Evidence for God from Science

PaulB007 wrote:So from an outsiders perspective, looking at the bible and the non new testement accounts of Jesus, do you truly believe there is enough evidence to conclude this is God's son who was resurrected?

If we compare the account of Jesus' life, death and resurrection with other historical accounts, it compares very favorably in terms of reliability, stands up well to textual criticism, and has not yet been shown to be wrong archeologically. If we can trust that which has been confirmed by archeology to be historically accurate, why should we not trust the rest of it? It clearly had a huge impact on the ancient world, was not really questioned in the immediate aftermath of Jesus' earthly life, and has continued to grow without coercion.

I know that many seekers focus on the resurrection as something that is unheard of, just because it simply is not seen today. (Our friend BW may differ from us on that assessment.) And while the resurrection is a key doctrine of Christianity, so is ex-nihilo creation, and at least for me, that is a much bigger deal than Jesus waking up from the dead.

My direct answer to your question though, is this: The existence of God is everywhere, in everything. It does not depend on just a single historical, or scientific, or philosophical argument.It is the very nature of this type of inductive inquiry that makes it a bottomless pit, a never-ending quest. One cannot start from a specific issue, such as the resurrection, or the historicity of Paul, or the argument of evil, and arrive at a deductive conclusion that God exists. Logically, that simply does not work, like a square circle.

There is an abundance of evidence that there is something greater than ourselves, a first cause that put an ordered and life-friendly universe around us. While the examination of all that evidence may lead you on a seesaw ride of yes-no-yes-no, it is only when one realizes that there must have been a first cause greater than the universe that one can conceive of God.

Skepticism, and a conviction of the non-existence of God, is a personal experience, just like gaining faith in God. And through personal experience, just like one can arrive at a disbelief in a greater Being, one becomes a Christian.

Because I am easily impressionable at times when I am ignorant of the facts, I have a weak faith. I really wish I could have a solid belief like a lot of you guys. I'm really scared that I sit here day by day pondering this, day by day, doing nothing else that I will waste away my life trying to come to a conclusion without finding my own true answer. At that point it will be too late. I don't want that to happen like I have seen it happen to many others who give up on Jesus. I don't want to be the bitter old man who hates life and spouts that we have no purpose and were an accident of nature.

PaulB007 wrote:Because I am easily impressionable at times when I am ignorant of the facts, I have a weak faith. I really wish I could have a solid belief like a lot of you guys. I'm really scared that I sit here day by day pondering this, day by day, doing nothing else that I will waste away my life trying to come to a conclusion without finding my own true answer. At that point it will be too late. I don't want that to happen like I have seen it happen to many others who give up on Jesus. I don't want to be the bitter old man who hates life and spouts that we have no purpose and were an accident of nature.

So what is really holding you back?

It's a little like getting married or having kids...if you wait until you have enough money to do either it will likely never happen. One just have to decide what is most important, and take the leap. If you need help with the process, or if you need some ideas on where to start, we would all be happy to help you.

Well, to be honest it falls on one question really, and it lingers in the back of my mind all the time. I have a hanging fear that we evolved gradually over time through chimpanzees and its common ancestors. So many similarities in the bone structures really makes me wonder. Arguments saying they are different animals that we couldn't have come from feel like straw man arguments.

But there is nothing to say that you can't believe in theistic evolution or progressive creationsim, which explains the homology satisfactory. Plenty of Christians out there who are theistic evolutionists.

In that context, that's merely an excuse. Whether or not we were physically derived from an animal before us should not keep us from God.

PaulB007 wrote:Well, to be honest it falls on one question really, and it lingers in the back of my mind all the time. I have a hanging fear that we evolved gradually over time through chimpanzees and its common ancestors. So many similarities in the bone structures really makes me wonder. Arguments saying they are different animals that we couldn't have come from feel like straw man arguments.

There are schools of thought in Christianity, like Zoe said, that allows for common descent.

Even if we were biologically the descendants of some other creature, you have to admit that we have a very different consciousness. We are the only species that is self-aware, and because of that we are moral, loving, thinking, spiritual beings. There is no evolutionary explanation for being self-aware, in fact, it would be a selective disadvantage. But it ties in neatly with the way that God created...not only did He form man physically, but he also breathed His spirit into us, the ability to be self-aware and conscious of our own existence. So even if we are the descendants of some unknown primeval creature physically, God still gave us a consciousness and state of being that no other creature has. The Hebrew word that describes that in the Genesis account is nshamah , which encompasses intellect, inspiration, spirit and soul.

One can then easily argue that while the physical creation process was something akin to evolution, there was, as noted in Gen 2:7, also a spiritual creation process, which resulted in mankind as we know it today.

I strongly feel theistic evolution is modern society's attempt to fit creation with God in an attempt to not discredit the religion. I feel you can only have it one way. Man was created in God's image *uniquely* or else religion is false.

PaulB007 wrote:I strongly feel theistic evolution is modern society's attempt to fit creation with God in an attempt to not discredit the religion. I feel you can only have it one way. Man was created in God's image *uniquely* or else religion is false.

In His image had to be spiritual, since while we are dualistic in our existence, we physically look nothing like a Triune God.

August wrote:

PaulB007 wrote:I strongly feel theistic evolution is modern society's attempt to fit creation with God in an attempt to not discredit the religion. I feel you can only have it one way. Man was created in God's image *uniquely* or else religion is false.

