Evidence for God from Science

Imperial wrote:August lay down your questions in a numbered format. That is all.

otherwise just.. stop.. posting. You make the least amount of sense of all the people here. Just Stop, go read another part of the forum.

Oh, so now you are just going to insult me? Way to go. But as we have seen throughout this discussion, logical fallacy seems to be your only answer to anything.

You asked for proof for God, I gave you 24 of them, with many more to come. I have asked you for the atheist proofs that you claimed to have...and nothing.

I have asked my questions directly quoting you, after your posts. You didn't want to answer them there, now you want me to list them again? I have repeatedly asked for the same thing. Did you not understand it the first time?

Imperial wrote:

DannyM wrote:As August has already said, this not-so-amazing atheist does not account for any of the presuppositions he uses. He merely assumes good and evil, reason and non-reason, and proceeds from there in what can only be described as playground arguments. I've said it before and I'll say it again, atheism is in dire need of some new material if it is to ever hold its own in the public square. That video was shockingly amateurish. Please find us something better.

Actually that video was just showing how Religion does nothing but hurt society. It wasn't even proving that Christianity is wrong. If you want a video proving Christianity wrong then read a few posts up.

But the video has done no such thing. I watched the video, and it "proved" nothing. Please re-state here how you believe the video showed religion does nothing but hurt society...Lay it down here for us all to see...

August wrote:

Imperial wrote:August lay down your questions in a numbered format. That is all.

otherwise just.. stop.. posting. You make the least amount of sense of all the people here. Just Stop, go read another part of the forum.

Oh, so now you are just going to insult me? Way to go. But as we have seen throughout this discussion, logical fallacy seems to be your only answer to anything.

You asked for proof for God, I gave you 24 of them, with many more to come. I have asked you for the atheist proofs that you claimed to have...and nothing.

I have asked my questions directly quoting you, after your posts. You didn't want to answer them there, now you want me to list them again? I have repeatedly asked for the same thing. Did you not understand it the first time?

A: I didn't insult you

B: None of the 24 "proofs" you gave me actually proove that there is a god. Its all theory.

C: There has been no sign of supernatural events. There is nothing that documents any of the bible to be true. Prayer can not be proven because god answers prayers in "Yes, No, or Maybe", which means no matter what happens you'll assume it was god's wishes. If there was a loving god, he would want us to be educated to his existence so we don't burn, yet he doesn't. If there was a loving god, we would not have disease. Humans would have no real function or purpose to a god, if it is company god wishes to have then why not just create beings like him who are pure and don't have the ability to do evils against him, why would he risk it (Maybe an unintelligent god would do this). If god is eternal and nothing existed before he created anything, how did he know what to make? If there was a loving god that could create matter out of nothing then why not just make the people he would send to hell vanish and use their energies to make a new organism rather than send them to hell? All we have to go by nowadays is the bible, how is it credible, and why would you believe somthing just because it was a good read and other people believe it (similar to proof #2)? When the bible was written by some crackpot a long time ago, he was no different from the people who created other religions, the ONLY reason why we believe this one and not the Qur'an or some other religion is because it sounds the best in a way that "If you're good you go to heavan", this shows why a good majority of people in the world are Christian. However there is no REAL proof of god nowadays. Nothing that happened very early history is relevant since it cannot be 100% proven.

There... is your !@#$$%!#$^%#@$! PROOF... And that's probably not even all of the reasons, thats purely what i think about when thinking about Christianity for a few seconds...

Am I the only one who finds this very painful...

You have still not accounted for the things I asked you for. Again.

Imperial wrote:
A: I didn't insult you

So saying that I don't make sense is not an insult?

B: None of the 24 "proofs" you gave me actually proove that there is a god. Its all theory.

You are kidding right? You are not going to get away with simple hand-waving here. But it is typical, you simply are unwilling or incapable of interacting with it, and now you want to just wish it away.

Why don't you at least attempt some kind of counterargument? Also, why don't you tell us what real arguments would look like in your estimation?

C: There has been no sign of supernatural events.

How do you know that?

