Evidence for God from Science

zoegirl wrote: In a truly secular society the majority win and get to supplant their morality of the minority and who's to say otherwise?

Yes but it could always be a christian majority that is forcing their view...just look at america.

You are missing my point.

In a society that essentially says: there are no moral absolutes , they must cling to whatever *they* happen to think is right or wrong.

But if they truly lived according to their belief that there are no moral absolutes, then person "A"'s morality of not cheating is equal to person "B"'s morality of cheating whoever can be cheated. The person's belief that killing someone is wrong is equal to the belief that killing someone is okay.

BavarianWheels wrote: Can you, Gman, help what sin has made you? You are the special one that sin hasn't corrupted in any manner?

Everyone sins... The problem here is that you are confusing a spiritual problem with a physical one..

BavarianWheels wrote:I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying homosexuals should be exempt from "their sin" because of genetics. What I am saying is that homosexuality could be genetic and similar to a heterosexual and his/her perverted sexual desires does not make BEING a homosexual any more of a sin.

That really isn't what you said earlier.. You stated that it was something that they couldn't help to do... Also where are you getting genetic heterosexual sins? Where is your proof of this? Also where does it stop? We could then say that about any sin whether it's sexual or non-sexual. Example my daddy stole money and now that is why I steal. How are you going to change thousands of years of genetics? Wishful thinking?

BavarianWheels wrote:Do you get the difference between BEING a homosexual and ACTING out homosexuality? We are all SINNERS and sinful from the moment we are born. It isn't fair we have sin in us and can justly be obliterated by God having sin already. I think homosexuality is a similar struggle through sin. Their sin of homosexual acts is no more a sin than me when I take God's name in vain every single day! Which is worse? I don't condone homosexual acts as acceptable. Homosexual acts are a sin. Full Stop. BEING homosexual isn't more sinful than BEING heterosexual. Both are already IN SIN and in need of a Savior.

Yes we agree that a sin is a sin.. No matter if it is done by a heterosexual or a homosexual.. Nothing new here..

BavarianWheels wrote:It's interesting you'd point to the commandments as pleasing God. -moment to chuckle to self-[/chuckle] I couldn't help but notice that homosexuality is not mentioned in the commandments.

Well that is a bunch of malarkey.. Read Leviticus 18:22

BavarianWheels wrote:There is no word in God's word the BEING homosexual is more sinful than BEING heterosexual. The only word is about homosexual ACTS.

Who ever implied that?

BavarianWheels wrote:You didn't understand the point of the above statement. (probably my inability to convey my thinking) How is it that a sinful being, sinful from conception, finds a Righteous God? Does this sinful, "more perfect" Being find God easier because it is heterosexual? Can a homosexual not find God? If a homosexual finds God and jumps the same hoops into Christianity, (if you will) is their struggle all for naught because they are homosexual? Hetero Christians can struggle with sexual perversion, but homosexuals cannot have sexual struggles because homosexual struggles/sin is "SO" sinful that one cannot be saved having that struggle?

Anyone can find God.. But apparently according to your claims, it seems that homosexuals have a genetic disposition.. Again how is one going to fight against genetics? Why don't we have the gay or heterosexual sin gene removed? Also why didn't Christ suggest that?

Do you think this kind of excuse will hold up in a court of law? Sorry judge, I didn't mean to sin or kill my neighbor.. You see my genetics did it. Nice...

BavarianWheels? Hmmmmmm?

BavarianWheels wrote:Why do you NEED a law prohibiting homosexual unions? It sounds like you think that a State law of the sort would keep your child "safe" from homosexuality. It seems silly to think so because that would in turn make the Almighty God's word only worth something if the State backs Him up...?? Because there is no law enforcing the honor of mother and father. Are you aware of this danger to your child?

Ok, you either ignored what my post said or you misunderstood me. I clearly said is was my responsibility to take care of my kids. And that includes doing my part to insure they have a world to live in that has not completely been flushed down the immoral crapper. I do not want the state to make a law prohibiting homosexual unions. I just don't want them to make a law permitting it, there is a big difference. Without a law (as it is now) people can still engage in homosexual activity and Christians can (out of love) tell them what God says about their sin, just like we tell others to resist sin as we should do ourselves. But what can we say against it, if the state approves of it, what will be the cost? Under law, we will be perceived as prejudice or as someone who slanders them etc. How long will it be before it is illegal for a pastor to turn down a gay couple? And they will put more effort into helping children understand homosexual marriage.

Kids are influenced by their peers and the world around them. I will teach them that homosexual behavior and all sin is wrong but if Christians do not take a stand the world will rebuke our children for their belief. They will feel like they are the ones in the wrong for believing the words of their father, mother and God. And our kids (not my kids) will have fear to standup for God and what is right. Christians morals will be suppressed if we continue to stand by and allow immoral deeds to be glorified. And our kids will pay the price. Homosexuals may feel like suppressed Christian morals is justice for their misunderstood belief that Christians wish to deny them happiness. But it's not, it's only another step the country will take away from God.

There is not a law enforcing the honor of mother and father? Ok, so people don't have to get married. And natural marriage is not a sin.

Men may have dominion over this world but Psalm 24:1 The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein,.

