So who is right?
You have to ask yourself - Why would Luke make up a name that people can easily check and correct him at the time? It makes no sense.
Silvertusk.
The historical evidence for Christ
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Silvertusk
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jlay
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
There is no way that two men with the same name ruled over the same land, within that close of a time frame. What are the odds?
Sincerely,
John Adams
The reality is that Luke's gospel account was in wide circulation during a time when these facts could be readily checked, verified, or dismissed. And yet we have no critique from history that would indicate Luke was in error.
Sincerely,
John Adams
The reality is that Luke's gospel account was in wide circulation during a time when these facts could be readily checked, verified, or dismissed. And yet we have no critique from history that would indicate Luke was in error.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Gman
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
I'm not sure about the apologists Matt Slick and Greg Boyd, but the apologist Glenn Miller differs... Miller's argument is rather that Quirinius was a procurator at that time. See link below..Silvertusk wrote:So who is right?
You have to ask yourself - Why would Luke make up a name that people can easily check and correct him at the time? It makes no sense.
Silvertusk.
About the inscription...
"Porter [172] confirms that the "grammar of the Latin has been interpreted to mean not that he received Syria and Phoenicia 'again', but that he was 'again' legate, this time of Syria and Phoenicia". But Miller's answer is NOT that the inscription refers to Quirinius, but rather to Varus. Porter [173] seems to allude to this idea, noting that Ramsay argued for "some kind of split responsibilities" with Varus, but he does not reply to it. He does note that it is either Piso or a certain M. Plautius Silvanus who most scholars think is the subject of the Tivoli inscription."
J.P. Holding's response is pretty long, so I won't post it, but in conclusion he states...
"This is a complex topic and Carrier's definitive "it didn't happen" conclusion is unwarranted. The conclusions of Porter ("...there is growing evidence from what we know of ancient census-taking practices to believe that in fact Luke got far more right in his account that he got wrong") and Miller at this stage seem much stronger, though Carrier's work may seem stronger only because he addresses so many arguments that were of little merit to begin with."
You can read more about the outcome here..
Source: http://www.tektonics.org/af/censuscheck.html
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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sweetadeline112358
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
Let me just say that for now, it appears you have two classes of accounts: those that portray an entity who is either a man or a deity, and those that portray allegedly supernatural or miraculous events associated with the entity (or assert that the entity is a deity).
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Gman
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
Being fans of both Lee Strobel (a former atheist) and John Ankerberg, I believe they bring some powerful evidence to light in these videos on the resurrection of Christ..
Lee Strobel On Attacks & The Resurrection Of Jesus - Part 1
Lee Strobel On Attacks & The Resurrection Of Jesus - Part 2
Lee Strobel On Attacks & The Resurrection Of Jesus - Part 1
Lee Strobel On Attacks & The Resurrection Of Jesus - Part 2
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Gman
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
Crucifixion Evidence
In 1968, the bones of a young man who had been crucified during New Testament times were found in the Jerusalem area. The bones were found in a stone box bearing the name "Yehohanan." This find shows gruesome evidence of how the Romans crucified persons such as Jesus. Luke 23:33 NIV says, "When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him [Jesus], along with the criminals-one on his right, the other on his left."
A 7-inch-long nail was still embedded in the heel bone.
Rolling Stone Tombs
At several places in modern Israel there are examples of the type of tomb in which Jesus' body was placed after the crucifixion. Mostly cut into the sides of hills, each used a large circular stone to cover the entrance. These type of tombs are confirmed in the Gospels, Matt 27:60;28:2; Mark 15:46; 16:3, 4; Luke 24:2.
After the bodies decayed, the bones would be removed from each shaft and placed in a covered stone box (called an ossuary) in the central room.
Source: 50 Proofs for the Bible.
In 1968, the bones of a young man who had been crucified during New Testament times were found in the Jerusalem area. The bones were found in a stone box bearing the name "Yehohanan." This find shows gruesome evidence of how the Romans crucified persons such as Jesus. Luke 23:33 NIV says, "When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him [Jesus], along with the criminals-one on his right, the other on his left."
A 7-inch-long nail was still embedded in the heel bone.
Rolling Stone Tombs
At several places in modern Israel there are examples of the type of tomb in which Jesus' body was placed after the crucifixion. Mostly cut into the sides of hills, each used a large circular stone to cover the entrance. These type of tombs are confirmed in the Gospels, Matt 27:60;28:2; Mark 15:46; 16:3, 4; Luke 24:2.