There is nothing that documents any of the bible to be true.

That is just simply a lie. Either you are incredible naive, or intellectually dishonest to the extreme.

Prayer can not be proven because god answers prayers in "Yes, No, or Maybe", which means no matter what happens you'll assume it was god's wishes.

How do you know that? But it still misses the point completely. Even if no prayers were answered, it still does not disprove the existence of God.

If there was a loving god, he would want us to be educated to his existence so we don't burn, yet he doesn't. If there was a loving god, we would not have disease.

This is a logical fallacy...arguing form personal incredulity. In addition, by which standard do you wish to judge the love or non-love of God?

Humans would have no real function or purpose to a god,

How do you know that?

if it is company god wishes to have then why not just create beings like him who are pure and don't have the ability to do evils against him, why would he risk it (Maybe an unintelligent god would do this).

This is unintelligible. Please expand.

If god is eternal and nothing existed before he created anything, how did he know what to make?

This is just silly. Given the characteristics of God, how could He not know?

If there was a loving god that could create matter out of nothing then why not just make the people he would send to hell vanish and use their energies to make a new organism rather than send them to hell?

I'm sorry, all this "If God" arguments are fruitless. I seriously don't understand how this constitutes any type of argumentation against God. Reality is what it is, whether you question or dislike it or not. By which standard do you wish to hold God accountable to you?

All we have to go by nowadays is the bible, how is it credible, and why would you believe somthing just because it was a good read and other people believe it (similar to proof #2)?

By which standard do you wish to judge the credibility of the Bible? Why do you believe the "amazing" atheist, if it is a good listen and lots of other people believe it?

When the bible was written by some crackpot a long time ago,

This is just silly. You don't have the faintest idea about the Bible, do you? Furthermore this is yet another logical fallacy...arguing ad-hominem.

he was no different from the people who created other religions,

Who is "he"? How do you know that "he" was not any different? Why don't you show us your study on comparative religion so that we can assess your reasons for saying this?

the ONLY reason why we believe this one and not the Qur'an or some other religion is because it sounds the best in a way that "If you're good you go to heavan", this shows why a good majority of people in the world are Christian.

No, it does not. That is not what Christians believe at all. This is yet another logical fallacy...straw man argument.

However there is no REAL proof of god nowadays. Nothing that happened very early history is relevant since it cannot be 100% proven.

Uhm, no, I gave you 24 proofs for God to start off with, and offered to give many more. But because you can't deal with or understand what proof is (why don't you tell us what "proof" is?), you obfuscate by saying that "hey, that's not REAL" proof." Sorry, but that simply does not work.

There... is your !@#$$%!#$^%#@$! PROOF

I don't think so. That is is just a collection of assertions and logical fallacies, coupled with some serious ignorance. I already told you what form logical argumentation takes, yet you still seem unwilling or unable to put forth any arguments in that form.

In the meantime, you have not yet accounted for the things that you wish to use in the process of your argumentation, such as logic and empiricism. You have not yet answered any of the proofs that I posted. You keep throwing out logical fallacies and assertions as if they are arguments.

In addition you, did not offer proof for atheism above. All you did was leverage an attack against some strawman religion that has precious little to do with Christianity. Where is the positive proof for atheism you claimed you had?

DannyM wrote:Am I the only one who finds this very painful...

Danny, we sometimes need to have this type of discourse so that the non-participating readers of the board can see both sides of the argument, and decide which one makes more sense.

On the one hand we have some assertions and logical fallacies, a clear misunderstanding of the very basics of Christianity, and numerous unanswered questions. On the other hand we have provided what he asked for in terms of some of the simplest proofs out there, which is dismissed with some hand-waving.

Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy...

What ISNT logical fallacy with you? I gave you a video slamming down concrete reasons, i stated my proofs. It's all Logical Fallacy to you. You have been stating logical fallacy's by not stating anything logical at all. Is it a logical fallacy by saying that since im speaking against you? Probably...

The proofs i listed is information that we actually HAVE. FYI buddy it's impossible to prove that there is a real God. Prove me wrong by splitting a sea in two, prove me wrong by making it rain fire. You can't. OH gee another Logical Fallacy.