In His image had to be spiritual, since while we are dualistic in our existence, we physically look nothing like a Triune God.

Right, and look at it this way....we have a high number of physical similarities between even plants and amoebas....many housekeeping genes are similar and yet we would have no issue holding to a unique image.

I think, actually, that that idea of "one way" is a remnant of atheist thought of hogging evolution (or some elements of evolution) such that some people do feel worried that it is a compromise. But for many theistic evolutionists such as Francis Colins (I would encourage you to read his book), it is merely observing God's creation and seeing His way of doing things.

Bottom line, you have no excuse here. You can embrace Christianity (I know there are others who disgree with TE but surely we agree that that is no reason to eny Christianity)

If one can accept theistic evolution as God's plan and that God decided to breath the life of spirit into a homind or what not, then we are just special monkeys? Why would God pick a mere monkey to make special?

August wrote:

PaulB007 wrote:I strongly feel theistic evolution is modern society's attempt to fit creation with God in an attempt to not discredit the religion. I feel you can only have it one way. Man was created in God's image *uniquely* or else religion is false.

In His image had to be spiritual, since while we are dualistic in our existence, we physically look nothing like a Triune God.

I disagree. In His image, 'tselem' is from a root and means 'to cut off' or 'to chisel' ... We are "calved" in God's image. That's not to say we look exactly like God, but I do not believe we are purely His image in a spiritual sense. We are in His image in a number of different ways: physical, spiritual, purposeful, loving, conscious-aware...

This is why theistic evolution simply does not hold plausible for me.

PaulB007 wrote:If one can accept theistic evolution as God's plan and that God decided to breath the life of spirit into a homind or what not, then we are just special monkeys? Why would God pick a mere monkey to make special?

He didn't. If we never had the theory of evolution nobody would ever have suggested such a thing.

DannyM wrote:

PaulB007 wrote:If one can accept theistic evolution as God's plan and that God decided to breath the life of spirit into a homind or what not, then we are just special monkeys? Why would God pick a mere monkey to make special?

He didn't. If we never had the theory of evolution nobody would ever have suggested such a thing.

I totally agree with you on this Danny. I just can't work it out in my head. I know that virtually no churches hold to the theistic evolution view either. Which is why I think it is important we find problems and issues in the theory of human macro evolution so that this doesn't become a prevalent view.

zoegirl wrote:

August wrote:

PaulB007 wrote:I strongly feel theistic evolution is modern society's attempt to fit creation with God in an attempt to not discredit the religion. I feel you can only have it one way. Man was created in God's image *uniquely* or else religion is false.

In His image had to be spiritual, since while we are dualistic in our existence, we physically look nothing like a Triune God.

Right, and look at it this way....we have a high number of physical similarities between even plants and amoebas....many housekeeping genes are similar and yet we would have no issue holding to a unique image.

I think, actually, that that idea of "one way" is a remnant of atheist thought of hogging evolution (or some elements of evolution) such that some people do feel worried that it is a compromise. But for many theistic evolutionists such as Francis Colins (I would encourage you to read his book), it is merely observing God's creation and seeing His way of doing things.

Bottom line, you have no excuse here. You can embrace Christianity (I know there are others who disgree with TE but surely we agree that that is no reason to eny Christianity)

Zoe, I feel you are partially right. I look at all of this, I look at all the people who died back then for these beliefs, who had no power to gain, no fame, no money, no recognition, yet they gave up their life for Christ and to teach his word. They knew well that in the early first century onward that advocating strongly for Christ was practically a death sentence. I have to give them the benefit of the doubt that a large group of people had seen the risen Christ in order to die in the most brutal ways. Why would you die for that lie? Why worship a false God if you were a Jew, knowing you'd go to hell for doing so? Something just doesn't add up that these people were so faithful. That's what gets me most. The death penalty isn't a breeze like it is today. You suffered and went through *A LOT* of excruciating, unthinkable pain by todays standards. You'd be very afraid to die back then because of how much they'd brutalize you before death.

Zoe I do feel in my heart that this very well could be the truth, that Christ is the Messiah. But my logic and my mind love to ask those two little worlds: "what if?". They are my greatest strength, and my greatest weakness at times. My logical side won't let me accept Christ. I am trying to find a way to appeal to my logic so that the heart and mind can become one.

I won't lie, a lot of changes will need to be made. I am a terrible sinner. I have a child out of wedlock, a lot of sex out of wedlock.. ect. I am a man who operates on lust. Sex is my drug, I am terrible. I don't care what I do, I use others to my gain, I get what I want and then discard them. I lie compulsively, I use, I cheat.. you name it. And I do this more so than the normal person. I am not holding back out of fear of having to change my life to a more Christlike style, but afraid of giving it up for no reason if this is all fake.

If it is not true, then you certainly don't have anything to worry about and indeed should not care really about how many youhave slept with or living with lust....Have at it.

and what is so wrong about the idea that we are primates that have been set aside (carved, if you will) spiritually and even physically (by the changes that exist between us and other primates).

We certainly can't set aside those similarities...so even without the dreaded word evolution we have so many similarities that we are indeed, very very special animals...

I am certainly not denying the uniqueness of humans....but it is clear that we do share many characteristics with primates, with mammals, with animals.

Keep reading through scripture....