Evidence for God from Science

Absolute is your word. I never used it.
I don't see what sincerity has to even do with what we are talking about.

Hebrews does not even suggest that this definition is to be absolute, (I didn't say it did) so the burden is on you if you wish to take issue with my describing this as too narrow from the OP's perspective. (Since the bible says "faith is....," how does that put the burden on me? Is the bible wrong? My friend, the burden on you to demonstrate where the scripture is insufficient.) Have you never looked outside of the bible for further reading, or do all of your thoughts come from the bible alone. (Now you just sound like you are trying to pick a fight. Of course I do.) I said the definition was too narrow. (So, the bible is too narrow in it's definition of faith?) I stand by this and challenge you to show me that the Hebrews definition alone is to be kept with no further expansion. (I didn't say one could not expound on it further. I said it was adequate to describe Christian faith.) I like the Hebrews definition: I think it's great, but the OP was too narrow by sticking entirely with this definition. Frankly, it was risible! The original post had nothing to do with this.

The original challenge was made. Does evil have to exist for there to be free will? The OP asked for scripture to back up this point of view. So, either this is not your(I'm using 'your' in general terms) point of view, or it is your point of view, and you have failed to site scripture that defends this position.

jlay wrote:Since the bible says "faith is....," how does that put the burden on me? Is the bible wrong? My friend, the burden on you to demonstrate where the scripture is insufficient.

I never said scripture was insufficient; I said the OP's definition was too narrow. Do you believe that Hebrews 11:1 is the be all and end all when describing faith.

jlay wrote:Now you just sound like you are trying to pick a fight. Of course I do.

Hoorah!

jlay wrote:So, the bible is too narrow in it's definition of faith?

Nope, never said that! Things have moved on somewhat since Hebrews 11:1 was written, and Hebrews 11:1 does not even hint that this was to be the only definition of faith. Faith can mean many things, and this was precisely my point. I fear you are a literalist.

jlay wrote:I didn't say one could not expound on it further. I said it was adequate to describe Christian faith.

It is adequate for Christian-Christian fellowship, perhaps, but not when defending one's faith to swine!

jlay wrote:The original post had nothing to do with this.

I don't care - the OP said it!

jlay wrote:The original challenge was made. Does evil have to exist for there to be free will? The OP asked for scripture to back up this point of view. So, either this is not your(I'm using 'your' in general terms) point of view, or it is your point of view, and you have failed to site scripture that defends this position.

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I clearly did not address that point...I have failed in nothing! If you're having problems then look at my first response. I explicitly challenge the OP to show how God could carry out a logical inconsistency. Go back and have a little read. I have failed in nothing I have committed to! Next!

"Faith commences with the conviction of the mind based on adequate evidence: it continues in the confidence of the heart or emotions based on conviction, and it is crowned in the consent of the will, by means of which the conviction and confidence are expressed in conduct."

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

I know which description I would use when debating a non-Christian!

Thank you , B.W for clarifying my point that free will was exercised and choice was demonstrated before the fall, and that the knowledge of good and evil is not required to have free will or choice, which you and your friends tell the non believer on this site all the time. The reason I started with this point is because people like yourself will try to fall back on choice and free will as there final stand in this debate so I had to address that first. Now we can move on.
Now back to God and his mistake, because i personally believe he made a mistake. I also believe he is not all knowing, there are countless scripture to indicate that. I know you want me to list the versus, I dont know the exact locations of all of them but i can decribe the scripture and you will know what im talking about. Lets see , Adam where are you? And God sent angels to sodom and ghomora to see if they were all evil, you get the point. So because God is not all knowing he can therefore make a mistake.

osirisravanz wrote:Thank you , B.W for clarifying my point that free will was exercised and choice was demonstrated before the fall, and that the knowledge of good and evil is not required to have free will or choice, which you and your friends tell the non believer on this site all the time. The reason I started with this point is because people like yourself will try to fall back on choice and free will as there final stand in this debate so I had to address that first. Now we can move on.
Now back to God and his mistake, because i personally believe he made a mistake. I also believe he is not all knowing, there are countless scripture to indicate that. I know you want me to list the versus, I dont know the exact locations of all of them but i can decribe the scripture and you will know what im talking about. Lets see , Adam where are you? And God sent angels to sodom and ghomora to see if they were all evil, you get the point. So because God is not all knowing he can therefore make a mistake.

The point you made about Genesis 3:9 could be seen as God asking a rhetorical question. God asks another rhetorical question to Cain in Genesis 4:9. It doesn't suggest that God doesn't know the answer already. The part about God sending the angels to see if all the people were evil is explained if you continue reading about what happens after lot meets the 2 visitors. It is good to see you asking these questions, because it shows that you're searching for the truth. There are many apparent contradictions in the Bible. These "contradictions" disappear when you put the whole Bible in context. Continue to ask questions here, and even question God himself. If you are truly searching he will reveal Himself to you.

thanks RickD for not jumping down my throat out of the gate, i appreciate that

RickD do understand the signifigance of God being all knowing and allowing satan to temp Adam and Eve?

osirisravanz wrote:Thank you , B.W for clarifying my point that free will was exercised and choice was demonstrated before the fall, and that the knowledge of good and evil is not required to have free will or choice, which you and your friends tell the non believer on this site all the time. The reason I started with this point is because people like yourself will try to fall back on choice and free will as there final stand in this debate so I had to address that first. Now we can move on.