When people choose between Atheism and Christianity, they're choosing between taking the world for what it is and living their lives the way they want, or choosing to restrict their lives to an uncredited book of fantasy. That's all this argument comes down to. YOU are spitting Logical Fallacys by not realizing this.

Imperial wrote:If god is eternal, what IS he? Is it even a person? Is it an energy?

You definitely emphasized the right word there. God simply IS. He is so many things that we can imagine and so many more things that we can not imagine. There are not any words in any language adequate enough to describe. That's why the name God gave Moses to answer the Isrealites when they asked who sent him was simply "I AM". (Exodus 3:13-14)

Imperial wrote:Why would he pointlessly make us?

You're right, God wouldn't pointlessly make us. He made us for a purpose. This is a good question that you could dedicate a new thread to; it looks like there's more than enough going on in this thread already.

Imperial wrote:If he's eternal why didn't he make us a googolplex years ago?

God is not restrained by time, and God can not be measured by time. A "googolplex" years to us is like a second to God, so this question really means nothing.

Imperial wrote:I have no idea why you are saying the Big bang theory goes against Atheism. Atheism just believes there's no god.

Because the big bang theory clearly proves that the universe had a beginning, obviously meaning that it is an effect. Logic tells us that every effect must have a cause. So what caused the beginning of the universe? This is what I was trying to get you to see. Nothing that is natural could have caused our universe, because that cause would need a cause, and so on- infinite regression. There needs to be a supernatural uncaused-cause, ie God.

Imperial wrote:The big bang theory states all that you said, that is true. However in the Big Bang Theory we can't even begin to theorize what happened, and we will never know.

Can't even begin to theorize what happened?
http://www.pbs.org/deepspace/timeline/index.html
That looks like more than the beginning of a theory to me.

Imperial wrote:Christians instead believe in somthing that is completely irrational. How our world is today shows that the concept of there being some magical being who created everything is just ridiculous.

I will join in with the others in asking you to provide more than this. This is simply an assertion. An assertion proves nothing, you need something to back it up with. How is Christianity irrational? How does the world today show that miracles are impossible?

Imperial wrote:Atheism isn't all about origin.

I know that, and I never said it was all about origin. You need to realize that your idea of origin shapes your worldview. I will ask you again to answer the question from my first post:

A Y323 wrote:Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning God..." If not God, then what? "In the beginning _____" fill in the blank. But remember- use logic.

Imperial wrote:Atheists believe that the bible is crap. Atheists believe that there is no such thing as sin, and if you do sin you will NOT go to hell because hell does not exist.

So atheists specifically target Christianity, huh? Why do you think that is? Isn't it because Christianity has much stronger arguments than other religions? You really should read some of those arguments. August just posted a long list of good ones.

Imperial wrote:Atheists see the world for what it is, and as far as our world shows, there is no evidence for god.

Again: read the main site. The motto of the site is even "Evidence for God from Science". There is plenty of evidence for God, you just refuse to see it.

Imperial wrote:If there were no bibles in the world, Christianity wouldn't even exist.

And yet after thousands of years, we still have Bibles and the thousands-of-years old manuscripts they are translated from. Kind of seems like they are being preserved somehow, doesn't it? Like someone wants the world to have Bibles.

Imperial wrote:Couldn't it be possible that there was some crazy guy a long time ago that came up with all this stuff about gods and evils of the world? Well believe it or not, i'm not refering to christianity. I'm refering to the Greek Gods. What's different about Christianity and Greed Mythology? How is Christianity more Credible?

Again I'll turn to manuscript evidence. The Iliad and the Odyssey were very important books for the Greeks, almost as important as Christians regard the Bible. The Iliad was written by Homer in 900 BC. There are about 640 copies remaining, the oldest being from about 400 BC. That's 500 years difference, and not a whole lot of copies. If the Greek gods existed, surely they would demand that their stories be preserved wouldn't they?

