Evidence for God from Science

JAC wrote:Further, I appreciate J's comments on the nature of salvation, whatever Gabe may or may not have meant in his original post. In my own view, we either believe that salvation is by faith alone or we think it is by faith and something else (loving/liking God, promising to follow Him/turn from our sins, baptism, etc.). John 3:16 says the condition for salvation is faith. Anyone who adds anything to that is preaching a false gospel.

Jac, I know that this has been discussed before but for clarification...

It has been asked by Gabe why demons aren't saved when they believe that Christ is who He says He is.

It seems a valid question when we throw around the word belief.

It seems in your quote above that you are creating a distinction between faith and "loving God", as if by tacking that on adds to the salvation. It would seem to me that when one "believes" Christ, they are acknowledging who He is, what He has done, and accepted what He has done for himself. After all, if one acknowledges CHrist but does not acknowledge that action for HImself then what use is the belief?

As an example, I can "believe" someone when they tell me that the liquid in the glass is water, but what use is that belief if I don't drink? In that instance, would not the belief and the drinking be inseparable?

Let's break this down. In order to believe in Christ we need to
1) Believe who He is...this requires agreeing that He is God and we are sinners
2) Believe what He did...the requires agreeing that we need redemption
3) believe/trust that what He did for us....the implies that we place Him in the proper spot...ie...King, Redeemer...

If we don't agree that we need redemption, if we don't agree that He is Lord, then what use is this belief? Of what value?

I think this is the heart of what Nathanial is saying. All of us at one point may hate God, but as you say this is an emotion. LOving is, after all, not simply an emotion, although emotions help us integrate that belief.

it appears that Gabe denies both of those and is therefore advocating a gospel different from that which Jesus Himself gave.

Before going on in this thread, it would be wise to go back and realize that some pretty harsh thing have been said. Jac, you know that you can go overboard before. Before accusing someone of heresy let's take the time to ask posters to elaborate.

It seems that we need to clarify what each of us means by belief.

1) What does scripture say what belief is?
2) What does scripture say what works are?

We answer those 2 questions I think we will come a long way in understanding what the whole counsel of God says, as someone we know so fondly often says (J ).

(oh no, all we needed now is Byblos to be in the mix of a salvation discussion, as if things weren't complicated enough)

3) believe/trust that what He did for us....the implies that we place Him in the proper spot...ie...King, Redeemer...

The second part of Number 3 is where I think you will find the harded place to find agreement.

Jesus is revealed to us as many things in the scriptures. Kingly Messiah of Israel. Savior of Mankind. Lamb of God, etc. etc.
First, I would contend that none of us has the power or authority to place Jesus or God anywhere or in any spot. Jesus is always in His spot whether we recognize it or not. And, I'm sure your intent wasn't otherwise. I would agree with one and two

How many bible beleiving Christians can you find in this country where Jesus is truly Lord of their lives? That their financial, professional, personal and sexual lives are fully yielded to the will of God? There are a lot of people who trust Christ is the one who is their savior. Yet, they do not trust Him in their daily lives. They trust their jobs, their own resource, the education system, etc. For example, go up to your average American Christian parent and tell them that following the worlds ambitions of education, employment, and desire for success, may be contrary to God's intended plan for their children. See what kind of reaction you get.

All Christians are STILL in this body of sin. All. (Those still alive)

All the verses CSLL mentions all have explanations that do not equate with the issue of personal salvation through faith.
For example 2 Peter 1:10
Looking in context we can clearly see something.

His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness (who gave? God) through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. (as believers we still have to escpae the corruption of the world)
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.(Why should we add these things to our saving faith) 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins (Peter states that person that does not embrace and live by these attributes will be not produce, and can actually forget they are cleansed of their sins. If the believer does not live in such a way, he will fall. (that is lose his fellowship.)