His laws are right and we are landlords here, not owners. I stand on his word...what they believe to be love his nothing more than sin. This is Gods world and I am his servant. Run his world into the immoral crapper?? Not on my watch pal

BavarianWheels wrote:Which school would do that? Prostitution is legal in Nevada...are the schools in Nevada teaching the children it's ok to be a prostitute? Are you not being prejudice in not allowing a gay Christian to minister to the congregation? The fact of the matter is that by definition, you ARE being prejudice whether the State allows you to or not. Who's to say that this gay Christian isn't a "better" Christian than you are? Who's to say he/she is a practicing homosexual or one that must struggle through his/her sin, yet God gets them through? Are you saying that heterosexual desires of perversion are less sinful than those of a homosexual nature?

Which school would do that? Read about it here http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=40339 ...and I assure you that this is only the start. Ok, you do know that prostitution is perceived as a sin? That is the difference here. Homosexuality is being perceived as a third gender with the belief that it's genetic and not a sin. And God is to say that we do not associate with Christians who practice sin, at least in the church. 1 Corinthians 5:11-12

I believe that is so the church represents Gods word so that the unsaved may have an example. If we do what they do then how can we know better than them. How can they trust that God will save them from their sin. As soon as they are delivered I would be more than happy for them to participate. They would be the best at helping others who are practice Homosexuality. And no I am not saying that heterosexual desires of perversion are less sinful. I am saying that heterosexual desires of perversion are the only type of perversions that exists. I am saying that there are no heterosexuals and Homosexuals, Just heterosexuals that can have desires of perversion. Like I said...they are not a third gender.

BavarianWheels wrote:The only pastors that feel a "risk" in teaching truth are pastors that have one foot in being a pastor and the other foot in being a politician. Otherwise there is no "risk".

I assure you that a pastor that discovers a staff member is gay and tells the individual that he or she can no longer minister, refuses to perform marriage ceremonies on the grounds that the couple is gay, teaches against homosexuality on TV, radio and the internet can and will be sued and I am sure could face jail time in the near future. It is already happening, look it up on the internet. And it will continue to grow but as I said we still have to try our best to save them and stop it.

BavarianWheels wrote:What?! You mean I can desire a girl in all ways sexually and that is not a sin? I hope you don't mean what I think you mean.

No, it is not. I mean that a man can be in love with a girl and want her in every way except for lusting after her in his heart in the way the bible describes. But if a man wants more than natural (man type) love from another man then he has sinned in his heart. Otherwise, people would not call themselves gay. They would just be friends who love each other a lot. Therefore, being homosexual is a sin, not just the physical sexual act as you suggest. They are gay because they want more than friendship or love.

BavarianWheels wrote:You were forcibly born into sin. You had no choice in the matter. The moment you were conceived is the moment you were in need of a Savior.

Yes, but it is not something one is forced to do and has no means or reason to change due to the fact (belief) that their sex drive is different than average humans.

BavarianWheels wrote:The problem here is that you and others seem to think my support for homosexual unions is to say that I think homosexuality is ok. I, like you, know homosexuality is wrong...the acts within homosexuality.

Well, you did say a few things that make me believe you feel it is ok. Like you support gay marriage. But I'm starting to think, maybe you don't like losing debates. But my first post was not aimed at you or anyone. I just wanted to share my concerns. And come on??? Trying to debate against Christians concerning homosexuality and being a Christian yourself? There is no way you could come out of this and look good...lol. Well, on with the beating...I'll take it easy only because you mean well. Otherwise, this post would have been an official God endorsed rebuke.

BavarianWheels wrote:You need to go back and read why I stand where I stand on gay marriage. There's another thread of this type somewhere. In a nutshell, there is no law in our secular society against BEING homosexual. Until society deems BEING homosexual is unlawful, then it is my opinion that society should allow for homosexual unions in which homosexual couples are afforded the same rights and perks given to heterosexual marriages. The homosexual community probably doesn't care whether it is called a "marriage" or a "union", but wants equality. I say homosexuality exists. It is not remotely similar to pedophilia. As a society we have made pedophilia illegal (the acts of pedo's) and thus a pedo cannot demand his/her right to practice pedophilia. It's not, take notice, illegal to BE a pedo. It's illegal to act out pedophilic actions. THIS STANCE IN NO MANNER SUGGESTS THAT HOMOSEXUAL ACTS ARE ACCEPTABLE TO GOD SINCE THEY MAY BE GENETIC. Homosexual acts are sinful and detestable to God. No argument there.

Yeah, but you are a Christian.there is a law in the bible against homosexuality. There is no way you as a Christian (and definitely not in front of the unsaved) should support any sin or sinful activity at all. I don't know your story and I am sure you have your reasons but again. You should be 100% on Gods side concerning this matter. The world may not acknowledge any sins but we are suppose to live, support and encourage Gods law. And homosexuality is absolutely similar to pedophilia and bestiality. They are all unnatural affections. And they are all heterosexuals sinning and none of them should be legalized. You keep referring to people who practice homosexuality as if they are a third gender. Does God lie? Will you say that pedophiles can not help themselves because they are forced to think and act as they do with no means or reason to change due to the fact (belief) that their sex drive is different than average humans? And it is illegal to be a pedophile as far as Gods concerned.

If you were unsaved I would not even be talking to you in this manner and your last point (coming from an unsaved person) would be fine with me and respected. But you say you represent our God and then disrespect him in this way in front of those who are unsaved? What example do you set arguing against our Gods word being a Christian on a forum that is made to help the unsaved?