The New Testament, on the other hand, was written between 40-100 AD. There are over 24,000 manuscripts remaining, some of the oldest being from about 125 AD. That's only 25-50 years difference, and a ton of manuscripts. All of this can be found on the main site. Seriously, you should read it.

Imperial wrote:All these stories in the bible of all these magical miracles are about as credible as the story of Heracles fighting the Hydra. The story of David and Goliath is just as ridiculous. If a kid downing a giant with a pebble isn't enough, let's consider the story of Noah... Enough said

Yeah, that story of Hercules and the Hydra does sound pretty ridiculous, doesn't it? Why? Because there are no multi-headed dragon type monsters around today, nor is there any evidence that there ever has been. David and Goliath, however? The Bible records that Goliath was over 9 feet tall (1 Samuel 17:4). The world's recorded tallest man was 8 feet 11.1 inches tall. Only an inch or two difference, making Goliath completely credible. As for being killed by a pebble? Well, let's see you survive a rock hitting you right between the eyes at 70+ miles per hour.

Imperial wrote:And as i've said many many many times, there is No Evidence For God.

And as we have said many times give us evidence, not just assertions, and read the main site.

August wrote:

DannyM wrote:Am I the only one who finds this very painful...

Danny, we sometimes need to have this type of discourse so that the non-participating readers of the board can see both sides of the argument, and decide which one makes more sense.

On the one hand we have some assertions and logical fallacies, a clear misunderstanding of the very basics of Christianity, and numerous unanswered questions. On the other hand we have provided what he asked for in terms of some of the simplest proofs out there, which is dismissed with some hand-waving.

August, patience is surely a virtue. I am all for engaging the atheist. But I get more than a little perplexed when I see quality arguments (provided by you on pg 2) dismissed out of hand in a fit of ignorance.

Imperial wrote:Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy.

This might help you get a grip on logical fallacies...

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

We are all prone to make the odd logical fallacy, Imperial, but you are producing them at such an alarming rate that I think it would be a good thing for you to read the link provided.

Imperial wrote: You... are an idiot...

Name calling is not allowed here on this forum.. I suggest you clean up your act.

Imperial wrote:Have i not already said that NO ONE can prove origin?

Then your atheistic beliefs are FAITH based...... Please stop denying it... You are no different from any other religion..

Imperial wrote: YOU are the only one who thinks mud is the only alternative - that makes you as stupid as you think atheists are. I have no "Proof" against what origin theory is true, nor do you have "Proof" that Christianity is true. However scientists use REALITY to come up with data and predict theories while you assume that everything you read in an old book is true ...

You are claiming that there is no God and that you have a logical framework that denies the existence of God. You have been asked numerous times to reveal the proof behind your assertions and so far you have declined... Therefore, your claim is simply an assertion backed up by nothing....

If you deny that there is an intelligent designer behind our world... Then yes all you are left with is naturalism, chance, or mud.. Or if you want to say that aliens were behind it, but that also would lead to an intelligent designer..

Imperial wrote:To be logical is to be reasonable. There is nothing in Christianity that is reasonable. In reality, no one can give proof of origin, however scientists can get MUCH closer to the truth that Christianity ever will. Your entire belief is based on this book. Literally just on this book. Can you even confirm who wrote it? Where's the documentation? It's illogical to open up an old book and believe everything that's inside. In this way you are basically like little kids who still believe in Santa Clause.

Again... You claim that scientists have gotten much closer that Christianity has.. The question is how? Why won't you back up your assertion?

Also God writes the Bible through people.. 2 Peter 1:21

Imperial wrote:There's no proof of god -AT ALL-. If there WAS a supernatural being who created the world and wanted us to believe in him, i would think he'd be smart enough to truely show himself to us and proove all of us Atheists wrong. But he doesn't, and i read that section on the main site. So you're basically saying if we saw god our faces will melt off (or somthin like that lol...). This is not a "reason" this is a made up load that gives some reason why we can't see him. If he created the universe why doesn't he come down in a form we CAN see? Does he not have the power? OOOOOH but JESUS came to earth... Too bad all he could do was a few cheap parlor tricks while his dad CREATED THE UNIVERSE! And i guess god isn't smart enough to know that if he doesn't give us somthing rather than an old book for us to believe in, theres a group of people who are going to actually figure out the real reality - that the book is crap.