First, I would contend that none of us has the power or authority to place Jesus or God anywhere or in any spot. Jesus is always in His spot whether we recognize it or not. And, I'm sure your intent wasn't otherwise. I would agree with one and two

Of course He is!! However, any unbeliever, whether through ignorance or rejection, does not accord Him His place. They don't recognize and accept His position, especially with regards to their own position with respect to Christ ("handing over our lives to Him"). They don't either know or agree that Christ is who He says He is and they certainly don't think they need CHrist. In that respect He is not accorded His place.

Ultimately when we "believe" there is a paradigm shift in the way we view ourselves and God. I think it strikes at what Gabrielman was saying. Those that believe, as demons do, reject His authority even as they understand who He is. Whereas one who believes Jesus Christ has accepted who they are, who He is, and agrees with this view. It is both a mental, spiritual, and even emotional shift. It may be an imperfect "love", but those who embrace His gift can't at the same time reject who He is.

jlay wrote:For example 2 Peter 1:10
Looking in context we can clearly see something.

His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness (who gave? God) through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. (as believers we still have to escpae the corruption of the world)
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.(Why should we add these things to our saving faith) 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins (Peter states that person that does not embrace and live by these attributes will be not produce, and can actually forget they are cleansed of their sins. If the believer does not live in such a way, he will fall. (that is lose his fellowship.)

This sounds a lot like adding to John 3:16! Jac, is this a different gospel?
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Agreed Zoe.

That does address, right belief.
But what about later. Everytime you sin, are you affording Christ His rightful position? We both know that we have come to the place you are describing. And we both know that we have also acted, thought or spoke in ways that are not in keeping with such.
Why would you conclude that a demon could be saved? James is not equating the position of demons to men. James is writing to the Jews. It's right there in the opening phrase. Just like Jesus said to His Jewish disciples, "You trust in God, trust ALSO in Me." John 14:1

but those who embrace His gift can't at the same time reject who He is.

Of course not. Not at the same time. Zoe, every Christian rejects who He is, everytime they walk unworthy of their calling. Period.

Wheels, How is that adding to the Gospel. That is instruction on living (abiding). Nothing different than what Christ taught Peter face to face in John 14-17

jlay wrote:Wheels, How is that adding to the Gospel. That is instruction on living (abiding). Nothing different than what Christ taught Peter face to face in John 14-17

I don't think so. I agree with you. Jac is the one that has stated that ANYTHING added to John 3:16 is adding to the gospel and is a different gospel.

Jac3510 wrote:And Bav, in each of your cases, if a person believes (trusts) in Jesus Christ for their eternal salvation, then yes, ALL OF THEM ARE SAVED. No other evidence is necessary. The evidence is in the fact that they did the one thing the Bible told them to do. If you want to tell Jesus He was wrong in John 3:16 and other such verses, be my guest. We've had this discussion before. Anything other than the faith alone Gospel is another gospel, which Paul expressly condemns in Gal 18-9.

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I agree, in basic principle, with Jac. I don't see how what Peter writes is adding to the gospel. Not if you read from the proper position.

There's obviously too much for me to reply to line by line here, so forgive me for generalizing your points. It's not hard to do, because the discussion has broken down along the normal Calvinist/Arminian lines:

1. To those who think you can lose your salvation (the Arminians), which includes Gabe and I'm assuming csll and Bav, you simply aren't taking John 3:16 seriously. You deny it in AT LEAST three ways:

a. The verse says everyone who believes WILL NOT PERISH. Yet you believe that some believers will perish.
b. The verse says everyone who believes HAS (present tense, meaning right now) EVERLASTING life. How long does everlasting last? Forever. You either deny that life such life is everlasting and make it temporary (you have it until you sin/stop believing/turn from God/whatever condition you want to add to the Gospel) or deny that we have it NOW, arguing that we WILL HAVE it in heaven. Both deny the verse.
c. The verse says that everyone who BELIEVES. The definition of pisteuo is believing/trusting. Either English word catches a good part of the Greek (and, for what it is worth, the Hebrew word that deals with the same concept in Gen 15:6). The word does NOT mean to repent, to make promise to be good, to turn from sin, to love God, or anything else. The word for repent is repent. The word for love God is love God, etc. You are simply adding to the Gospel.

