEC, please post them so I can check them out. Thanks

Rick, The Presbyterian Churches of America have a formal statement affirming both YEC and OEC as literal positions. Catholic churches if anything tend to lean OEC and in many cases even Theistic Evolution. Most of the churches I'm looking at now, (and it's limited) are independent or evangelical and in that context there is indeed a strong lean toward YEC and some of the wording of their Statement of Faiths almost seem to infer strongly that YEC is a tenet of the church. I may be reading too much in however. I can tend to be a little touchy on that issue because of past experiences I had when I was a Southern Baptist and encouraged by some to leave the denomination on the sole basis of that issue.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Here's a link to AIC that attempts to catalog the different denominations by their statements of faith, any formal declaration and then also informally guages the temperature in terms of actual practice.

I agree with you that creationism is not a cardinal issue and I wouldn't select a church solely on that basis. For me however, it would likely make a difference as to whether I was willing to declare formal membership vs. just attending.

http://www.answersincreation.org/denominationlist.htm

tgmore1 wrote:Well....since you asked...

Background - How I Lost my Faith…and Found it Again

I was baptized when I was a young teen. But not long after…sometime in early high school…I stumbled. I lost my faith. Dogmatic believers and fundamental theology didn't have credibility with me. Fear and damnation did not ring true for me.

I have been an avid reader since about the 3rd grade and in my early teens read a biography of the lawyer Clarence Darrow. Maybe I had learned of him from the movie “Inherit the Wind” (Scopes monkey trial on evolution), I can't remember. I was into reading biographies at the time. Darrow was an agnostic (not an atheist) and a quote attributed to him struck a chord with me. Darrow professed: “I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure”. This was the death blow for my faith. It stuck to me like glue. I soon discovered that many great thinkers were agnostic. Mark Twain was an agnostic. Agnosticism was an easily defensible position for me. And then there was the Paradox of Epicurus:
1. If a perfectly good god exists, then evil does not.
2. There is evil in the world.
3. Therefore, a perfectly good god does not exist.

Don't get me wrong, I wanted my faith back. But I wanted to get there through intellect, and I didn't want to get there because of fear of damnation. I wanted to love God genuinely. Try as I might, it took about 35 years before this prodigal son found his way back.

My first college degree is B.S. Biology. Entomology was my field of choice. I got a good dose of philosophy and evolution, which I accepted. Not realizing the faith it took to fill in the gaps. Entomology turned out to be a limited job market in the late 70s and it was going to take a Ph.D. and 5 years experience to get meaningful employment in the field. Instead, I pursued an engineering degree.

I received my second degree, a B.S. Engineering (Mechanical) and went to work in the space program as a NASA contractor. Not as a rocket scientist. Instead, I worked as a payload developer supporting the scientists that perform microgravity research on the Space Shuttle and the International Space Station. Our engineering group has flown payloads on more than 50 Shuttle missions.

My wife was the spiritual leader of our family as I half heartedly supported her with my irregular church attendance. Finally, at the midpoint of my life the message of grace reached me. I surrendered…and with just a mustard seed of faith, things slowly began to be revealed to me. As more was revealed, my faith grew. I found little things in the Word were being illuminated to me. I could see God working in my life. Slowly, my prayers were being answered.

Good Faith-Good Science

Nearly a half a century later here I am working at a university with my new found faith. My family joined one of the largest and fastest growing churches in the nation with a congregation of around 10,000 members. While I was participating daily in “21 Days of Prayer “ with the church, I began to pray for God to protect my new faith from associations at the university that might once again lead me away from the path of light. I'm talking about scientists, brilliant scientists familiar with Einstein's theories, astrophysics, and biology. I didn't want to isolate myself from them. One Saturday morning in this prayer period, I asked that God would help me reconcile my faith with my science and the scientists that I work with. But most importantly…protect my young faith.

Answers to my prayer began immediately, and have continued like a flood for the last 2 months. I've been “drinking through a fire hose”. Let me explain. On Tuesday of the following week, I got an email from a Christian co-worker who knew of my new found faith, but hadn't known of my personal prayer the Saturday before. In the email, he wrote: “you have to watch this”… and had a link to Louie Giglio's “How Great is God” videos on YouTube. In the videos Louie beautifully illustrates the enormity and beauty of God's creation, the universe. He also tells of the protein laminin, “the protein that holds us together”. I forgot to tell you, that most of our work in space has been with protein crystal growth. So this really hit home.