After the bodies decayed, the bones would be removed from each shaft and placed in a covered stone box (called an ossuary) in the central room.
Source: 50 Proofs for the Bible.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
Thanks for providing this link, Gman. Lee Strobel is very interesting.Gman wrote:Being fans of both Lee Strobel (a former atheist) and John Ankerberg, I believe they bring some powerful evidence to light in these videos on the resurrection of Christ..
Lee Strobel On Attacks & The Resurrection Of Jesus - Part 1
Lee Strobel On Attacks & The Resurrection Of Jesus - Part 2
FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom
+ + +
If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
+ + +
+ + +
If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
+ + +
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Gman
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
I'm doing this for Easter by the way...
The Madaba Mosaic Map
This mosaic map of the Holy Land was made about AD 560 to serve as the decorative floor of an early church located near the Dead Sea in modern Jordan.
"The mosaic map of Madaba is the oldest known geographic floor mosaic in art history. It is of major use for the localisation and verification of biblical sites. Study of the map played a major role in answering the question of the topographical location of Askalon (Asqalan on the map). In 1967, excavations in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem revealed the Nea Church and the Cardo Maximus in the very locations suggested by the Madaba Map.
In February 2010, excavations further substantiated its accuracy with the discovery of a road depicted in the map that runs through the center of Jerusalem. According to the map, the main entrance to the city was through a large gate opening into a wide central street. Until now, archaeologists were not able to excavate this site due to heavy pedestrian traffic. In the wake of infrastructure work near the Jaffa Gate, large paving stones were discovered at a depth of 4 meters below ground that prove such a road existed."
Source: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madaba_Map
Map of Jerusalem
The Madaba Mosaic Map
This mosaic map of the Holy Land was made about AD 560 to serve as the decorative floor of an early church located near the Dead Sea in modern Jordan.
"The mosaic map of Madaba is the oldest known geographic floor mosaic in art history. It is of major use for the localisation and verification of biblical sites. Study of the map played a major role in answering the question of the topographical location of Askalon (Asqalan on the map). In 1967, excavations in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem revealed the Nea Church and the Cardo Maximus in the very locations suggested by the Madaba Map.
In February 2010, excavations further substantiated its accuracy with the discovery of a road depicted in the map that runs through the center of Jerusalem. According to the map, the main entrance to the city was through a large gate opening into a wide central street. Until now, archaeologists were not able to excavate this site due to heavy pedestrian traffic. In the wake of infrastructure work near the Jaffa Gate, large paving stones were discovered at a depth of 4 meters below ground that prove such a road existed."
Source: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madaba_Map
Map of Jerusalem
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Gman
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
Thanks FL...Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote: Thanks for providing this link, Gman. Lee Strobel is very interesting.
FL
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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DannyM
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
Ah, sweet, sweet Adeline ... I'd really love you to explain how you imagine that non-believers in Jesus' divinity would somehow feel compelled to portray Him as divine ...? It appears that you require sceptics of Jesus' divinity to AFFIRM His divinity in order for you to see any merit in the claim that Jesus is divine... this is truly a non sequitur ...sweetadeline112358 wrote:Let me just say that for now, it appears you have two classes of accounts: those that portray an entity who is either a man or a deity, and those that portray allegedly supernatural or miraculous events associated with the entity (or assert that the entity is a deity).
credo ut intelligam
dei gratia
dei gratia
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DannyM
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
Gman, this is incredible!!Gman wrote:Crucifixion Evidence
In 1968, the bones of a young man who had been crucified during New Testament times were found in the Jerusalem area. The bones were found in a stone box bearing the name "Yehohanan." This find shows gruesome evidence of how the Romans crucified persons such as Jesus. Luke 23:33 NIV says, "When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him [Jesus], along with the criminals-one on his right, the other on his left."
A 7-inch-long nail was still embedded in the heel bone.
Rolling Stone Tombs
At several places in modern Israel there are examples of the type of tomb in which Jesus' body was placed after the crucifixion. Mostly cut into the sides of hills, each used a large circular stone to cover the entrance. These type of tombs are confirmed in the Gospels, Matt 27:60;28:2; Mark 15:46; 16:3, 4; Luke 24:2.
After the bodies decayed, the bones would be removed from each shaft and placed in a covered stone box (called an ossuary) in the central room.
credo ut intelligam
dei gratia
dei gratia
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Gman
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
Thanks Danny..