BavarianWheels wrote:How is it that legalization of homosexual unions would "force" sin on you and or your children? I don't promote homosexuality as morally correct at all. Sin is genetic. Does the legalization of alcohol, tobacco, fire arms, force alcoholism on you or your child? Does it force murder? Does it force lung, lip, throat or any tobacco related cancer on you or your child? Do you have a problem with a teacher that smokes teaching your child? Do you have a problem with a teacher that owns a gun teaching your child? What about a teacher that takes God's name in vain? What if one of your child's teachers is a Buddhist and has an idol of Budda in their home and they pray to it daily? Is that a threat to your child? These last two scenarios are clearly against God's law...why are you not persuing to make these acts illegal too?

Read my first five paragraphs again or my first post or both. I think I explained how it will effect me/Christians. Ok, I am sure you know that no one has to allow alcohol, tobacco or fire arms in a church. A pastor can put anyone out of a church that does these things. But again, homosexuals are being perceived as a third gender. That means they have certain rights. All the things you named can be removed from a mans hand but to remove homosexuality (without God) you must remove the whole man. And none of the things you named or the people that use those things can sue a church or have a pastor put in jail because he is perceived as prejudice. Nor do schools support and encourage any of those things. And I can tell my kids not to smoke, drink or use guns but because of the beliefs of this world, soon trying to discourage homosexuality or bring those who practice homosexuality to God will not be done without legal consequences. But one would have no problem from the law if they try to discourage or bring any of the people who do the things you mentioned to God.

And you are still missing the point. I do not care what a teacher does so long as they do not teach my kids that sins are acceptable. They can do whatever they want in their house or at the school so long their sins are not being enforced on my kids. And again…I do not care to make speaking the lords name in vain or worshiping Buddha illegal. I just don't want it to be legal. You don't understand the difference? If these things are legal then they have power and can be enforced. Read the link I gave you or look the matter up yourself.

BavarianWheels wrote:Sounds like you already have the "it's going to happen..." attitude if you're not chasing to make everything God says is wrong illegal in our society. Good Christian moral values? Which utopia are you living in? Where and when has there ever been a society with "good Christian moral values" this side of Eden? Do you trust God? If so, you do your job in training a child and let God do His in keeping His children.

Again with the illegal thing? I think you wish I said that, but I didn't. I said I do not want it legalized. You are just going to have to work with that. And I do what I can to make the world a good place and I believe that starts with bringing people to God so he can change their heart. So the last thing I want is a law that makes it difficult for me to do that with a group of people. And you keep putting words in my mouth. When did I say the world was some kind of Eden or that it was full of good Christian moral values? I specifically said...Before you know it (and we are close) good Christian moral values will be non existent out side our house and walls of the church...Meaning that there will be none. We still have a good number left in America and this country was founded on the bible. I am saying that I wish to persevere what I can and help to make changes for the better. And I trust God just fine. I am not the one believing that things that are against his word is ok. And I will train my kids. You can be sure of that. But that is absolutely no reason to not make an effort to insure they have a good world to live in. If you don't than others will make the world they desire. And if you don't like it but didn't try to stop or add anything than that is on you.

BavarianWheels wrote:Maybe you should let the H.S. do the work He is sent to do. Our job is not to enforce or make laws that enforce God's law(s). Our job is to preach and teach the Good News.

To be frank, I fear more the teaching of Darwinian Evolution to my children than the legalization of gay unions. I believe one can BE gay and still get to heaven, however one cannot be Atheist and get to heaven.

I'm starting to wonder about you...lol You know good and well that God uses us to do his work and the holy ghost is our help. So he sent me to make a change and you and all Christians. I really hope you don't bring that enforce the law thing again. I am not trying to have laws made or enforce Gods laws. I am saying that I do not want sins enforced upon me, my future kids or my Christian beliefs.

Ok, I know Darwinian Evolution (I don't believe all of it). That does not make me Atheist. I am 100% Christian. I just like science and I want to know it to help explain my view to atheist. And many atheist who get saved will know it. Can a Christian that practices homosexuality until they die make it into heaven???

BavarianWheels wrote:Again I ask you; How is this going to affect YOU? Are you afraid of somehow jumping on the gay wagon? You don't have to "accept" gay unions anymore than being forced to accept the taking of God's name in vain all around you! How will this hurt you or your family? Does taking the name of God in vain, being "forced" to accept it since there is no civil law against it, force you into accepting it as morally correct?

(Head slap) Seriously! It is not if there is a law against it! It is the fact that they are making laws to enforce it. I don't personally have to accept anything but by law (already a law in Washington, I live in Maryland) I have to accept gay marriage and other rights against what is perceived as prejudice acts against their sex. Don't you get it?! They have the law to back them up. I say what they do is wrong but the laws says it is right so now I am not trying to save them from their sins, I am slandering or being prejudice. And I still feel I am obligated by Gods law to help them. And also everything else I said in this post concerning the matter.

BavarianWheels wrote:Nor is there any word of God that says BEING homosexual is a sin. It's the ACTS WITHIN HOMOSEXUALITY that are a sin and detestable to God.

And how can you be homosexual and not desire more than love? Men can have natural (man type) love for another man and not be gay, they are just friends. So that means a gay person requires more than love or else there is no reason to be more than friends and call yourself gay. Therefore there heart has sinned and is lusting after a man so being homosexual is a sin.

BavarianWheels wrote:I see no problem with teaching a homosexual that his/her lifestyle in the eyes of God is sinful and detestable. What I see wrong is that a society that will not make homosexuality illegal, says homosexual unions should be illegal.

No one cares to make it illegal because homosexual are adults that willingly wish to engage in homosexual activities. Some people do not want it to be legal for many or more of the reasons I stated in this post. Christians don't have laws that say homosexuals have to accept Christianity. Christians don't want laws that say they have to accept homosexuality.

