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Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:07 pm
by jlay
Zoe is right, Kristoffer. Honestly, what do you have to loose?
Control?

I don't know that anyone could pray to God,(the true one) unless they were in a position that they could humbly confess that maybe their own worldview (atheistic, agnostic, Hindu, whatever) is incorrect, and they are sincerely ready to submit to His existence. Is there any evidence to suggest that God will hear the prayer of an unbeleiver? Praying to God would be evidence of belief. Telling someone to 'experiment' and pretend they believe is not the same as belief, and is highly off base, IMO. Truth seeking by its nature is humility. I wouldn't dare you to pray. I'd dare you to humble yourself, and sincerely consider the evidence.
What do you have to lose? If God isn't real then nothing will happen.
How is that biblical? The bible says that God resist the proud. If Kris is only pretending to believe to see if he gets a repsonse, then he will likely hear nothing, and then be another who says, "I prayed, and nothing happened." Thus, only further hardening his heart.
The Creator is not obligated to the creature.
The doctrine of total depravity doesn't necessitate people having no goodness in them, but that no goodness is perfectly good. Most "goodness" is still polluted with selfish desires or selfish motivations
Zoe, Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you borrowing from Arminianism here? I thought TD from a calvanist was just that. NO Goodness at all.
If it is similar to a "Ethical Formulation of Moral Correction", then I have done that over and over again. Everyone has faults and everyone should be capable of reforming.
Kris,
Trying to correct moral faults sounds like a noble endevour. However, it overlooks the main gist. You don't need correcting unless you are morally faulty. So, at best you can be a reformed sinner. A reformed sinner is still a sinner. If I murder someone, and then reform, I am still a murderer. A reformed murderer, but a murderer none-the-less. But hey, if there is no God, then there is no objective moral standard to even aspire to. Morality is just an illusion. And why should we aspire to a standard that doesn't exist?

Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:36 pm
by sinnerbybirth
jlay wrote:
Zoe is right, Kristoffer. Honestly, what do you have to loose?
Control?

I don't know that anyone could pray to God,(the true one) unless they were in a position that they could humbly confess that maybe their own worldview (atheistic, agnostic, Hindu, whatever) is incorrect, and they are sincerely ready to submit to His existence. Is there any evidence to suggest that God will hear the prayer of an unbeleiver? Praying to God would be evidence of belief. Telling someone to 'experiment' and pretend they believe is not the same as belief, and is highly off base, IMO. Truth seeking by its nature is humility. I wouldn't dare you to pray. I'd dare you to humble yourself, and sincerely consider the evidence.

jlay, what about the story of Jonah?

14 Therefore they called out to the Lord, “O Lord, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not on us innocent blood, for you, O Lord, have done as it pleased you.” 15 So they picked up Jonah and hurled him into the sea, and the sea ceased from its raging. 16 Then the men feared the Lord exceedingly, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows.

They did more for Jonah than Jonah had been willing to do for them. When they saw that the cause was hopeless, they asked Jonah's God for His forgiveness for throwing Jonah into the stormy sea. Sometimes unsaved people put believers to shame by their honesty, sympathy, and sacrifice.
They confessed, "For you, O Lord, have done as it pleased you". There's no evidence that they abandoned their gods. When the storm ceased, the men feared God even more and made vows to Him.

Am I wrong? If so, please correct me brother.

Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:22 pm
by zoegirl
Jlay, why wouldn't God hear the prayer of an unbeliever? If He can't then how in the world did any of us come to God?

If Kristoffer is truly interested, even a little bit, then asking God to reveal Himself could certainly mean that God reveals HImself!! Didn't God reveal HImself fully to Saul??!?!? And a more hard-hearted, hard-headed man in scripture you wouldn't find.

You seem to continue to want to ascribe limitations to God with respect to an unbeliever. But God can do anything, including softening a heart.

And yes, I do dare him to. I challenge him to investigate, to question, to pray. Ask God and see what happens. Oh my, what have I done?? y:-? I think God can handle his heart.

I certainly didn't mean to imply anything against total depravity.
Total depravity...many people hear this and immediately think totally evil and then they will point to some altruistic action that some unbeliever will do. The best description I have heard with resepct to TD is that it refers to the motivation behind the heart, that it is in rebellion to God and that Man will not actively seek God out.