No eyewitness to the accounts of Christ? I think this video clearly refutes that....
How Many People Really Saw Jesus Alive? Eyewitness Accounts of Christ
No eyewitness to the accounts of Christ? I think this video clearly refutes that....
How Many People Really Saw Jesus Alive? Eyewitness Accounts of Christ
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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DannyM
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
Brother I really don't know how you do all this stuff, but a big, big thank you! You know what, we don't get nearly enough atheists participating on here, but I really do hope that there are many who browse the boards and see all this stuff. And Rich's latest slide show via your link on the "New Page Critique" forum was another masterpiece. We should invade an atheist forum with all this stuffGman wrote:Thanks Danny..
No eyewitness to the accounts of Christ? I think this video clearly refutes that....
How Many People Really Saw Jesus Alive? Eyewitness Accounts of Christ
I'll watch that video now...credo ut intelligam
dei gratia
dei gratia
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Gman
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
Megiddo (Church Inscription)
In 2005, a prayer hall was discovered outside of the Megiddo Prison. The floor of the prayer hall features a detailed mosaic floor with inscriptions that consecrate the church to "God Jesus Christ."
The Bible teaches and the Christian Church has always upheld that Jesus is God (John 1: 1-5, 20:28; Hebrews 1 :6-8). This find verifies that the Christian Church recognized the divinity of Jesus as early as the third century.
Source: 50 Proofs for the Bible.
In 2005, a prayer hall was discovered outside of the Megiddo Prison. The floor of the prayer hall features a detailed mosaic floor with inscriptions that consecrate the church to "God Jesus Christ."
The Bible teaches and the Christian Church has always upheld that Jesus is God (John 1: 1-5, 20:28; Hebrews 1 :6-8). This find verifies that the Christian Church recognized the divinity of Jesus as early as the third century.
Source: 50 Proofs for the Bible.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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sweetadeline112358
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ
The earthquake does not surprise me. I watched a documentary recently, and there is archeological evidence that the walls of Jericho have been rebuilt countless times (during one period of time it was rebuilt 30 times). It is stated that earthquakes can be felt in that part of the world on a daily basis. Even if in the local region that Jesus was crucified in it is or was rare for earthquakes to occur, I still would not be that surprised. You realize that someone was probably in the midst of their death throes when the recent Haitian earthquake occurred, right? This is not really the basis for a strong inference. Even if 5 or 100 random weird events happened, I'd say that's a good explanation for why so many people have been attracted to the idea for the last 2000 years. I don't think naturally occurring phenomenon are great evidence that anyone is a god, though.
Yes, I know about the martyrs. A lot of them are considered saints in the Catholic Church. No, I have not read the entire Bible, but I am not extremely unfamiliar with it. I actually don't even have huge problems with anything I've ever read in the Bible in a really generalized sense (things that might seem puzzling or even terrible I was able to chalk up to a cultural divide, but even that is not good enough for some Christians). I am not “angry at Jesus” or anything like that. I do have a problem with a lot of tertiary beliefs, memes, and attitudes that I have seen propagated by many people that also happen to be Christian. There are specific ones that I even consider toxic. I've had to deal with them for my entire life. I'm not stupid enough to think all Christians hold those beliefs (I have a friend who shares a lot of the same views I do on many issues and he considers himself to be a Christian). I'm sorry if you think that I am being self-righteous, but I have let people (a lot of Christians, especially) walk all over me my entire life and I think it's time that I stand up for myself once in awhile.
Yes, I know about the martyrs. A lot of them are considered saints in the Catholic Church. No, I have not read the entire Bible, but I am not extremely unfamiliar with it. I actually don't even have huge problems with anything I've ever read in the Bible in a really generalized sense (things that might seem puzzling or even terrible I was able to chalk up to a cultural divide, but even that is not good enough for some Christians). I am not “angry at Jesus” or anything like that. I do have a problem with a lot of tertiary beliefs, memes, and attitudes that I have seen propagated by many people that also happen to be Christian. There are specific ones that I even consider toxic. I've had to deal with them for my entire life. I'm not stupid enough to think all Christians hold those beliefs (I have a friend who shares a lot of the same views I do on many issues and he considers himself to be a Christian). I'm sorry if you think that I am being self-righteous, but I have let people (a lot of Christians, especially) walk all over me my entire life and I think it's time that I stand up for myself once in awhile.