evil and suffering

[cslewislover]

Regarding 1 Kings 22:18-23, my commentary says pretty much what the bible says, that God allowed it to happen. God allowed a lying spirit to do what it did. Just like in Job, God permits these types of things to happen. He doesn't stop all evil and misfortune. Job was tested, and often we ourselves won't know what we will do in a certain situation, until that situation actually confronts us.

[truthman]

I totally agree.

[cslewislover]

The commandment not to kill is actually a commandment not to murder: not to take innocent life. There never was a commandment not to kill in the administration of justice. God only instructed people to kill in the administration of judgement and justice.

There was never a command not to lie to a despot or murderer or criminal in order to save people's lives either. I think people would think you perverse if someone like Hitler asked where your family was, and you told him the truth. Hitler wouldn't deserve to be told the truth, and your family would deserve more from you than that.

[truthman]

The right way would be to act like Jesus. He never lied. If He didn't want to give the answer, He said nothing. You always have that option.
If you lie, you are following Satan.

[cslewislover]

The right way would be to act like Jesus. He never lied. If He didn't want to give the answer, He said nothing. You always have that option.
If you lie, you are following Satan.

You can also follow Satan by complying with Him. Yes, you could not answer, and that would be good. But there are other scenerios where you wouldn't have that option. When worse comes to worse, you need to decide what is best (in God's will) in a situation. Rahab did the right thing and lied. We aren't Jesus, Jesus is God. We may be put in situations where lying will save someone's life, and we will not have followed the worse evil in abetting in killing. God wants us to be able to think and do His will. My killing vs murder analogy still stands. From the outside, the one action could look like either murder or killing, one might not know the intent - but God does - and He even has ordered people to do it. See Micah 6:6-8. God ordered people to make sacrifices for their transgressions, but at the end of the day, He wanted people to think and do His will - not just carry out a list of "dos and don'ts."

Rahab lied, and she was not following Satan. You seem to be saying you're judging better than God, who blessed her.

[cslewislover]

I need to look it up, since I don't remember off the top of my head where it is. But, that one lady who killed the enemy of Israel by ramming a spike into his skull did the right thing, apparently. She also was deceptive, and she killed him in cold blood. Ok, Judges 4.

[truthman]

You are promoting the "let us do evil that good may come" idea.
Think about what I said. There is a limit as to how far this needs to be discussed.
You can get in the last word if you want to. I don't need to. Enough said.
God bless you, I think you are sincere in your quest for truth.

[cslewislover]

One has to be careful, too, about claiming that God's will is directed by the enemy. There is at least one more thread on this subject, if you wanted to look it up. I very much disagree with you in going along with evil so good will come of it. How could you judge that? Do you have a monopoly on truth (think about what YOU said? I've looked into this subject much already)? God is truth, and we can only seek Him and His will the best way we are able, and being open to His Holy Spirit. I am addressing what God allowed to be written for us to ponder. We are not to go along with evil, but we live in an imperfect world, to say the least.

Genesis 38 also provides an amazing story of deceit. One person deceived someone, and they deceived back - but the original person admitted that what they did was wrong and declared the other party more righteous than he. Not that either one was "righteous." No, neither was, but the second person was declared more righteous even though they had to deceive to get what was theirs rightfully, under Israel's laws.

I don't believe the bible is teaching us to be deceitful, and we certainly are not to teach that, but the bible acknowledges that not all is black and white, and we need to deal with other humans the best we can in this fallen world.

[Gabrielman]

You are promoting the "let us do evil that good may come" idea.
Think about what I said. There is a limit as to how far this needs to be discussed.
You can get in the last word if you want to. I don't need to. Enough said.
God bless you, I think you are sincere in your quest for truth.

You speak as though she is a beginner in the faith, or uneducated. She knows more about the Word than most of the people I have met, and she is very knowledgeable. I have no idea why you had to say what you did here, it was certainly uncalled for. She is not promoting the "let us do evil that good may come" idea, no one here is, what she is saying, and it is very simple, is that people who did lie in the Bible seemed to be rewarded for doing so. It comes down to being the same as self defense. If someone attacks you, you have the right to kill them if need be, yet God said "Thou shalt not murder". You are not supposed to take a life unless need be, so why would lying be any different? Why are you allowed to kill in self defense, yet not lie in self defense?

Here is a scenario I want you to consider. Let us assume that someone you care about has been kidnapped, and they are not saved in the Lord. Now let's say you get a phone call from the kidnapper. He asks you a question about weather or not you will pay the ransom and if it is en route. Now let's say you have no intention of paying him. He says, before you answer, that he will kill your loved one if you do not pay, and that you must answer now or this person will die now. If you tell the truth, this person will be killed. If you lie, then the cops will have a bit more time to mount a rescue effort, and let's say for all intents and purposes that they will succeed. Would you not lie to this criminal to save the life of someone? Mind you, if you do not answer him he will also kill them. So what would you do? Talk in circles and frustrate this killer? That would not work either, for this scenario you must either lie to him or tell him the truth. What would you do?