Best descrption I have seen is from John Piper http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibr ... #Depravity
3. Total Depravity

When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man.

There is no doubt that man could perform more evil acts toward his fellow man than he does. But if he is restrained from performing more evil acts by motives that are not owing to his glad submission to God, then even his "virtue" is evil in the sight of God.

Romans 14:23 says, "Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." This is a radical indictment of all natural "virtue" that does not flow from a heart humbly relying on God's grace.

The terrible condition of man's heart will never be recognized by people who assess it only in relation to other men. Romans 14:23 makes plain that depravity is our condition in relation to God primarily, and only secondarily in relation to man. Unless we start here we will never grasp the totality of our natural depravity.

Man's depravity is total in at least four senses.

Our rebellion against God is total.

Apart from the grace of God there is no delight in the holiness of God, and there is no glad submission to the sovereign authority of God.

Of course totally depraved men can be very religious and very philanthropic. They can pray and give alms and fast, as Jesus said (Matthew 6:1-18). But their very religion is rebellion against the rights of their Creator, if it does not come from a childlike heart of trust in the free grace of God. Religion is one of the chief ways that man conceals his unwillingness to forsake self-reliance and bank all his hopes on the unmerited mercy of God (Luke 18:9-14; Colossians 2:20-23).

The totality of our rebellion is seen in Romans 3:9-10 and 18. "I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: None is righteous, no not one; no one seeks for God....There is no fear of God before their eyes."

It is a myth that man in his natural state is genuinely seeking God. Men do seek God. But they do not seek him for who he is. They seek him in a pinch as one who might preserve them from death or enhance their worldly enjoyments. Apart from conversion, no one comes to the light of God.

Some do come to the light. But listen to what John 3:20-21 says about them. "Every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."

Yes there are those who come to the light—namely those whose deeds are the work of God. "Wrought in God" means worked by God. Apart from this gracious work of God all men hate the light of God and will not come to him lest their evil be exposed—this is total rebellion. "No one seeks for God...There is no fear of God before their eyes!"

In his total rebellion everything man does is sin.

In Romans 14:23 Paul says, "Whatever is not from faith is sin." Therefore, if all men are in total rebellion, everything they do is the product of rebellion and cannot be an honor to God, but only part of their sinful rebellion. If a king teaches his subjects how to fight well and then those subjects rebel against their king and use the very skill he taught them to resist him, then even those skills become evil.

Thus man does many things which he can only do because he is created in the image of God and which in the service of God could be praised. But in the service of man's self-justifying rebellion, these very things are sinful.

In Romans 7:18 Paul says, "I know that no good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh." This is a radical confession of the truth that in our rebellion nothing we think or feel is good. It is all part of our rebellion. The fact that Paul qualifies his depravity with the words, "that is, in my flesh," shows that he is willing to affirm the good of anything that the Spirit of God produces in him (Romans 15:18). "Flesh" refers to man in his natural state apart from the work of God's Spirit. So what Paul is saying in Romans 7:18 is that apart from the work of God's Spirit all we think and feel and do is not good.

NOTE: We recognize that the word "good" has a broad range of meanings. We will have to use it in a restricted sense to refer to many actions of fallen people which in relation are in fact not good.

For example we will have to say that it is good that most unbelievers do not kill and that some unbelievers perform acts of benevolence. What we mean when we call such actions good is that they more or less conform to the external pattern of life that God has commanded in Scripture.

However, such outward conformity to the revealed will of God is not righteousness in relation to God. It is not done out of reliance on him or for his glory. He is not trusted for the resources, though he gives them all. Nor is his honor exalted, even though that's his will in all things (1 Corinthians 10:31). Therefore even these "good" acts are part of our rebellion and are not "good" in the sense that really counts in the end—in relation to God.

Man's inability to submit to God and do good is total.

Picking up on the term "flesh" above (man apart from the grace of God) we find Paul declaring it to be totally enslaved to rebellion. Romans 8:7-8 says, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

The "mind of the flesh" is the mind of man apart from the indwelling Spirit of God ("You are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God really dwells in you," Romans 8:9). So natural man has a mindset that does not and cannot submit to God. Man cannot reform himself.