BavarianWheels wrote:I don't stand up for people. I stand up for what is right. As a Christian, I know what is right and wrong from a Biblical stand point. However this nation is not a theocracy and does not make laws according to religion...YET. So far it is not illegal to be homosexual. As a Christian I don't support "gay activity" or any sin. As a citizen of a republic that does not promote the Christian God above other gods and in fact is doing everything possible to remove God from it, there is no standing on homosexuality without God. All is permissable if we are truely a secular society. All is permissible if all this happened as a result of a cosmic burp. If so, then homosexuality and it's acts cannot be wrong until this secular society makes homosexuality illegal. THEN, AND ONLY THEN, is it correct to stamp out homosexual unions or marriages of the sort.

First, a large portion of our laws comes from the bible, it was founded from the bible. And you did in fact say you support gay marriage and you believe that being homosexual is genetic. So as a Christian you do support gay activity. And this country has always and still promotes Jesus above all other Gods, America is still overwhelmingly Christian. The reason why homosexual marriages are not legal in all states is because we are NOT truly a secular society. Many of us still believe in Christians values and do not intend to just stand idly by and let the country fall into chaos. You say that all is permissible if God does not exist. Well, I say that the idea is not even possible so his law is absolute. Homosexuality is wrong, all sin is wrong and we all need to fight it. I will never accept a sin as a law that I must obey. With your thinking the non-believes have more power than the Christians. Gods will be done, I am his servant and this is our world. If nation wide homosexual marriage becomes a reality then it is in Gods plan, until then we fight it.

BavarianWheels wrote:BEING homosexual isn't more sinful than BEING heterosexual?

(Sigh) BavarianWheels, my friend..I'm afraid you're wrong here. For you see...Out of all the possible combinations of sin both heterosexuals and homosexuals can commit, heterosexuals are genetically and mentally incapable of committing the homosexual sin. So I maintain that the gays can always be more sinful...by one ...I'M JOKING LOL!

But that is your logic, well, at least your logic being used against you.

And I am 100% sure God does not see it that way. I think we all understand each other.

Anyway, I think we all get caught up in defending our points a lot of the time but we also need to be aware that the unsaved are watching/reading. And I don't want anyone misunderstanding me. I in no way support the behavior of Christians who abuse or treat those who engage in homosexuality like they are garbage or less than human. A Christian should never tell anyone that God hates them, that is a HUGE lie. God does not approve of any sin period, and it is for our own good...but I assure you (gays, if that's what you want to call yourself) homosexuality is not even close to being a reason for God to hate you, Jesus forgives all sin no matter how great you think it is. But you need to have a desire to stop even if you don't have the strength to stop.

And for the love of all that is right in the world (gays/everyone)...stop coming out of the closet. Take your sins and cram them in the closet like you have some shame for crying out loud It's nothing to be proud of. Then tell God or someone you trust about it and pray for deliverance, that is what we all should do.

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Can you, Gman, help what sin has made you? You are the special one that sin hasn't corrupted in any manner?

Everyone sins... The problem here is that you are confusing a spiritual problem with a physical one.

We all have both problems. There's no confusion. Homosexual ACTS are sinful. Having homosexual tendencies is no more a sin than having premarital sexual/perverted heterosexual tendencies.

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying homosexuals should be exempt from "their sin" because of genetics. What I am saying is that homosexuality could be genetic and similar to a heterosexual and his/her perverted sexual desires does not make BEING a homosexual any more of a sin.

That really isn't what you said earlier.. You stated that it was something that they couldn't help to do... Also where are you getting genetic heterosexual sins? Where is your proof of this? Also where does it stop? We could then say that about any sin whether it's sexual or non-sexual. Example my daddy stole money and now that is why I steal. How are you going to change thousands of years of genetics? Wishful thinking?

What's the problem here? Can you help being attracted to females? No...that is God's intention. While homosexuality isn't God's intention, it is my belief that sin isn't "blocked by God" so that sin cannot influence genetics. Proof? I don't have any. I don't need any. I'm simply making an argument from what I do know. What I do know is a vast majority of homosexuals feel they are different from an early age. (and vise versa a great many choose the lifestyle, I don't deny that at all.) However there still is no difference in simpy "being" gay and "being" heterosexual. Our STATE in our human bodies this side of salvation is sinful, but our STANDING in Christ is Declared Righteous. That goes for both...assuming of course both are Christians. Can a heterosexual that struggles with sexual perversion be a saved Christian?

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Do you get the difference between BEING a homosexual and ACTING out homosexuality? We are all SINNERS and sinful from the moment we are born. It isn't fair we have sin in us and can justly be obliterated by God having sin already. I think homosexuality is a similar struggle through sin. Their sin of homosexual acts is no more a sin than me when I take God's name in vain every single day! Which is worse? I don't condone homosexual acts as acceptable. Homosexual acts are a sin. Full Stop. BEING homosexual isn't more sinful than BEING heterosexual. Both are already IN SIN and in need of a Savior.

Yes we agree that a sin is a sin.. No matter if it is done by a heterosexual or a homosexual.. Nothing new here.

Good. Then we agree that there is no difference.

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:It's interesting you'd point to the commandments as pleasing God. -moment to chuckle to self-[/chuckle] I couldn't help but notice that homosexuality is not mentioned in the commandments.

Well that is a bunch of malarkey.. Read Leviticus 18:22

A bunch of malarkey? Is that what you're going to go to? Ok.

