Evidence for God from Science

documentary called "Religulous" made in 2008 by "Thousand Words" and published by Lionsgate. It was a clip where Bill Maher interviews Francis Collins.

Oh you make me laugh...you are reprimanding us for not thinking critically and then use Bill Maher as some sort of unbiased source?

Tell me....how many good apologetic books have you actually read? Have you critically examined the Bible using any resource other than those that support your view? I would be willing to bet that you haven't, but I will gladly be proven wrong. So how many books written by Christians have you actually read?

There's plenty of evidence to believe in the Christian faith, good historical evidence

Please have a look at:
http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Referen ... ers%29.htm

Please be specific (as I have been asked to be), "plenty of evidence" please name one piece of evidence that doesn't involve ancient scripture or folklore.

Gee, what a surprise, you decline to answer,...

Nope, I asked first. *You* came here...what books have you read by CHristian authors? Or have you only read what supports your view...??

Shoot I'll give you a list as an example...

Any book by Ravi Zacharias
Any book by C.S. Lewis
Any book by Lee Stroebel...
Josh McDowell...
John Piper...

Any others? Simple question...Anyone who boasts that he thinks critically should be able to provide a list of those authors in support of as well as against.

Realist wrote:

There's plenty of evidence to believe in the Christian faith, good historical evidence

Please have a look at:
http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Referen ... ers%29.htm

Please be specific (as I have been asked to be), "plenty of evidence" please name one piece of evidence that doesn't involve ancient scripture or folklore.

The NT documents are more close to their source, by FAR, than any other ancient documents we use for historical or literary purposes. There is plenty of evidence, yes, based on how legends develop (the NT documents represent far too short a time span) and other things. It could take a lot to post, and I could provide good links, but I don't know that you'd really care about them. Do you mean you want a current sign???

I may have trouble taking someone who cites the awful and intellectually dishonest "documentary" Religulous very seriously.

You say this-

Realist wrote:cslewislover
I checked the source of my 5% theory. The quote is as follows:-

"93% of scientists in the American National Academy of Sciences are atheist or agnostic"

So I wasn't far off.

... and you say this-

Realist wrote: I thought it was interesting how you claim to be a critical thinker, and question why you believe. How can you not come to the conclusion that it is an accident of birth that you are a Christian and not a Muslim or Hindu or any one of the thousands of religions that have been concocted by the human mind throughout history. Unless you spent many years researching ALL the possible religions - how can you be sure that you have the right one?

If you can ignore whatever research and critical thinking a Christian put into their religious position and call it "an accident of birth", then you can do the same thing for the "93% of scientists in the American National Academy of Sciences" who are atheist or agnostic. Let's try to be intellectually honest, ok?

I've heard that figure quoted over and over again by atheists, but it really doesn't bother me much because there's so much more to it than a simple statistic. Even if it were true, there are so many factors that go into it, I don't see the point of bringing it up other than to say "Haha! Smart people don't believe in God, so I don't have to try to prove anything to you!" And then there's the simple mistake of confusing correlation with causation... if a higher percentage of scientists are atheists, that doesn't prove that it's because of some special insight that they have. Another statistic I saw (not sure if it's true as I don't have the source, but it wouldn't surprise me), is that only 6% of scientists are Republicans. Again, I think there's a number of factors that have influenced the final statistic, just like those numbers on religion. I'm 100% convinced that being a democrat isn't more "scientific" than being a Republican, so imo it just goes to show you that these stats are... pointless. All it serves to do is to try to make someone feel stupid without having to prove anything, which is something that some atheists have become very good at. In fact, that accounts for about 90% of my experience with atheists on the internet, not actual reason or facts, but ad hominem attacks and a few misconstrued stats thrown in there to "prove" that all Christians are ignorant murderers or something.

And all of this is assuming those statistics are accurate... I'm not sure if they are as far as the National Academy of Sciences go, but several surveys of scientists in general show that the number of religious scientists is much higher than that. Some of those statistics are on this website.

