Being saved from what? For what?

[B. W.]

FYI...

Whoops - posted a quote from wrong person in above post so re-edited post... as I needed to add a bit more on it as well too...

Sorry about that...
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[jlay]

And is that not what the Bible teaches?

"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever"

The context of Rev. 14 says more than what you are stating here. It has a lot of symbolic language, and refers to a specific people at a specific time. FWIW, i believe Hell is real, it will be absolutely miserable, and for good reason. Kris, has demonstrated some very distorted and prejudiced views

Hell is not going to make sense to such a person, anymore than saying God loves you and wants to have a relationship.

Smiley, FWIW, I think you bring some very good points of challenge, and questions that Christians ought to be able to give an answer to.

[DannyM]

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From our own folly?
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[sinnerbybirth]

So everyone, take a deep breath so that the coolness of God's Spirit prevails.

Well said B.W.

[smiley]

Whether you ultimately have some anti-Christian agenda remains to be seen.

I don't. Look at some of my earlier posts, and you will see that I am definitely a Christian (for example, the "Is confession necessary for forgiveness of sins" thread I'd started a few months ago).

It usually becomes quite obvious over time, so you have nothing to fear if you truly are a Christian. And it is far better a person is just honest. We don't stop people posting just for being non-Christian, but more rather if we believe they have an anti-Christian agenda.

This was my first experience and I felt your words betrayed your profile. Whether this board is for posters like yourself is a hard task moderators are forced to decide on. We don't go by what people assume in their profiles, but have to make determinations based on the substance of posts.

And what did I do that is contrary to the board's purposes? Is calling out Christians on their dishonesty (I'm not talking about you here) not in accordance with what is acceptable on the forum? If that's the case, then yes, I agree that I (or anyone else for that matter) should not be posting here.

I am sorry, I get absolutely frustrated when I see comments like the one from zoegirl, that Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Mormons, people who have never heard of Jesus Christ, and so on, all "get what they want" by being tormented in the Lake of Fire for the whole eternity. What if, for example, Islam or Mormonism turned out to be right, and you were thrown into Hell when you died. Would that mean that you "got what you wanted"? No, in my opinion, that can quite legitimately be described as a horrid and evil pile of nonsense. And I don't see why I should hesitate to call it exactly that.

[smiley]

To illustrate further what I mean by "dishonesty of Christians", see an argument made by Rich Deem on the main site:

"In addition, there are missionaries throughout the world proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ and the salvation that He offers as a free gift. Although the gift is "free," it will cost you your sin, selfishness, and pride. Since none of these character traits are allowed into heaven, those who insist upon holding onto these traits cannot enter into heaven, but must be separated from God in a place called hell. Therefore, those who go to hell do so voluntarily, preferring hell to complete submission to a holy and just God."

So according to Rich, all non-Christians are selfish, proud, and choose Hell voluntarily.

Now that's quite fantastic. If anyone really believes that, then either they 1) are utterly and completely lying and mentally dishonest with themselves 2) have not thought the issue through very well

The problems of Hell and Christian particularism are much more severe than the average Christian would like to think. To say that non-Christians all actually know that Christianity is true but choose freely to go to Hell is complete nonsense with no connection to reality.

[sinnerbybirth]

To illustrate further what I mean by "dishonesty of Christians", see an argument made by Rich Deem on the main site:

"In addition, there are missionaries throughout the world proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ and the salvation that He offers as a free gift. Although the gift is "free," it will cost you your sin, selfishness, and pride. Since none of these character traits are allowed into heaven, those who insist upon holding onto these traits cannot enter into heaven, but must be separated from God in a place called hell. Therefore, those who go to hell do so voluntarily, preferring hell to complete submission to a holy and just God."

So according to Rich, all non-Christians are selfish, proud, and choose Hell voluntarily.

Hey Smiley, IMHO, I think what Rich is saying (he can correct me if I am wrong) is, IF you continue to practice these things such as, sin , selfishness, and pride after coming to Christ. You will not inherit the kingdom of GOD. See Galatians 5:16-24. Sorry to put in my two cents, considering no one has asked for it.

Like I said, just my opinion.