In a church the size of ours, Small Groups of worship during the week are a way to build relationships and to enjoy common pursuits. As new members of the church, my wife and I had never participated in a small group. But I began to pray that the new semester would have a group of scientist/believers like ourselves and that we could encourage each other as we reconciled our understanding of the Word and creation.

We found a small group titled: Creation, Evolution, and Science….I didn't know what it meant at the time, but the group intended to visit the Creation Museum at the end of the semester. I called the leader before we joined and shared with him that we had science backgrounds. He said that is great, because they didn't have any scientists in the group. His daughter had told him she believed the Earth was 4.5 Million years old. I told him, I was inclined to agree with her, and he said we definitely needed to join the group.

At the first meeting we watched the Young Earth Creationist (YEC) DVD “Already Gone” by Ken Ham. My wife and I were incredulous, but polite. We shared that this was all new to us. We had never believed that the creation account represented 6 literal days. We were told that if we didn't believe these things, then we couldn't believe the rest of the bible. My wife and I lay in bed at night scratching our heads over the new things we learned. We believed the rest of the bible, but the YEC theology and dinosaurs on the ark troubled us.

Well, at the second meeting of the small group we watched a DVD by another YEC, Kent Hovind. By this time, my wife and I were reeling. Did my new found faith require rejecting everything I understood about science? Einstein was wrong and so were all of the astrophysicists, geologists, paleontologists, biologists, and even some renowned Christian leaders! We were told that 99% of scientists are atheists. My faith was under attack again…by the same dogmatic fundamental ideology as before.

I think Ronald Regan said “trust, but verify”. We had some verifying to do before next week's meeting. We searched on the internet and followed every thread we could. God answered our efforts when we found the debate between Kent Hovind and Hugh Ross on the John Ankerberg show. Hugh explained clearly, how good faith and good science complement each other and that a better understanding of science actually builds the case for God. We gained an understanding of biblical examples that support the old earth creationist model. We came to understand how God who transcends all space, matter, energy, and time is the creator of the universe and the cause of the big bang. From that point to this day two months later, my wife and I have spent about 20 hours a week learning as much as we can and enjoying the pursuit of good faith and good science.

At the third small group meeting we watched another DVD by Ken Ham. We began to share our research and doubts about the YEC model with the group, but did not debate. I didn't feel properly equipped to address each pseudoscience claim point by point. There were so many claims, it was just overwhelming. My filters were saturated, and I'm afraid debate would have led to relationship issues. Besides we all agreed, these are not salvation issues. We occasionally “tested the waters”, but much like in the debate between Hovind and Ross the literal word of the bible was a primary rebuttal…or “God can do anything”.

Between the third and fourth small group meeting, my wife sought counsel from our church pastors. She requested a meeting saying it was critical, her husband's faith was at risk. We really needed to hear whether we were pursuing something contrary to church doctrine. We met and asked what we should do. Would we get kicked out of the church if we studied the old earth creation model? The pastor laughed and said no. In fact he encouraged us to free ourselves from that worry and said we weren't expected to continue with the small group. How refreshing and encouraging! My faith was safe. In fact it continues to grow. We graciously parted ways at the next small group meeting explaining that we just didn't find Hovind and Ham credible. Instead, we found them a distraction to our pursuit of good faith-good science. We were just weary of filtering the pseudoscience from science.

dayage wrote:Ok All,

Dr. Ross (Reasons to Believe) and Dr. Lisle (Answers in Genesis) will be debating the age of the universe on the Frank Pastore Show Wednesday 3/31/10 (5 PM, PT; 7 Central). Here is a link

http://www.kkla.com/LocalHosts/4/

Dr. Lisle had publicly agreed to debate Dr. Ross in on the Ankerberg show in front of professional Christian astronomers, but backed out. Dr. Danny Faulkner did follow through with the challenge. The group of astronomers is supposed to give their report on the evidence presented.

In front of a lay audience it is easy to say what you want, but in front of experts in the field, it's a different story.

dayage wrote:RickD,

Yes, there should be a listen live section at the top of the page.

By the way the group of astronomers have finally given their answer to the debate I mentioned.
http://www.reasons.org/special-edition- ... e-universe