Anyway, please notice that the abomination is the act and not the person. There is no (more) sin in being a homosexual, simply a different and/or more hurdles to need Christ to get through. It does not say, "One shall not have tendencies to lie with a man as he does a woman..."

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:There is no word in God's word the BEING homosexual is more sinful than BEING heterosexual. The only word is about homosexual ACTS.

Who ever implied that?

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the whole point of the debate here? If you agree, then why are we going through all this?

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:You didn't understand the point of the above statement. (probably my inability to convey my thinking) How is it that a sinful being, sinful from conception, finds a Righteous God? Does this sinful, "more perfect" Being find God easier because it is heterosexual? Can a homosexual not find God? If a homosexual finds God and jumps the same hoops into Christianity, (if you will) is their struggle all for naught because they are homosexual? Hetero Christians can struggle with sexual perversion, but homosexuals cannot have sexual struggles because homosexual struggles/sin is "SO" sinful that one cannot be saved having that struggle?

Anyone can find God.. But apparently according to your claims, it seems that homosexuals have a genetic disposition.. Again how is one going to fight against genetics? Why don't we have the gay or heterosexual sin gene removed? Also why didn't Christ suggest that?

Why didn't He suggest we simply remove the sin gene?

Gman wrote:Do you think this kind of excuse will hold up in a court of law? Sorry judge, I didn't mean to sin or kill my neighbor.. You see my genetics did it. Nice...

Oh see how you don't understand the point? In a court, no one is convicted for simply BEING a murderer. No one is convicted of BEING a thief. Likewise there is no human civil law nor a law of God against BEING homosexual. The laws that exist are laws against committing murder, and stealing. How does one become a murderer, a thief, a homosexual? By the ACTS. Once the act is done, is there forgiveness for that act? Yet the sinner remains a murderer, a thief, or a homosexual. There is no "extra" sin in BEING labeled as such.
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J.Davis wrote:I just don't want it to be legal. You don't understand the difference?

You don't want what legal?

News Flash: Homosexuality is legal! There is no law that I know of (other than in Muslim countries I suppose) that makes BEING homosexual illegal.

J.Davis wrote:And it is illegal to be a pedophile as far as Gods concerned.

Wrong. What a pedophile DOES is illegal. The pedophile is firstly a sinner and prior to any pedophilic acts, without Christ is separated from God already.

J.Davis wrote:There is no way you as a Christian (and definitely not in front of the unsaved) should support any sin or sinful activity at all.

I don't support homosexual acts. I just don't think BEING homosexual is any MORE sinful than BEING a hetero pervert. As a Christian, I would agree, the acts of homosexuality are wrong and homosexuals should cease these acts. However as a citizen of a country that hasn't made homosexuality illegal, (setting my Christian beliefs aside in STATE matters) there should be no reason to block gay unions. Until there is a law to vote on suggesting homosexuality be made illegal, I cannot vote against gay unions. Why? Because this is a nation that is not a theocracy. If it were, we wouldn't be having this problem/debate. Homosexuality would already be illegal and therefore the notion of gay unions would be MOOT.

J.Davis wrote:Well, you did say a few things that make me believe you feel it is ok. Like you support gay marriage.

In this secular society, in regard to laws, I do. As a personal Christian belief, I don't.

J.Davis wrote:Therefore, being homosexual is a sin

Again. NO! The homosexual is already a SINNER. You can't make someone an "expert" sinner and another a "novice" sinner. All are sinners. The sin is the act of ENGAGING IN homosexual acts.

J.Davis wrote:Like I said…they are not a third gender.

Agreed. I never said they were. I am suggesting sin may have genetically twisted their attractions.

J.Davis wrote:I am saying that I do not want sins enforced upon me, my future kids or my Christian beliefs.

And once again...NEWS FLASH: Homosexuality is NOT ILLEGAL. Why are you not promoting a law to make it illegal simply to BE homosexual?

J.Davis wrote:Ok, I know Darwinian Evolution (I don't believe all of it). That does not make me Atheist.

Not what I meant. I simply meant there's more danger in allowing the teaching of D.E. to kids which could have an influence on their religious beliefs or lack thereof. Homosexuality has been around since almost the beginning. While some do, there's not very many that simply just make a full turn into homosexuality just for the fun of it.

J.Davis wrote:Christians don't want laws that say they have to accept homosexuality.

NEWS FLASH: Homosexuality is not illegal. You're already "accepting" it! If you didn't accept it, you'd move to where the laws fit in with your religious beliefs.

J.Davis wrote:Can a Christian that practices homosexuality until they die make it into heaven…???

First of all, define "practices".

Here's my definition: As a Christian we constantly fall into our preferred sins. (hopefully less and less as time goes by) It is by God's grace that He works with us. We will always sin and we may fall a few times or many times into our dark secret sins. God knows the intent of the heart. We don't know the day or hour of our death. If a Christian that has problems with sexual perversion (homo or hetero) accepts Christ today and falls into this tomorrow, repents the same day and dies that same evening, did he/she practice sexual perversion all his/her life?

As I asked Gman; Can a heterosexual Christian with perverted sexual tendencies be saved? Answer this...and you have your answer for your question above.

My answer is , YES!
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We have a far larger problem with heterosexual sin in this country than with homosexual sin.