GOD Bless smiley

[smiley]

No. He is saying that you need to abandon selfishness and pride to accept Jesus' gift (which is why he says abandoning these things is a "cost" of accepting the gift of Jesus Christ). Therefore, all those who don't accept Jesus' gift (i.e. non-Christians) do so because of selfishness and pride. And my main point concerns the "they choose to go to Hell freely" nonsense--that is all too common among Christian apologists.

Further, look at the passage before that:

"All the people who end up going to hell will have done so because they actually prefer hell to being forced into the presence of God for all eternity. People like to live in their favorite sins and answer to no one else. They know that if they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior that God will want them to change their lives and they might have to give up some of their autonomy."

From this, it is especially obvious that he is advocating the position that all non-Christians deny Jesus because they do not want to give up sinning (in other words, for selfish reasons). So all those Muslims and Hindus who spent their entire lives praying and begging their "gods" for forgiveness actually chose not to be Christians because they're proud and selfish.

[sinnerbybirth]

Hmmm. Sorry to interrupt. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

[jlay]

The problems of Hell and Christian particularism are much more severe than the average Christian would like to think. To say that non-Christians all actually know that Christianity is true but choose freely to go to Hell is complete nonsense with no connection to reality.

I agree that is a darn good point. But are you just going to point out these things, or are you going to offer any alternative? If you are a Christian, then surely you have a position that you could share and scripturaly defend. Not saying that sarcastically. I'm sincere.


The book of Romans teaches.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20

Personally I find a few of Rich's answers lacking and not identifying with my theology. I don't agree with Rich's explanation that you sited here.

[zoegirl]

To illustrate further what I mean by "dishonesty of Christians", see an argument made by Rich Deem on the main site:

"In addition, there are missionaries throughout the world proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ and the salvation that He offers as a free gift. Although the gift is "free," it will cost you your sin, selfishness, and pride. Since none of these character traits are allowed into heaven, those who insist upon holding onto these traits cannot enter into heaven, but must be separated from God in a place called hell. Therefore, those who go to hell do so voluntarily, preferring hell to complete submission to a holy and just God."

So according to Rich, all non-Christians are selfish, proud, and choose Hell voluntarily.

I think you are really misapplying his words.

Now that's quite fantastic. If anyone really believes that, then either they 1) are utterly and completely lying and mentally dishonest with themselves 2) have not thought the issue through very well

The problems of Hell and Christian particularism are much more severe than the average Christian would like to think. To say that non-Christians all actually know that Christianity is true but choose freely to go to Hell is complete nonsense with no connection to reality.

SMiley,

Let's break this down into some separate issues.

It seems we have several issues:

ALL have sinned and ALL deserve the wrath of God. All of humanity struggles with pride, deceit, selfishness....even Christians. But Christians have the relationship with Christ sanctifying them. You cannot deny that every person in humanity struggles with this. We could debate the amount and severity of the deceit, lies, or selfishness, but all struggle. ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If you don't agree with this you are in contradiction with a pretty basic foundation of scripture.

Those that have heard specifically about Jesus Christ: Would you deny that those who have heard about the Gospel and refuse to accept it choose the alternative voluntarily? We have certainly seen many atheists come here and rabidly deny the Gospel. Even agnostics have chosen to not investigate or choose to shrug their shoulders about the decision. It states in ROmans that all are without excuse and have seen evidence. For those with the resources to explore this in the advanced countries, there is certainly no excuse. Radio stations, churches, websites....in all of the advanced countries, there is plenty of evidence and general calling to Christ.

THen we come to those who have not heard. ROmans certainly points to the general revelation seen in creation and in the hearts of Men, but that doesn't answer clearly whether they are under the same lens as those who have had more specific revelation. Certainly there are societies who have not heard of Christ specifically yet know that there is a creator and that there is evil. What God uses to judge their hearts is certainly something we can debate. So it seems that this is the only actual debatable point we have here. NObody disputes that ALL people are sinful.

Then we have the groups that you mentioned, the hindus and Muslims and others. I'm sorry, but while they are sincere in their beliefs, they reject the way to salvation. Their religions either reject the sinfulness of mankind (by implying that they can reach a state of perfection over years of reincarnation) or reject the way to be saved (that they can be saved through actions that they do, such as praying a certain number of times a day). In this respect they also reject the NEED for a savior. They may be asking for forgiveness, but their way to heaven implies that THEY can get there by becoming righteous in actions. By praying certain times, or a certain number, or by going somewhere, or by doing a certain number of charitable acts.