Getting over emotional is not going to help your cause... What we need is proof to the contrary... So far you have declined.

And God reveals himself to you everyday.. Every time you take a breath or witness nature..

And God has come down to earth in Christ..

Imperial wrote:Christians have absolutly no arguments against Atheism. They never did. Atheists ALWAYS make more sense in every argument i've ever seen. Probably because Christians basically have a "Just Because.." attitude. Atheists use reality as their tool of argument while Christians use this book of beliefs none of which can be PROVEN. Though likewise we can't prove that it's wrong, however reality shows that its not at all likely. This is pathetic, it's the equivilant of me saying "I'm Bill Gates, prove me wrong". No No even better, I'M GOD! I'm here to educate you people however you won't listen. Prove me wrong.

This is how illogical christians are. They believe they have "faith" which is just another way of saying "I'm gonna believe this is our origin, but i don't have any real shown reason to". Yaaaaa... That's REALLY credible

Again... The atheistic belief is totally faith based... I would say even more than Christianity.. I tell you what, try creating life from inorganic matter sometime in a lab. I'll even supply the gamma rays and the necessary ingredients for it too.. Oh yes, and mud too...

Imperial, I don't know why you're still here. To say that there is nothing rational or reasonable or logical about the Christian faith is very very laughable. It shows your ignorance of history, archaeology and philosophy, if not more. So, you, the young person that you are (are you really 17?), are going to say that all the scientists, philosophers, theologians, etc., through time - including modern times - just have blind faith? Why don't you actually educate yourself some, then come back . . . like in 10 years. Oh, and try reading the bible, too, with some good commentaries.

You could try reading a book by a former atheist philosopher, There is A God (Antony Flew). You could read the easy to read book, How Christianity Changed the World (Alvin Schmidt); in it you'll find scientists, physicians, people who helped abolish slavery, etc. Leonardo da Vinci was pretty bright, I think, and he was a believer . . .

As for origins, the atheists don't know. So, somehow that makes us stupid? We believe an entity that we normally can't see with our eyes created everything. Do you believe in anything you can't see? I bet you do. Like electricity, radio waves, microwaves, the cells in our body, the stars and such that are seen by the Hubble, diseases, etc - one could go on and on. I guess anyone who believes that things exist that he can't see is stupid.

Based on the tone of this thread and the responses, let me go ahead and say,
Nice knowing you Imperial.

To be logical is to be reasonable. There is nothing in Christianity that is reasonable.

Excuse me? If there is no purpose for the universe, then why would reason and logic even exist?

So you're basically saying if we saw god our faces will melt off (or somthin like that lol...).

I tell you what. I don't believe the sun exist. Why don't you stare at it directly for 5 minutes, and prove it exist.

Imperial nothing you said thus far is logical or even reasonable and all you are doing is insulting and using old worn out already refuted arguments. You are trying to shove your ideas down our throats (what your kind always claims we do) and why? What are you doing this for? You have already lost, you have no valid points what so ever. All you do is repeat the same junk over and over again. There is no point in arguing with someone who has no proof or logical points, please prove that you are so called more logical. Go on prove it! Let's see what you have... oh right, you don't have ANYTHING!!!! Your "Amazing Atheist" isn't so amazing and all of his more than weak arguments have been refuted time and again in the main site and on the board, do a little reading! All you are doing is saying "No you are wrong and I am logical!" That is not an argument. But no, you insist that you are right.. yet you can't back up anything you say.... interesting.

You need to be educated on this, there are so many books about this, have you even read any of them? Have you even read the Bible? Have you even done more than just skim the main site? There is no way you have read and fully understood all the articles there, so why don't you give it a try. Come back when you have something useful to say.

Imperial,

You still have not accounted for logic, or answered any of the other questions posed to you.

]Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy, Logical Fallacy...

I think you had a few more than that.

What ISNT logical fallacy with you?