Ephesians 2:1 says that we Christians were all once "dead in trespasses and sins." The point of deadness is that we were incapable of any life with God. Our hearts were like a stone toward God (Ephesians 4:18; Ezekiel 36:26). Our hearts were blind and incapable of seeing the glory of God in Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4-6). We were totally unable to reform ourselves.

Our rebellion is totally deserving of eternal punishment.

Ephesians 2:3 goes on to say that in our deadness we were "children of wrath." That is, we were under God's wrath because of the corruption of our hearts that made us as good as dead before God.

The reality of hell is God's clear indictment of the infiniteness of our guilt. If our corruption were not deserving of an eternal punishment God would be unjust to threaten us with a punishment so severe as eternal torment. But the Scriptures teach that God is just in condemning unbelievers to eternal hell (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Matthew 5:29f; 10:28; 13:49f; 18:8f; 25:46; Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10). Therefore, to the extent that hell is a total sentence of condemnation, to that extent must we think of ourselves as totally blameworthy apart from the saving grace of God.

In summary, total depravity means that our rebellion against God is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sin, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.

It is hard to exaggerate the importance of admitting our condition to be this bad. If we think of ourselves as basically good or even less than totally at odds with God, our grasp of the work of God in redemption will be defective. But if we humble ourselves under this terrible truth of our total depravity, we will be in a position to see and appreciate the glory and wonder of the work of God discussed in the next four points

Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:22 pm
by B. W.
zoegirl wrote:Jlay, why wouldn't God hear the prayer of an unbeliever? If He can't then how in the world did any of us come to God?
If God did not hear, or can answer, a prayer of an unbeliever, then no one could be saved...

Luke 18:13, 14
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Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:42 am
by zoegirl
Jlay, I'm certainly not saying that someone who has declared themselves completely opposed to God would get a response, but then again, that person wouldn't evenbother to ask God anything now would he?

Someone who is interested and curious but highly doubtful....I think God could listen...

Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:42 am
by B. W.
[quote="zoegirl"]Jlay, I'm certainly not saying that someone who has declared themselves completely opposed to God would get a response, but then again, that person wouldn't evenbother to ask God anything now would he?

Also, an Atheists prayer:

“If God is real, then God, show me…”

God answers Romans 1:19, 20 but they do not acknowledge the answer received, Romans 1:21…

Now off topic and an FYI:

July 27 today, I air as a guest on the Herman and Sharron Bailey Show on CTN Show airs at 8am and 3pm MST zone. If interested, you can see what I look like today 3pm MST — 5pm EST on CTN. Show may air rest of as well…

Blessings!
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Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:06 pm
by jlay
If God did not hear, or can answer, a prayer of an unbeliever, then no one could be saved...

Luke 18:13, 14
I am surprised some of you are so shocked by this position, as there are some very bright Christian minds who agree with me.
BW, i fail to see how this passage relates to the point. He certainly believed in God, or he would not have prayed.

A person is not saved by prayer, but by faith in Christ. God has already done all the work to save us before we even exist. I have never read anything in the scripture on salvation that states what you are saying. Prayer is for those with relationship (believers) with God. Once someone prays, "save me," they have already crossed into grace.
Zoe, if you want to defend your advice so be it. My contention is that it is misguided and not scripturally supported. To tell an admitted skeptic, and one who has trended towards antagonism, (IMO) to just experiement with something as sacred as prayer is just not sound.
You seem to continue to want to ascribe limitations to God with respect to an unbeliever.
This couldn't be further from the truth. God has ascribed His limitations in how He deals with us. Just as Christ said, NO ONE comes to the Father, except through me. That is a limitation God has imposed, and we are to honor it. I am just trying to comply. When I say, 'Will God hear,' I certainly am not limiting God. I know God is capable of hearing. That is not what I am stating. It is God who accepts, and God who refuses, according to His perfect will.
jlay, what about the story of Jonah?
"Pick me up and throw me into the sea," he replied, "and it will become calm. I know that it is my fault that this great storm has come upon you."
How do you know god heard them? Jonah told them what to do. What Jonah prophesied happened, and the men, BELIEVED. they were converted right there. It even says, they made vows.