Wheels makes some great points, and you guys just refuse to accept reality. When you see something beautiful, do you have to stop, and think, "Do I really think this is beautiful?" No, you simply recoginze it as such. You don't have to convince yourself that you like ice cream. There was never a time in my life where I had to ask myself, "do I like men or women." If you did, then I'd sure like to hear about it. I was always attracted to the opposite sex. There was never any decision. I WAS attracted to women, end of story.
If someone has the inclination to be attracted to the same sex, this is not a sin. I would say it is unnatural. And acting on this desire in word, thought or deed is sin. Acting on our desires is where we sin. And no, that doesn't have to be physical. If someone feeds their tendency through perverted thoughts of lust, fantasising, etc., then they are sinning just the same.

What's the problem here? Can you help being attracted to females? No...that is God's intention.

True wheels. But, we can help how we repsond to that attraction. What you feed grows, and what you starve dies.

Most homosexuals feel different at an early age because most damage is done at an early age. Is Homosexuality genetic? I don't know. In many cases, I would say, no. Why? Because I have been able to talk with many gays about their lifestyle, and all but one confessed to traumatic sexual abuse, or a serious fractured relationship with their father.

jlay wrote:

What's the problem here? Can you help being attracted to females? No...that is God's intention.

True wheels. But, we can help how we repsond to that attraction. What you feed grows, and what you starve dies.

I agree with what you're saying, however we have to acknowledge what Paul also says... Romans 7:19 We are still sinner and will fall.
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BavarianWheels wrote:You don't want what legal?

News Flash: Homosexuality is legal! There is no law that I know of (other than in Muslim countries I suppose) that makes BEING homosexual illegal.

News Flash: I know that…Homosexuality is legal but does not have laws (well they do in some states) to protect or enforce homosexual equality. I know you understand me….It may sound like it is fair to many in America and right to let them have equality in all things. But the problem is that it interferes with religious freedom (Christianity). Pastors are getting sued for preaching against Homosexuality, they are getting sued for not performing gay marriage ceremonies, they are getting sued for expelling gay staff members, Homosexuality is being taught in some schools and may spread to others and all of this is because homosexuals are seen as being an ethnic group and not as sinners like all the rest of us. God works through his people and it is our job to bring the unsaved to Jesus. Homosexuals are making it more and more difficult to reach them as the nation will perceive an act of love and compassion as a crime. I pray they never get what they ask for concerning this.

J.Davis wrote:Therefore, being homosexual is a sin

BavarianWheels wrote:Wrong. What a pedophile DOES is illegal. The pedophile is firstly a sinner and prior to any pedophilic acts, without Christ is separated from God already.

Again. NO! The homosexual is already a SINNER. You can't make someone an "expert" sinner and another a "novice" sinner. All are sinners. The sin is the act of ENGAGING IN homosexual acts

Again. NO! The homosexual is already a SINNER. You can't make someone an "expert" sinner and another a "novice" sinner. All are sinners. The sin is the act of ENGAGING IN homosexual acts.

Ok, let me try to explain this better. This is for all replies concerning this.

First, I only said it because you said that: “simply being homosexual is not a sin.” I believe as you do, we are all already sinners. But you seem to be disregarding the fact that there is no such thing as homosexuals, only heterosexuals that perform sexually immoral acts. There is absolutely no mention in the bible that people are born homosexual. It just says that, and I quote: and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another Romans 1:27. And all the scriptures concerning this matter say the same. Nothing at all about a genetic defect, just men and women giving up what was natural.

So what I am saying is that if people call themselves gay then an action has been performed either physically or in their heart that no longer makes them believe that they are heterosexuals, they gave into their weakness. Simply having love for the same sex is not the action. Because heterosexuals can have love for the same sex and not be gay. My point is that they would not call themselves gay if they did not engage in homosexual activities or at least have the intent to carry out homosexual activities. And it's the same for pedophiles. If they have the intention to perform sexual act's with children and do it in their heart then they have sinned. If a man confesses that he is an adulterer should I believe he has never committed adultery, neither in his heart or physically? Gay people say they are sin not me…

But I agree with the logic that a heterosexual that feels unnatural affection/desire but has no intention to engage in homosexual acts (does not call themselves gay/is still fighting) is not committing a homosexual sin.

BavarianWheels wrote:I just don't think BEING homosexual is any MORE sinful than BEING a hetero pervert.

Well, by your logic homosexuals will always have the homosexual sin plus all the sins heterosexuals can commit. So you must either conclude that homosexuals will always be technically more sinful or conclude that there is no such thing as a homosexual person, just heterosexuals sinning. That last post of mine was a joke but you would still have to explain this using your logic.

BavarianWheels wrote:However as a citizen of a country that hasn't made homosexuality illegal, (setting my Christian beliefs aside in STATE matters) there should be no reason to block gay unions.

You just abandon one belief for the other and stand of neither. You say there is no state law and refuse to speak on Gods behalf, again…you stand for neither. In a state with no law concerning this matter, each individual has the power to stand up for what they believe in. I will speak on Gods behalf and encourage all who call Jesus lord to do the same. But all you are really saying here is that you will stand for nothing, well, at least concerning this matter. God say's that we are to follow the law of the land. But in a state with no law there is no reason you should not push his law. Your picture says you live in California. Christians shutdown the Gay rights attempt there so that is your proof that we are not a fully secular country, our voice matters and we have a right to stand up for what we believe in. God does not accept lukewarm…Stand on his word. Those who practice homosexuality, desire what they believe is equality but it will only bring more harm to themselves and others.

God does not lie….