Finally, on the "how do you know which religion is right" question. It is true that a lot of people only believe what they're brought up to believe, but the same thing applies to atheists and agnostics, and it doesn't mean that a person can't objectively research the evidence available. Also, many feel that they have positive evidence for the truth of Christianity. If you believe that there is good evidence that Christ rose from the grave and that other things reported by the Bible really happened (there is, by the way, try searching the site for some pretty good arguments), then that means that other religions aren't true. I still spend the time researching other religions (not as much as I used to), but I also believe there's positive proof for Christianity.

Edit- If you want evidence, read the site, there are multiple articles that fit that description. Coming barging in here demanding evidence won't do. For a "critical thinker" like yourself, you apparently haven't read the guidelines for the forum or read anything on the site, and I doubt you've touched any modern Christian literature or philosophers.

zoegirl wrote:Gee, what a surprise, you decline to answer,...

Nope, I asked first. *You* came here...what books have you read by CHristian authors? Or have you only read what supports your view...??

Shoot I'll give you a list as an example...

Any book by Ravi Zacharias
Any book by C.S. Lewis
Any book by Lee Stroebel...
Josh McDowell...
John Piper...

Any others? Simple question...Anyone who boasts that he thinks critically should be able to provide a list of those authors in support of as well as against.

If he'd bother to read Francis Collins' book alone (The Language of God), he'd learn a lot.

Oh you make me laugh...you are reprimanding us for not thinking critically and then use Bill Maher as some sort of unbiased source?

It is a published statistic - which I assume their researchers had to verify. I am pretty sure that such information is scrutinised before publication - at least it is here in the UK, the US is probably not so fastidious. But statistics are "massaged", depends on how you categorise the data - so fair point.

Tell me....how many good apologetic books have you actually read? Have you critically examined the Bible using any resource other than those that support your view? I would be willing to bet that you haven't, but I will gladly be proven wrong. So how many books written by Christians have you actually read?

I don't seek out books that support my world view, I seek out books by subject, mostly, physics, psychology, genetics, biology, neuroscience. It just happens that the overall "tone" of such books generally ridicules any religious ideas. I suppose the only books that I have read that actively and openly support my world view are "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, and "The End Of Faith" by Sam Harris (which were sent to me by my brother because he thought I would find them entertaining) I then went on to read a book which was supposed to be the antonym to "The End Of Faith" (can't remember its title) I managed to get half way through it before collapsing in laughter. It was clearly a "knee jerk" reaction and not well thought out.

Other than that I only read science based literature. I work in the UK as an electronics engineer, and some years ago worked in the US as a software engineer. So logical thinking, cause and effect analysis, and absolute accuracy are part of the job. I value my OWN reasoning skills. I have read large amounts of the bible over the years - I read Genesis (again) a few weeks ago and found it hilarious. But more as a study of the evolution of the human mind. I read Darwin's "Origin.." about 20 years ago, and I was reading Einstein's General Relativity and Special Relativity about 30 years ago.

I must admit that when I start reading a book and I encounter a statement that is clearly and obviously wrong - then I tend to put the book down. Its not worth my time to read anything written by someone who doesn't check their facts, or who doesn't have the intellectual capacity to fully understand what they are trying to explain. So no, I haven't read many books written by Christians. So I don't purport to be an expert in theology - but once you understand the human mind in relation to belief systems then there is little value in researching the topic. I don't need to know what people dream about in order understand what dreaming is.

THen you have absolutely no validity in claiming to critical thinking or in criticizing something about which you know, well, really, only a decidedly biased view.

The laughable thing is you have come here declaring how wonderfully rational and reasonable, how idiotic we must be to believe in, oh can you believe it? a fairy tale story! Oh how precious you silly Christians are!

Well, gee, we're only just *too* happy to have you here to explain to us how ridiculous we are...oh (she swoons, overwhelmed with emotion), how silly we are! I never, ever, met anyone...no, wait, we have never met anyone, anywhere, who showed us the way!

And then, just wait, this is priceless, you admit to never having read anything but atheist material. Guess what! That means you have only read material that supports your own beliefs...(wiping away tears)...