All I have time for now.

Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:47 pm
by B. W.
jlay wrote:
If God did not hear, or can answer, a prayer of an unbeliever, then no one could be saved...

Luke 18:13, 14
I am surprised some of you are so shocked by this position, as there are some very bright Christian minds who agree with me.
BW, i fail to see how this passage relates to the point. He certainly believed in God, or he would not have prayed.

A person is not saved by prayer, but by faith in Christ. God has already done all the work to save us before we even exist. I have never read anything in the scripture on salvation that states what you are saying. Prayer is for those with relationship (believers) with God. Once someone prays, "save me," they have already crossed into grace.
Zoe, if you want to defend your advice so be it. My contention is that it is misguided and not scripturally supported. To tell an admitted skeptic, and one who has trended towards antagonism, (IMO) to just experiement with something as sacred as prayer is just not sound.
You seem to continue to want to ascribe limitations to God with respect to an unbeliever.
This couldn't be further from the truth. God has ascribed His limitations in how He deals with us. Just as Christ said, NO ONE comes to the Father, except through me. That is a limitation God has imposed, and we are to honor it. I am just trying to comply. When I say, 'Will God hear,' I certainly am not limiting God. I know God is capable of hearing. That is not what I am stating. It is God who accepts, and God who refuses, according to His perfect will.
jlay, what about the story of Jonah?
"Pick me up and throw me into the sea," he replied, "and it will become calm. I know that it is my fault that this great storm has come upon you."
How do you know god heard them? Jonah told them what to do. What Jonah prophesied happened, and the men, BELIEVED. they were converted right there. It even says, they made vows.

All I have time for now.
I understand what you are saying jlay. People pray according to the faith they have. An unbelieving atheist mocks god in a prayer to challenge God to prove himself and according to faith in his/her belief system receives. God does answers, but their faith blocks out the answer. Remember, not even a sparrow falls without God knowing about it.

Bible does say:

"For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED." 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" Rom 10:13, 14 NKJV

The context leads into Romans 10:17 “…faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

Faith in God (and away from self) comes by “hearing by the word of God.”

From type of prayer is how one cries out to the Lord. Unbelievers are saved by such prayers.

Also, I think what we need to do here is to define what type of praying are we talking about before anyone goes further in this discussion. There are many types of prayers some are heard by God, others are not, as Jlay points out.

For a reference on this look at Matthew 6:7 — some prayers pointless… suggesting — not heard / not honored.

Again, maybe we should define the type of prayers not heard verses ones that are. The ones God's honors and those God does not honor. It appears to me, Jlay and others are speaking about certain types of prayers being interpreted in a general sense, and thus the topic is spinning around.

There are prayers God will not answer: For example, the young teenage girl prays, “Oh God, make that hunky guy mine or I'll die…”

The drunk driver seeing police lights flashing and hearing the siren sounding from his rear view mirror, “…dear Lord, get me out this jam, and I'll go to Church forever and stop drinking too!”

So what type of prayers are we trying to define?

The kind a sinner has when coming to his/her senses heard from the message of God's word variously and diversely spoken to him causing him to cry out, “Save me — dear God, have mercy on me...”

Or the drunk driver type???
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Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:19 pm
by Kristoffer
B. W. wrote: Also, an Atheists prayer:

“If God is real, then God, show me…”

God answers Romans 1:19, 20 but they do not acknowledge the answer received, Romans 1:21…
Please do not bunch me in with "they", also i saw that it was mentioned that athiesm is a "world view", it is not naturalism or nihilism, it is just the position of rejecting certain claims, even christians have been called athiest... So why do people who have been called it, find it so offensive for other people to be like that? :cry:

I have asked that again and again...I have also tried the other one.

"God, if you are there and think I deserve death...then strike me down" I guess i don't deserve to be striked down :/

The only fear is fear of someone stronger than yourself. But the reason for the fear is because might doesn't make right. people are not good because they can over power you.

Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:30 pm
by zoegirl
Jlay,

I agree that anyone who comes without some part of him sincerely wanting some answers will not receive them (or, as BW says, the answer he wants).