BavarianWheels wrote: What's the problem here? Can you help being attracted to females? No...that is God's intention. While homosexuality isn't God's intention, it is my belief that sin isn't "blocked by God" so that sin cannot influence genetics. Proof? I don't have any. I don't need any. I'm simply making an argument from what I do know. What I do know is a vast majority of homosexuals feel they are different from an early age. (and vise versa a great many choose the lifestyle, I don't deny that at all.) However there still is no difference in simpy "being" gay and "being" heterosexual.

Then explain how many homosexuals were able to change their homosexual desires..

http://www.exodusinternational.org/stories

BavarianWheels wrote:Our STATE in our human bodies this side of salvation is sinful, but our STANDING in Christ is Declared Righteous. That goes for both...assuming of course both are Christians. Can a heterosexual that struggles with sexual perversion be a saved Christian?

Be careful.. What does 1 Corinthians 6:9 say?

BavarianWheels wrote:Anyway, please notice that the abomination is the act and not the person. There is no (more) sin in being a homosexual, simply a different and/or more hurdles to need Christ to get through. It does not say, "One shall not have tendencies to lie with a man as he does a woman..."

Yes they are different hurdles... But according to you they are genetic, so they can't be changed..

BavarianWheels wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the whole point of the debate here? If you agree, then why are we going through all this?

It seems that you believe that genetics is the key here or crutch.. That is where we disagree..

BavarianWheels wrote:Why didn't He suggest we simply remove the sin gene?

What sin gene are you referring to? There isn't any..

BavarianWheels wrote:Oh see how you don't understand the point? In a court, no one is convicted for simply BEING a murderer. No one is convicted of BEING a thief. Likewise there is no human civil law nor a law of God against BEING homosexual. The laws that exist are laws against committing murder, and stealing. How does one become a murderer, a thief, a homosexual? By the ACTS. Once the act is done, is there forgiveness for that act? Yet the sinner remains a murderer, a thief, or a homosexual. There is no "extra" sin in BEING labeled as such.
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Yes there is forgiveness for that act... Even a murderer.. But according to the message of Christ, our sins are washed away.. 1 Corinthians 6:11 But what you are saying is that they can't. Why? It's genetic..

What sin gene are you referring to? There isn't any..

There are many gene's that effect brain chemistry, but it would take a major effort to identify them all and correctly change them to improve an organism's behaivour, basically saying that we do not really have a MAJOR clue in what we are messing with here. It is playing with fire and people will get burnt, but if it is done with good intentions then the whole outcome of genetic engineering projects can be positive, the only danger is a danger to genetic diversity if we create a "perfect" monoculture then other plants will basically be destroyed.

So yes, In away there are "Genes" for sin, or atleast for the behaivour that lets people be tempted and to do the tempting. With "fixed" versions you could pretty much create perfectly innocent people who would have a hard time doing wrong (and anything else for that matter)

[quoteBe careful.. What does 1 Corinthians 6:9 say?][/quote]
What it doesn't do is single out homsexuality. It lumps it in with the other sins. Sins that you and I are guilty of. Unless you are stating that you have never lusted, and thus committed adultery in your heart according to Matthew 5.

Then explain how many homosexuals were able to change their homosexual desires

Matthew 19:26

It seems that you believe that genetics is the key here or crutch.. That is where we disagree..

I am undecided in this matter. I know there are people who are genetically disposed to illness, addiction, etc. So, I wouldn't rule out that someone could have inate desires that are contrary to nature. This doesn't excuse the drunk driver, nor should it excuse the homosexual. I can assure you I had a lot of desires as a teen. Did I act on all of them? No. Is a 'desire' a free ticket to act on it? Heavens no. That is one of the very things that seperates us from the other creatures. We process our desires through our conscience.

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Why didn't He suggest we simply remove the sin gene?

What sin gene are you referring to? There isn't any..

Do we really need to go back to basics of Christianity and explain why sin is in everyone?
It's the "gene" that Adam and Eve passed on to their offspring.
It's that thing that makes sure each and every person after Adam and Eve is sinful from conception...

"Are we clear?"

"Yes."

"Are we clear!"

"Crystal."

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Oh see how you don't understand the point? In a court, no one is convicted for simply BEING a murderer. No one is convicted of BEING a thief. Likewise there is no human civil law nor a law of God against BEING homosexual. The laws that exist are laws against committing murder, and stealing. How does one become a murderer, a thief, a homosexual? By the ACTS. Once the act is done, is there forgiveness for that act? Yet the sinner remains a murderer, a thief, or a homosexual. There is no "extra" sin in BEING labeled as such.

Yes there is forgiveness for that act... Even a murderer.. But according to the message of Christ, our sins are washed away.. 1 Corinthians 6:11 But what you are saying is that they can't. Why? It's genetic..

No! The point is not that homosexuals are "excused" from the sin of homosexual acts at all. The point is that homosexual acts are sin LIKE ANY OTHER SIN. There is nothing that makes homosexual sins WORSE than heterosexual perversity! There is no more "sin" in BEING homosexual, that is, BEING homosexual doesn't make a person a worse sinner! It's the ACTS, not his/her STATE OF BEING that is "more" detestable to God. We ALL are already detestable equally in God's sight.

Once again answer the question;

Can a heterosexual Christian with sexual perversion tendencies/issues/problems truly be a Christian and thus be saved?
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J.Davis wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:You don't want what legal?
News Flash: Homosexuality is legal! There is no law that I know of (other than in Muslim countries I suppose) that makes BEING homosexual illegal

News Flash: I know that…Homosexuality is legal but does not have laws (well they do in some states) to protect or enforce homosexual equality. I know you understand me….It may sound like it is fair to many in America and right to let them have equality in all things. But the problem is that it interferes with religious freedom (Christianity).