Now back to God and his mistake, because i personally believe he made a mistake. I also believe he is not all knowing, there are countless scripture to indicate that. I know you want me to list the versus, I dont know the exact locations of all of them but i can decribe the scripture and you will know what im talking about. Lets see , Adam where are you? And God sent angels to sodom and ghomora to see if they were all evil, you get the point. So because God is not all knowing he can therefore make a mistake.

Job 11:7 - "Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty?

So you think you have a proved God made a mistake and not all knowing simply because you believe this to be true?

You know not God or his ways. God calls because he is just and it's called communcation. Kiel and Delitzch Commentary expresses it this way:

Gen 3:9-13
The man could not hide himself from God. “Jehovah God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?” Not that He was ignorant of his hiding-place, but to bring him to a confession of his sin. And when Adam said that he had hidden himself through fear of his nakedness, and thus sought to hide the sin behind its consequences, his disobedience behind the feeling of shame; this is not to be regarded as a sign of peculiar obduracy, but easily admits of a psychological explanation, viz., that at the time he actually thought more of his nakedness and shame than of his transgression of the divine command, and his consciousness of the effects of his sin was keener than his sense of the sin itself. To awaken the latter God said, “Who told thee..."

He calls to awake and let us know we cannot hide as a way to approach him through his grace. Do you know Hebrew grammar? Do you really understand how God chooses to reveal himself as evidenced from the Hebrew text of the Old Testament or the Greek of the New? Do you?

You are proving yourself in error. Like I alluded too before concerning your motives, you are not here to learn or explore the deep things of God but rather TEACH — i.e. CONVERT us to your ideas and therefore are unteachable, wise in your own conceit, unwilling to listen to any other view other than your own. Lucifer tried similar tactics ago — had the same pride and indictments against God as you pose. Amazing…

You do not know my evidence nor my point of view, nor are you willing to listen to reason and look at evidences. You assume you know, but you do not. You cannot answer the simple question: How to you refine and make precious metals perfectly pure?

So it is you that has to look at these scriptures and disprove them — you will be unable too…

Deuteronomy 32:3, 4 - "For I will proclaim the name of the LORD; ascribe greatness to our God!"The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he."

Job 34:10, 11, 12 - "Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong. 11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him. 12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice."

Job 37:23 - "The Almighty--we cannot find him; he is great in power; justice and abundant righteousness he will not violate."

Job 36:23 - "Who has prescribed for him his way, or who can say, 'You have done wrong'?"

Romans 11:33 - "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!"

Proverbs 17:3 — “The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the LORD tests hearts.”

Again how to you purify precious metals?
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B.W do you even listen to what I say? your question about how you refine metals is redundant. im not concerned about the current state of man and his relationship with God , if I were that question would be relevant. My concerns are about the beginning of Man, before the fall, and the significance of that event. And why God allowed satan in the Garden in the first place.

osirisravanz wrote:B.W do you even listen to what I say? your question about how you refine metals is redundant. im not concerned about the current state of man and his relationship with God , if I were that question would be relevant. My concerns are about the beginning of Man, before the fall, and the significance of that event. And why God allowed satan in the Garden in the first place.

The question has everything to do with your topic...
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@B.W this is my topic " I think God made a mistake or he's insane" explain how refining precious metals is related?

osirisravanz wrote:@B.W this is my topic " I think God made a mistake or he's insane" explain how refining precious metals is related?

I think we have all answered your questions.. And yet it seems you keep reiterating the same question over and over again. Obviously this is just your opinion. We have shown that God doesn't make robots.. But it seems no matter how far we go with this, your opinion won't change..

So my question is.. What are you doing here and what do you want from us? Also why is this topic in the science section? In the future, please take time to look where you are posting.. Your topic is more of a theological question than a scientific one.

Thanks..

everyone should read paradise lost and paradise regained it adresses why god alowed man to be tempted.

osirisravanz wrote:@B.W this is my topic " I think God made a mistake or he's insane" explain how refining precious metals is related?

It involves a process to remove dross (impurities). It takes intelligence, planning, preparation, process before the final product can be had. You can't make a mistake nor be insane about this type of work.
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God premited us to be tempted because he loved us and wanted us to be able to return that love. you can take someone and p;ut them in slavery and be the nicest person in the world to them treat them as if they where you child but you will never know if they love you back because they have no choice in the matter so really if you think about it the first book is a book of bitter sweet love! and also read the book of Job