BUt ultimately it is a challenge, a challenge to see where the heart lies. If anyone has any sincere desire to actually know God, then he should pray, absolutely. And yes, I think that means he should invite God to reveal Himself.

If he isn't sincere, if there is not a little part of him that wants to know, then he is wasting his time here and he won't bother praying and won't receive the answers he is looking for.

Where does the relationship begin? How does that faith manifest itself if not through prayer? IF praying to God to reveal Himself is wrong to someone who is sincere, then show me the scripture. Even so, I still say God reveals HImself to those He chooses, He chose to reveal Himself to Saul. Read about C.S. Lewis's conversion and you will read someone whom God pursued.
He wrote in Surprised by Joy: "Amiable agnostics will talk cheerfully about 'man's search for God.' To me, as I then was, they might as well have talked about the mouse's search for the cat."
"You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England.... But who can duly adore that Love which will open the high gates to a prodigal who is brought in kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance to escape."

When God drew Lewis' heart to himself, he became conscious of the presence of his own sinfulness. "For the first time I examined myself with a seriously practical purpose," wrote Lewis. "And there I found what appalled me: a zoo of lusts, a bedlam of ambitions, a nursery of fears, a harem of fondled hatreds. My name is legion."

Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:58 pm
by sinnerbybirth
jlay wrote:
sinnerbybirth wrote:jlay, what about the story of Jonah?
"Pick me up and throw me into the sea," he replied, "and it will become calm. I know that it is my fault that this great storm has come upon you."
How do you know god heard them? Jonah told them what to do. What Jonah prophesied happened, and the men, BELIEVED. they were converted right there. It even says, they made vows.

All I have time for now.
Hey jlay, I don't know if GOD heard them or not. I don't believe Jonah prophesied either, When the sailors asked Jonah what was to be done, he replied, "Pick me up and hurl me into the sea; then the sea will quite down for you, for I know it is because of me that this great tempest has come upon you." What do his words prove? Not only Jonah's personal sense of guilt, but his complete surrender of himself to God, whether to live or to die. GOD had quite talking to Jonah at that time and needed to get his attention, he did so by the tempest. Converted? They offered a sacrifice in praise to the LORD (Yahweh, Israel's God) and promised (made vows) to continue their praise. But this was done for fear, and not from a pure heart and affection, according to God's word. Anyway, my point was the prayers of the salors aboard the ship. Let me ask you a question, honestly, how can you start a relationship with anyone, much less GOD, without conversation? I questioned GOD alot.....before I came to know Christ.

GOD Bless, jlay

Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:45 pm
by zoegirl
Kristoffer wrote:
B. W. wrote: Also, an Atheists prayer:

“If God is real, then God, show me…”

God answers Romans 1:19, 20 but they do not acknowledge the answer received, Romans 1:21…
Please do not bunch me in with "they", also i saw that it was mentioned that athiesm is a "world view", it is not naturalism or nihilism, it is just the position of rejecting certain claims, even christians have been called athiest... So why do people who have been called it, find it so offensive for other people to be like that? :cry:

I have asked that again and again...I have also tried the other one.

"God, if you are there and think I deserve death...then strike me down" I guess i don't deserve to be striked down :/

The only fear is fear of someone stronger than yourself. But the reason for the fear is because might doesn't make right. people are not good because they can over power you.
Of course, one could argue that you being here is a way for HIm to reveal Himself :esurprised: :ewink:

Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:54 pm
by jlay
Thank you BW. I was thinking on these scriptures myself, and obviously ran out of time. Had a board meeting.
Let me make it clear that I am specifically addressing the comments from Zoe to Kris. But, also a broader issue.

Let me rephrase and then I think we will all find the unity that God's Word demands. And we are commanded to find unity.