I am not trying to be mean here, but your response seemed condescending as though you were absolutely right, and she was uneducated. If you disagree with someone here you are free to do so, but do it in a loving and honest way. It is odd and wrong to accuse them of heresy. (saying that she is promoting something she is not) All you had to say was that you disagree and that was that. You are entitled to your beliefs, but know they are YOUR beliefs and that not everyone on this board will agree with you. There is no need to seem condescending.

Again, that is how your post seemed to me, please clarify what you meant.

[RickD]

You are promoting the "let us do evil that good may come" idea.
Think about what I said. There is a limit as to how far this needs to be discussed.
You can get in the last word if you want to. I don't need to. Enough said.
God bless you, I think you are sincere in your quest for truth.

You speak as though she is a beginner in the faith, or uneducated. She knows more about the Word than most of the people I have met, and she is very knowledgeable. I have no idea why you had to say what you did here, it was certainly uncalled for. She is not promoting the "let us do evil that good may come" idea, no one here is, what she is saying, and it is very simple, is that people who did lie in the Bible seemed to be rewarded for doing so. It comes down to being the same as self defense. If someone attacks you, you have the right to kill them if need be, yet God said "Thou shalt not murder". You are not supposed to take a life unless need be, so why would lying be any different? Why are you allowed to kill in self defense, yet not lie in self defense?

Here is a scenario I want you to consider. Let us assume that someone you care about has been kidnapped, and they are not saved in the Lord. Now let's say you get a phone call from the kidnapper. He asks you a question about weather or not you will pay the ransom and if it is en route. Now let's say you have no intention of paying him. He says, before you answer, that he will kill your loved one if you do not pay, and that you must answer now or this person will die now. If you tell the truth, this person will be killed. If you lie, then the cops will have a bit more time to mount a rescue effort, and let's say for all intents and purposes that they will succeed. Would you not lie to this criminal to save the life of someone? Mind you, if you do not answer him he will also kill them. So what would you do? Talk in circles and frustrate this killer? That would not work either, for this scenario you must either lie to him or tell him the truth. What would you do?

I am not trying to be mean here, but your response seemed condescending as though you were absolutely right, and she was uneducated. If you disagree with someone here you are free to do so, but do it in a loving and honest way. It is odd and wrong to accuse them of heresy. (saying that she is promoting something she is not) All you had to say was that you disagree and that was that. You are entitled to your beliefs, but know they are YOUR beliefs and that not everyone on this board will agree with you. There is no need to seem condescending.

Again, that is how your post seemed to me, please clarify what you meant.

Gab, Thanks for speaking up. truthman has been condescending towards a lot of people here. It smacks of the same condescention and dogmatism that eminates from some in the YEC camp when debating Creation.

[truthman]

Please tell me what I said that was condescending. I certainly have not meant to be. Please forgive me.
I was simply trying to be nice and considerate instead of stubborn and argumentative.
On the other hand, maybe others are trying to be condescending.
Although I am new to the forum, I am not a novice. I accepted Christ as my Saviour 52 years ago and have been studying a long time.

Regarding lying: Revelation 21:8 indicates that all lying is a sin that will send a person to hell. The only hope for a liar (we are all guilty) is the forgiveness of God in Jesus Christ.

[Kristoffer]

Regarding lying: Revelation 21:8 indicates that all lying is a sin that will send a person to hell. The only hope for a liar (we are all guilty) is the forgiveness of God in Jesus Christ.

Yea but revelation is(seems like it anyway) The ravings of a madman. Lying can save lives, lying can make people feel better, lying can be good.

[cslewislover]

Please tell me what I said that was condescending. I certainly have not meant to be. Please forgive me.
I was simply trying to be nice and considerate instead of stubborn and argumentative.
On the other hand, maybe others are trying to be condescending.
Although I am new to the forum, I am not a novice. I accepted Christ as my Saviour 52 years ago and have been studying a long time.

Regarding lying: Revelation 21:8 indicates that all lying is a sin that will send a person to hell. The only hope for a liar (we are all guilty) is the forgiveness of God in Jesus Christ.

Accusing someone of heresy is nice? Especially with so little information?

Regarding lying, it's a sin like anything else. A person will not go to hell for lying, they will go to hell for not accepting their creator, Jesus Christ, as Lord. To go on about lying so much can be discouraging to many, especially "younger" Christians. So many faithful people become discouraged because after they accept Christ, if they make a mistake, they feel like a failure and they can become ineffective servants of the Lord. But the Lord keeps all that are His and when you bring whatever it is to the Lord, He forgives you. It is very clear that God used situations, many of them, where people used deception in the bible. I guess he'd have to, since we're all sinners . . . Look at David and all the sin he did - big sins in the human context - but in the end it mattered not as far as his salvation goes. What matters is our heart toward Christ.

[cslewislover]

Yea but revelation is (seems like it anyway) The ravings of a madman. Lying can save lives, lying can make people feel better, lying can be good.

Kristoffer, Revelation is written in a very orderly way. How could a madman produce that? It's written in a certain style, too, that was common at the time John wrote it. I'll try and get a reference or two that explains this a bit, OK?