You can site other verses like Heb 6 all you want. If you are right, at best, you have a contradiction in Scripture .If Heb 6 or 10 teach you can lose your salvation, then they contradict John 3:16. As it stands, they don't, not surprisingly. You confuse rewards in heaven and/or temporal punishment with receiving eternal life or threats of hell. Why? Simple - because both rewards and temporal punishment are based on your behavior here. You don't think that people who are REALLY EVIL could POSSIBLY deserve heaven - you can't stand the idea of such wicked people that openly hate God in heaven, so you relegate them to Hell for their behavior. There, of course, is the utter hypocrisy. None of us deserve heaven. And those of us who follow Jesus with all of are hearts deserve it NO LESS than the most vile atheists on this planet who have ever lived.

I get it. The Gospel offends you. Fine. Not my problem. It's yours, because you are the one who is denying John 3:16. And if you REALLY want other verses, we can point to Gen 15:6, John 5:24; 6:47; 20:31; Acts 16:31, and myriads of others. Not that we should need more than one . . . you don't stack up verses on one side and weigh them against those on the other. But if you really want to play it that way, the Bible, in both testaments, insists that FAITH ALONE saves, and that NOTHING else is necessary.


2. To those of you who think that turning from God and living in sin proves you were never saved to begin with (Calvinists), you, at least, believe the Gospel is by faith alone. Your mistake is pneumatological, not soteriological. You think that just because a person gets saved (because God has elected them and therefore will make them persevere) that the Holy Spirit will make sure they never fall away. The theological result, of course, is that believers who have been given faith are also given the grace to submit to Jesus as Lord, turn from their sins . . . in short, all the same things the Arminians say a person has to do. The only difference is that, for you, those things are results of salvation rather than conditions to it.

The practical result, however, is just the same. If a person denies Jesus, they end up in Hell. I'm sure the people in Hell will be very comforted by the thought that at least they didn't lose their salvation. They just never had it to begin with! In any case, where Arminians and Calvinists are in complete agreement is in the necessity of right behavior and belief throughout life to get you to heaven - for Arminians, those things are pre-conditions; for Calvinists, they are necessary results. In either case, NO ONE knows if they are going to heaven or not, because ANY of us could fall away.

And there, again, is another place the Gospel is denied, because if Jesus says whoever believes HAS everlasting life, then to believe is to know that you are saved. Yet if you can't know you are saved, then you can't know you have eternal life, which means you can't say that Jesus is telling the truth. It's all absurd.


Now, obviously, we've had this conversation before. I'm sure we will have it again. It's just heartbreaking to me to see people who genuinely love God turn around and call His Son a liar and then try to justify it. The Jews did the same thing. It's rooted in a basic misconception of the grace of God. God doesn't need or require our good behavior to save us, before OR after salvation, BECAUSE BEHAVIOR, INCLUDING OUR EMOTIONAL STATE TOWARD GOD, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT GOD WILL SAVE US. Until you accept that, you'll never understand the Gospel.

cslewislover wrote:Truthman, quite a few scholars would disagree with you. I think what has been termed "apostasy" is mysterious. However, taken in context, the following verses have been used to show that apostasy is possible: Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26; Peter 1:10, and 1 John 5:16-17. 1 John 2:19 indicates that there are some who seemed to believed, but later showed that they did not. See also 1 John 3:4-9.

Scholars disagree all the time. There are many scholars who agree with me. And, after 40 years of study in college and ministry I am not a scholar? Appealing to scholars is meaningless. I appeal to Scripture and what it says when carefully read in context and compared with other Scripture.
I showed what Hebrews 6:4-6 means in context: why give that as a proof text without even addressing what I said? Why not think about my proofs and discuss them rather than just including a few Scripture references? Why not consider the definition of apostasy and discuss that?