J.Davis wrote:Pastors are getting sued for preaching against Homosexuality, they are getting sued for not performing gay marriage ceremonies, they are getting sued for expelling gay staff members

Really? Preaching against homosexuality is a Given considering the Christian doctrine. Any pastor that doesn't isn't much of a pastor. I've heard it preached several times in my own church since I was a kid and probably within the last 6 months. I don't see anyone knocking on the doors of my pastor looking to force him to change this.

J.Davis wrote:Homosexuality is being taught in some schools and may spread to others and all of this is because homosexuals are seen as being an ethnic group and not as sinners like all the rest of us. God works through his people and it is our job to bring the unsaved to Jesus. Homosexuals are making it more and more difficult to reach them as the nation will perceive an act of love and compassion as a crime. I pray they never get what they ask for concerning this.

How is homosexuality being "taught"?? Are you serious? You can't "teach" someone to be homosexual. The most you can "teach" is to treat everyone with respect, including the homosexual...in both civil and religious respects.

J.Davis wrote:First, I only said it because you said that: “simply being homosexual is not a sin.” I believe as you do, we are all already sinners. But you seem to be disregarding the fact that there is no such thing as homosexuals, only heterosexuals that perform sexually immoral acts. There is absolutely no mention in the bible that people are born homosexual. It just says that, and I quote: and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another Romans 1:27. And all the scriptures concerning this matter say the same. Nothing at all about a genetic defect, just men and women giving up what was natural.

So what I am saying is that if people call themselves gay then an action has been performed either physically or in their heart that no longer makes them believe that they are heterosexuals, they gave into their weakness. Simply having love for the same sex is not the action. Because heterosexuals can have love for the same sex and not be gay. My point is that they would not call themselves gay if they did not engage in homosexual activities or at least have the intent to carry out homosexual activities. And it's the same for pedophiles. If they have the intention to perform sexual act's with children and do it in their heart then they have sinned. If a man confesses that he is an adulterer should I believe he has never committed adultery, neither in his heart or physically?

This is silly. Your reasoning here goes the same for plain sin handed down from Adam. To confess one is a sinner is to have sinned. What is the difference? To confess one is homosexual is to either, 1. Know it in your heart where your attractions are at an early age, or 2. experienced physical homosexuality and felt it as YOUR OWN "natural attraction."

J.Davis wrote:But you seem to be disregarding the fact that there is no such thing as homosexuals, only heterosexuals that perform sexually immoral acts.

What? I denied the existence of homosexuals? Where did I say there are no homosexuals, but heterosexuals performing sexually immoral acts? You're adding your own editorial here.

J.Davis wrote:Gay people say they are sin not me…

What? I'm confused as to what this is about.

J.Davis wrote:But I agree with the logic that a heterosexual that feels unnatural affection/desire but has no intention to engage in homosexual acts (does not call themselves gay/is still fighting) is not committing a homosexual sin.

This is also pretty screwy. I don't see any form of logic in the order of these words. Maybe a rephrase is in order for me.

J.Davis wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:I just don't think BEING homosexual is any MORE sinful than BEING a hetero pervert.

Well, by your logic homosexuals will always have the homosexual sin plus all the sins heterosexuals can commit. So you must either conclude that homosexuals will always be technically more sinful or conclude that there is no such thing as a homosexual person, just heterosexuals sinning.

Again, this is very confusing. Homosexuals will always have homosexual sin Plus...??

J.Davis wrote:That last post of mine was a joke but you would still have to explain this using your logic.

Maybe you should stop joking in the middle of points. I can't tell where your seriousness ends and your jokes begin.

J.Davis wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:However as a citizen of a country that hasn't made homosexuality illegal, (setting my Christian beliefs aside in STATE matters) there should be no reason to block gay unions.

You just abandon one belief for the other and stand of neither. You say there is no state law and refuse to speak on Gods behalf, again…you stand for neither. In a state with no law concerning this matter, each individual has the power to stand up for what they believe in. I will speak on Gods behalf and encourage all who call Jesus lord to do the same. But all you are really saying here is that you will stand for nothing, well, at least concerning this matter. God say's that we are to follow the law of the land. But in a state with no law there is no reason you should not push his law. Your picture says you live in California. Christians shutdown the Gay rights attempt there so that is your proof that we are not a fully secular country, our voice matters and we have a right to stand up for what we believe in. God does not accept lukewarm…Stand on his word. Those who practice homosexuality, desire what they believe is equality but it will only bring more harm to themselves and others.

God does not lie….

I stand on God's side...fully. Homosexual acts are an abomination. A homosexual as a person (aside from their "natural" sexual acts) is no more sinful or detestable to God than a heterosexual with HETEROSEXUALLY perverse tendencies/issues. Is that more clear?

I stand with God and believe as He says. He says to render to Caesar what is Caesar's...for now Caesar says homosexuality is legal and on the subject of support or not of gay unions, I support them as it is the logical conclusion in this "unGodly" country.

As a Christian it is my stance that homosexuals can and will be saved despite their "natural attractions". God can work their hearts to what He wants if they are whole-heartedly asking Him to. If it be they have a miraculous change in attraction, so be it. If it be that their life is a struggle back and forth, a fight emotionall and physically with what they feel is "natural" and what God says to keep from, who am I to judge how God deems fit to work their lives to His glory in the end? We all have our "homosexual" sin that we keep going back to. There is no difference.
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