Oh please, how arrogant and pretentious you are. You claim that you are such a high thinker and you come here willing to criticize...not only criticize but shamelessly, ignorantly so! I never cease to be amazed when "rational", critcal thinkers like yourself get amazed at our so-called ignorance of science and yet they come here not even having read the most basic of Christian apologetic books or even much of the BIble...

It is now 2.30am here in the UK, and I have to be at work tomorrow. So I must sign off now.

But as an aside, I work with a mathematical genius and serious intellectual - who is also a Christian. But does it make him happy? No.I think he is one of the most troubled individuals I have ever met. Clearly he desperately wants to believe, and he wants the social and spiritual benefits that go with it, but he gets very upset when I suggest that maybe it is all just made up. Why be so defensive? And why be so sure of something that cannot possibly be proven? Unless you are over-compensating for your own lack of faith-based belief and trying to convince yourself something that is otherwise ludicrous. If you hear voices in your head, then you should be locked up, plain and simple, but get God in the picture and anything can be justified.

Yep, you showed your colors!

Goodbye

And then, just wait, this is priceless, you admit to never having read anything but atheist material.

So you are basically saying that anything that is science based, peer reviewed and proven by demonstration is by definition "atheist" material and should therefore be debunked. That's how you do it! That's how you can bring yourself to believe "fairy stories" - by discrediting anything that is based on fact. Out of interest, have you read (and actually understood) anything that is a credible science publication? - I know that sort of thing is scarce in the US, you may not realise it, but the US is very selective regarding what is published and what is buried. But this is just my own observation - I have a brother in the US and have spent some time over there.

BTW - in the UK, Christians are generally thought of as the "weirdos" - and are a rare and dying breed.

I must admit that when I start reading a book and I encounter a statement that is clearly and obviously wrong - then I tend to put the book down. Its not worth my time to read anything written by someone who doesn't check their facts, or who doesn't have the intellectual capacity to fully understand what they are trying to explain. So no, I haven't read many books written by Christians. So I don't purport to be an expert in theology - but once you understand the human mind in relation to belief systems then there is little value in researching the topic. I don't need to know what people dream about in order understand what dreaming is.

Wow, is about all I can say. He knows all ahead of time, so that's that! Ha ha ha. He really understands the human mind . . . If so, and we can deceive ourselves (like through "belief"), then who says you're not deceiving yourself?

Yeah, that's just another Christian basher...

I don't have too much to post again, but if "Realist" is going by real statistics and logic and all of that, he should be aware that multiple statistics have shown that Christians live happier, longer, and more fulfilled lives than atheists or agnostics. They're much more likely to give to charities, the list goes on and on. That's according to the statistics, not the one guy he met who he's decided must really be depressed.

But I guess he's shown by now that he's not interested in intellectual integrity. I'll refrain from engaging in this conversation any further, because frankly I'm tired of engaging people like this. All too willing to "talk the talk" when it comes to honesty and reason and rational thought, but completely unwilling to apply the principles they preach because they've already presupposed that any religious ideas are stupid. For me at least, arguing with people with this mindset is just a waste.

Edit- and wow at that last post... just wow. This guy even admits that he won't bother reading Christian works, he doesn't understand theology, and he won't look at stats that don't come straight from a Dawkins' book. Don't even know where to begin with that one...

If you hear voices in your head, then you should be locked up, plain and simple, but get God in the picture and anything can be justified.

I think you have proven my point beyond measure. Clearly you would not want to be around us weirdos any longer...you want to stay safe and sound in the little bubble of biased literature you have built around yourself.

I have no problem whatsoever in you reading atheist literature. But the simple fact is, you cannot claim to know all there is to know about Christianity when you admit that you have not read all there is to know about Christianity. (by any mean!)

If and when you really want to know or are willing to discuss what we have to say, then by all means come back. I would encourage you to read through Lewis's works and Ravi Zacharias. Check out their works and website (shoot, check out our website, there are plenty of good starting points for evidence). It's the only rational thing to do

But until then, clearly you are not willing to weigh the evidence when you are only interested in hearing one party. Doesn't sound very much like a reasonable mind to me, but hey, what do I know, I'm just a weirdo...

Goodbye...

I'm still chuckling at "knowing the human mind" thing as an excuse to avoid real inquiry.