Jac3510 wrote:There's obviously too much for me to reply to line by line here, so forgive me for generalizing your points. It's not hard to do, because the discussion has broken down along the normal Calvinist/Arminian lines:

1. To those who think you can lose your salvation (the Arminians), which includes Gabe and I'm assuming csll and Bav, you simply aren't taking John 3:16 seriously. You deny it in AT LEAST three ways:

a. The verse says everyone who believes WILL NOT PERISH. Yet you believe that some believers will perish.
b. The verse says everyone who believes HAS (present tense, meaning right now) EVERLASTING life. How long does everlasting last? Forever. You either deny that life such life is everlasting and make it temporary (you have it until you sin/stop believing/turn from God/whatever condition you want to add to the Gospel) or deny that we have it NOW, arguing that we WILL HAVE it in heaven. Both deny the verse.
c. The verse says that everyone who BELIEVES. The definition of pisteuo is believing/trusting. Either English word catches a good part of the Greek (and, for what it is worth, the Hebrew word that deals with the same concept in Gen 15:6). The word does NOT mean to repent, to make promise to be good, to turn from sin, to love God, or anything else. The word for repent is repent. The word for love God is love God, etc. You are simply adding to the Gospel.

You can site other verses like Heb 6 all you want. If you are right, at best, you have a contradiction in Scripture .If Heb 6 or 10 teach you can lose your salvation, then they contradict John 3:16. As it stands, they don't, not surprisingly. You confuse rewards in heaven and/or temporal punishment with receiving eternal life or threats of hell. Why? Simple - because both rewards and temporal punishment are based on your behavior here. You don't think that people who are REALLY EVIL could POSSIBLY deserve heaven - you can't stand the idea of such wicked people that openly hate God in heaven, so you relegate them to Hell for their behavior. There, of course, is the utter hypocrisy. None of us deserve heaven. And those of us who follow Jesus with all of are hearts deserve it NO LESS than the most vile atheists on this planet who have ever lived.

I get it. The Gospel offends you. Fine. Not my problem. It's yours, because you are the one who is denying John 3:16. And if you REALLY want other verses, we can point to Gen 15:6, John 5:24; 6:47; 20:31; Acts 16:31, and myriads of others. Not that we should need more than one . . . you don't stack up verses on one side and weigh them against those on the other. But if you really want to play it that way, the Bible, in both testaments, insists that FAITH ALONE saves, and that NOTHING else is necessary.


2. To those of you who think that turning from God and living in sin proves you were never saved to begin with (Calvinists), you, at least, believe the Gospel is by faith alone. Your mistake is pneumatological, not soteriological. You think that just because a person gets saved (because God has elected them and therefore will make them persevere) that the Holy Spirit will make sure they never fall away. The theological result, of course, is that believers who have been given faith are also given the grace to submit to Jesus as Lord, turn from their sins . . . in short, all the same things the Arminians say a person has to do. The only difference is that, for you, those things are results of salvation rather than conditions to it.

The practical result, however, is just the same. If a person denies Jesus, they end up in Hell. I'm sure the people in Hell will be very comforted by the thought that at least they didn't lose their salvation. They just never had it to begin with! In any case, where Arminians and Calvinists are in complete agreement is in the necessity of right behavior and belief throughout life to get you to heaven - for Arminians, those things are pre-conditions; for Calvinists, they are necessary results. In either case, NO ONE knows if they are going to heaven or not, because ANY of us could fall away.

And there, again, is another place the Gospel is denied, because if Jesus says whoever believes HAS everlasting life, then to believe is to know that you are saved. Yet if you can't know you are saved, then you can't know you have eternal life, which means you can't say that Jesus is telling the truth. It's all absurd.