Actual arguments that make use of logic, rational thinking and facts.

I gave you a video slamming down concrete reasons, i stated my proofs.

Which I answered point for point. I also pointed out that those videos which you so enthusiastically embrace are devoid of any proper thinking.

It's all Logical Fallacy to you.

Facts are facts. If something you said is fallacious I can't help it. Why don't you rather try and show how your proofs are not fallacious?

You have been stating logical fallacy's by not stating anything logical at all.

That's too funny.

Let me get this straight. You were the one who said:

Atheism = Logical with some Proof

. I have been asking all along for you to provide some argumentation to back up your statement, assuming that if you made such a statement, you actually have at least a rudimentary grasp of what it means. I furthermore provided you with 24 logical arguments for the existence of God, which you ignored and tried to hand-wave away.

When I then point out that what you think are arguments are actually logical fallacies, you want to accuse me of not saying anything logical? Pointing out fallacies are part of logical reasoning, something that you have not shown at all so far, as I demonstrated.

Your objection here is unfortunately just another example of how you wish to assert, but not argue in a rational and logical way.

Is it a logical fallacy by saying that since im speaking against you? Probably...

No, it's not personal for me. You indicated that you have some logical proof for atheism and I want you to account for logic, since that logically precedes an appeal to logic, and I want to see the proofs for atheism that you claimed you had, presented as arguments and not assertions.

The proofs i listed is information that we actually HAVE.

Information is not an argument. Arguments consist of premises and a conclusion, as I already explained to you.

FYI buddy

I am not your "buddy."

it's impossible to prove that there is a real God.

That is just another assertion. You have asserted, re-asserted, and asserted again. But still no proper logical argument.

Prove me wrong by splitting a sea in two, prove me wrong by making it rain fire. You can't. OH gee another Logical Fallacy.

How do you know I, or someone else can't, or did not, do those things? Would you believe in God if someone did do those things?

I believe Gman already handled the reverse of that challenge.

When people choose between Atheism and Christianity, they're choosing between taking the world for what it is and living their lives the way they want,

What does "taking the world for what it is" mean? Who determines that, and on what basis? We already know that atheists do not wish to be accountable, and you confirmed that here.

or choosing to restrict their lives to an uncredited book of fantasy.

You are certainly adept at rolling out logical fallacies. You have not yet showed that either of your assertions here "uncredited" and "fantasy" are true. Until you don't provide some arguments for that, it will stand as further proof of your inability or unwillingness to provide any kind of argumentation.

That's all this argument comes down to.

No it does not just come down to this. It comes down to what makes more sense, what is more rational and more logical. Your appeal to emotion here is none of those.

YOU are spitting Logical Fallacys by not realizing this.

Why don't you point out the logical fallacies that I have been "spitting"? Please name them, as I did with yours.

I addressed your proofs point by point. No response to that? I have asked you numerous questions throughout this thread...no real answers. I have asked you to account for the logic that you claim to hold to, as well as the proof for atheism (which are not proofs against God, but actual proof FOR atheism), which you have not provided.

Now while this is mildly entertaining, I'm afraid that we have not really progressed very far. You have failed to shake my belief in God, in fact, your total lack of any type of logical argumentation have strengthened my belief in the untenability of atheism as a rational alternative.

So if God can be eternal, why can't the universe? What if the Universe and the very first organisms are the real eternal ones? Evolution is a highly possible. Why can't the very first eternal organisms evolve and get more complexed based on their living enviornments?

How is it more believable that there was an entity that was eternal instead that already knew how to make everything work. What kind of mouths to give us, what our source of energy would be. Its unlikely that an eternal being could get it without seeing ane example, however according to Christianity, god had none since he created everything (therefore he was there before anything else was). However evolution gradually changes organisms based on living conditions, allowing the organisms body to get more sophisticated.

Oh no... Evolution is ridiculous. Somthing like that could never happen. But a divine entity that created everything from nothing that we learned about by reading a book... Ya that definatly makes more sense.


^ this is all theoretical of course, but i think i've made a point. Unless August wants to call it Logical Fallacy just for fun..