God will not hear a prayer not prayed in faith. (In another sense, this applies to the Christian as well.)
As you point out, BW, If someone comes to God sincerely, then they have in essence already yielded to a mind of belief. Remember we are talking specifically about prayer here, the prayer of someone who does not believe. Prayer is sacred. It is not to be thrown out as an experiment for a non-believer. Now, I would contend, that if, in a sinere heart, they beseech God, they are in essence, faithing. They are acting on the measure of faith they have at that moment in their life. Of course God will never reject anyone who comes to Him this way. "Whoever seeks me with their whole heart, will seek me and find me." That is a promise from God. Those who do seek this way, WILL find. It doesn't say, some. Why? Because sincere seeking is a pattern of growing belief. A pattern of one yielding one's will and mind to the truth that God has already revealed. Seeking is a response to the measure of faith within us. It is the difference between resisting and submitting. It is altogether nonsense to me, to say that a non-believer could pray, or even would pray. You know what a sincere seeker is? A convert. God's Word says it. Those who heart seek, WILL find.

The prayer, "God reveal yourself to me," says nothing in and of itself. it is the heart that matters. Depending on the heart, one person could pray this prayer, and it is nothing more than an attempt to selfishly fulfill a desire or prove a point. For another, this could be a sign of yielding one's mind to God, which is what? A sign of belief.

Anyone's story is a process. As one yields to faith, God reveals more. I'm sure every Christian can share this same testimony. Listen guys we all know the evidence. We know that God is real, that Jesus is Lord, and that the resurrection is a fact. We know it. We've responded affirmatively in faith to it. Before we knew that, we responded to those most basic things that God has made clear to everyone. The unbeliever has this same evidence. They reject it. They refuse to submit their will and mind to it. That person can not be heard by God. Not because God is limited, but because He refuses out of the very nature of His character. There is NO faith in them.

Zoe, your intitial challenge essentially said, what do you have to lose? This is exactly the question Kris, or any other skeptic has to ask. He has everything to lose, and Kris knows it. His entire worldview is at stake. He must ask, "What am I willing to lose?" One can not hold on to pride and self-soverignty and come to God in sincerity. The only alternative to sincerity is pride. And God resist the proud.
Zoe, you quoted Lewis, but only make my point.
I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed:
Notice the order of events. Evidence, belief, then prayer.
Zoe, I am not saying God doesn't pursue us. That couldn't be further from what I am saying. He is most certainly pursuing Kris.
Hey jlay, I don't know if GOD heard them or not.
Then, the rest of the explanation is not topical. Either you have evidence that God hears the unbeliever, or not. Apparently you were sighting Jonah as evidence that he does, yet you clearly state, "I don't know if God heard them or not."
how can you start a relationship with anyone, much less GOD, without conversation? I questioned GOD alot.....before I came to know Christ.
I would ask you, how could you question someone you didn't believe existed. God began a relationship with us before we were formed in the womb. So, you don't have to 'start' a relationship with God. In fact, God started it, and God finished it. All we can do is respond in faith. The prayer of faith will be heard. if you questioned God, whether you were angry, frustrated, etc. you were still coming to him. And you can't come to someone that you don't believe is real.

James 1:6
But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord;

Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:00 pm
by B. W.
Kristoffer wrote:
B. W. wrote:Also, an Atheists prayer: “If God is real, then God, show me…” God answers Romans 1:19, 20 but they do not acknowledge the answer received, Romans 1:21…
Please do not bunch me in with "they", also i saw that it was mentioned that athiesm is a "world view", it is not naturalism or nihilism, it is just the position of rejecting certain claims, even christians have been called athiest... So why do people who have been called it, find it so offensive for other people to be like that? :cry:

I have asked that again and again...I have also tried the other one.

"God, if you are there and think I deserve death...then strike me down" I guess i don't deserve to be striked down :/

The only fear is fear of someone stronger than yourself. But the reason for the fear is because might doesn't make right. people are not good because they can over power you.
FYI Kristoffer -

I was not even remotely hinting at you in this example. Forgive me if I came across that way. It was just a general broad brush statement to made make a point.

I rather see you standing close by the door not quite sure what to do, Revelation 3:20…

You got moxie and can still hang out here despite comments made by others.

I agree with Zoe too:
zoegirl wrote:Of course, one could argue that you being here is a way for HIm to reveal Himself :esurprised: :ewink:
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Re: Purpose of prayer

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:03 pm
by zoegirl
and so maybe He is answering your prayers?