Now, obviously, we've had this conversation before. I'm sure we will have it again. It's just heartbreaking to me to see people who genuinely love God turn around and call His Son a liar and then try to justify it. The Jews did the same thing. It's rooted in a basic misconception of the grace of God. God doesn't need or require our good behavior to save us, before OR after salvation, BECAUSE BEHAVIOR, INCLUDING OUR EMOTIONAL STATE TOWARD GOD, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT GOD WILL SAVE US. Until you accept that, you'll never understand the Gospel.

Jac's entire Scripture = John 3:16 FULL STOP.

It's interesting because even Christ shows that True Faith Works and that one CAN lose his/her salvation.

See the parable of the Talents, Jac. They were all given "FAITH" all were "saved" prior to the Master leaving. What happened to the one given little?

John 3:16 alone is a nutshell.
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Again,

You are applying your theology onto the parables. Assuming that Christ is talking about individual salvation. You are applying your words, 'faith,' and 'saved' to the text, and ignoring the audience it was speaking to.

If the parable of the talents is about your individual salvation, then you have no way of knowing you are saved. Period. A very Jewish parable, spoken to a very Jewish people, about a specific Jewish thing. There are interpretations of this parable, which hold it to be relating to the Jewish people and how they have handled what God has entrusted them with. Maybe you've noticed but God had a very different way of dealing with Israel than He did with the rest of the world. When Jesus was on this earth, He was still dealing with Israel. Matthew is a particularly Jewish book, with the focus of showing Jesus as the Kingly Messiah of Israel.

A man is preparing to leave on a journey. (John 14. "I am going away")

BavarianWheels wrote:Jac's entire Scripture = John 3:16 FULL STOP.

It's interesting because even Christ shows that True Faith Works and that one CAN lose his/her salvation.

See the parable of the Talents, Jac. They were all given "FAITH" all were "saved" prior to the Master leaving. What happened to the one given little?

John 3:16 alone is a nutshell.
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You tell me what happened to him, Bav. I don't see Hell mentioned anywhere in that passage.

And yes, my entire post IS John 3:16, FULL STOP. Or John 6:47. Or John 20:31. Or Gen 15:6. Or Acts 16:31. Or any verse anywhere in all the Bible. No verse can contradict another. The fact that you interpret other verses that don't mention Hell to refer to Hell is your problem. You deny the Gospel. I wish you wouldn't. It breaks my heart. But we've always had men in the church who hate Jesus' words, who hate the idea that salvation REALLY IS by grace and not earned in any way. It's the pride thing . . . ironic that it colors even our view of the Gospel.

This, for all, is why the Gospel is SO HARD to believe. It requires you to put down ALL your defenses, ALL your excuses, ALL your pride. It requires you to look at yourself in exactly the same light that you look at the most vile, evil person on the planet. It requires you to recognize that NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING you can do, no matter HOW GOOD you are, no matter how much you love God, no matter how many promises to Him you make, no matter how dedicated to Him you are, that NONE of that has ANY bearing in God's eyes on your salvation--that's how filthy our own righteousness is. God can't accept that kind of righteousness. The only thing He can accept is the perfect righteousness of His Son. No amount of love for or dedication to Him on our part is enough for that. So He saves us on one thing and one thing alone: our trust. When we add to that, we are no longer trusting Him, because we refuse to recognize just how filthy we really are. Yeah. The Gospel is hard to believe.

jlay wrote:Again,

You are applying your theology onto the parables. Assuming that Christ is talking about individual salvation. You are applying your words, 'faith,' and 'saved' to the text, and ignoring the audience it was speaking to.

If the parable of the talents is about your individual salvation, then you have no way of knowing you are saved. Period. A very Jewish parable, spoken to a very Jewish people, about a specific Jewish thing. There are interpretations of this parable, which hold it to be relating to the Jewish people and how they have handled what God has entrusted them with. Maybe you've noticed but God had a very different way of dealing with Israel than He did with the rest of the world. When Jesus was on this earth, He was still dealing with Israel. Matthew is a particularly Jewish book, with the focus of showing Jesus as the Kingly Messiah of Israel.

A man is preparing to leave on a journey. (John 14. "I am going away")