Question about salvation assurance...

[RickD]

Where should God be, though? Do you mean He's the only One we should pray to?

James, I can't tell if this is a serious question. Are you asking if there is someone else we should be praying to?

[JamesScott]

Where should God be, though? Do you mean He's the only One we should pray to?

James, I can't tell if this is a serious question. Are you asking if there is someone else we should be praying to?

No, I'm asking if that is the reason you think Mary is being placed at a level that only God should be placed at; because she is being prayed to.

[RickD]

Where should God be, though? Do you mean He's the only One we should pray to?

James, I can't tell if this is a serious question. Are you asking if there is someone else we should be praying to?

No, I'm asking if that is the reason you think Mary is being placed at a level that only God should be placed at; because she is being prayed to.

Oh, sorry. Yes, that is one example. And, in the example from the Novena to St. Peregrine, it appears that Mary can also "cure the sick".

[JamesScott]

RickD,

Oh, sorry.

LoL, its ok.

Yes, that is one example.

Well, I don't really view prayer as any different than speaking with anyone. I'm speaking to you, but I'm not worshipping you or anything like that. Its just that because of the Resurrection of Christ, we believe that death is no longer a barrier for the Church.

it appears that Mary can also "cure the sick".

The Apostles cured the sick...

[RickD]

Well, I don't really view prayer as any different than speaking with anyone. I'm speaking to you, but I'm not worshipping you or anything like that. Its just that because of the Resurrection of Christ, we believe that death is no longer a barrier for the Church.

call me old-fashioned, but I believe prayer should be reserved for God alone. Prayer is the way I speak to God, not anyone else.

The Apostles cured the sick..

So did my childhood Dr. Maybe I should give him a ring in Heaven, to ask him to cure my lumbago. (I really don't have lumbago. I just like saying it. Lumbago...lumbago...lumbago)

[JamesScott]

RickD,

call me old-fashioned, but I believe prayer should be reserved for God alone. Prayer is the way I speak to God, not anyone else.

That's actually not old fashioned.
And looking back to my Baptist days, I remember I used to believe prayer was worship. I'm pretty sure most, if not all, Evangelical Protestants believe this. Now I just view it as communication.

So did my childhood Dr. Maybe I should give him a ring in Heaven, to ask him to cure my lumbago.

Ok, we went from talking about whether or not Mary can cure people, to questioning the reason she is glorified in heaven, right? I mean, is that what is being questioned in your analogy?

[RickD]

From Dictionary.com:

prayer
1    /prÉ›ər/ Show Spelled[prair] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a devout petition to god or an object of worship.
2.
a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.
3.
the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.

Notice, they all say God or an object of worship. By definition, if one prays to someone/something, it becomes his object of worship. God alone is worthy of worship.

[JamesScott]

From Dictionary.com:

prayer
1    /prÉ›ər/ Show Spelled[prair] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a devout petition to god or an object of worship.
2.
a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.
3.
the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.

Notice, they all say God or an object of worship. By definition, if one prays to someone/something, it becomes his object of worship. God alone is worthy of worship.

That is an english dictionary...
It's been a while since I've studied it, but if I'm not mistaken, the greek word for prayer is "talk to" or "utterance"

And what is worship? What is the nature of it? What does it mean to worship?

[RickD]

James, I think we're going around in circles here. I believe we should pray to God alone. You believe talking to dead saints and Mary is o.k. because they're not really dead. Why is it any different when you speak to dead people then when someone conducts a seance and attempts to speak with the dead?

BIBLE Q & A

Q: What does the Bible say about
talking to the dead?
...............

Is it wrong to contact or communicate with the dead? Someone I know claims to have been visited by a deceased relative. Is this any different than praying to the dead, as in Roman Catholicism? DC, California

A: The Old Testament term for communicating with the dead is "necromancy." (Deuteronomy 18:11, also read verse 10) It is forbidden by God: "There shall not be found among you... For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord" (an "abomination," KJV).

Also see: 1 Samuel 28:3-20; 2 Chronicles 10:13, 14; Isaiah 8:19-22. The punishment for contacting the dead is very severe, if not repented of.

This must also include what Roman Catholicism claims is praying to the "saints" -- the deceased who have been beatified, canonized, or placed in a position of spiritual superiority by the hierarchy. (Scripture refers to all believers as "saints.") The real force at work in such "apparitions" (appearances of the deceased) is deception: demonic activity, evil spirits. Satan disguises himself as "an angel of light," it says in 2 Corinthians 11:14. (He doesn't approach us saying, "Boo!" or we'd run & hide.)

When prophecies or visions fail to come to pass, we know they're not of God (Deuteronomy 18:21-22). But even if a vision or prophecy does come to pass, scripture says, we are still instructed to examine or discern the source: if it doesn't glorify Jesus -- if it glorifies any other person, living or dead -- it's not of God.

When someone claims to have received a "vision" of the dead, it's really a deception of the enemy -- demon forces at work. Luke chapter 16 contains excellent instruction on the state of the dead, referring to an impassable separation between the after-life and this world. Those in the next world, saved or otherwise, simply do not return to deliver messages to the living:

"[Lazarus] died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom," and the rich man died and suffered torment in Hades. A "great gulf" separated the two and was "fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." (Luke 16:19-31)

Another example is the instance in which, at the death of his son, David testified: "I shall go to him, but he shall not return unto me." (2 Samuel 12:15-23)

Not all miracles are of God. Satan performs lying signs and wonders (Exodus 7:9-12; 8:7, 17-19; Deuteronomy 13:1-5; Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22; 2 Thessalonians 2:9; Revelation 13:13-14, 16:14; 19:20) The magicians in the times of Moses and Daniel could perform some magic (Exodus 7:9-12; 8:7; Daniel 1:20) ... but their power is limited (Exodus 8:17-19; Daniel 2:2, 10, 27; 4:7; 5:7-8, 15).

Many Roman Catholics and others, lacking discernment* and knowledge of the Scriptures ("My people perish for lack of knowledge") -- and trusting the hierarchy of man -- fail to "test the spirits and see whether they be of God" (1 John 4:1). They assume the priests do that for them! Some of the primary points relative to this issue include:

If a sign or wonder predicted comes to pass, but the person is enticed to follow after another god, we are to reject it. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5) Also, if the message delivered is contrary to Scripture, it's not from God (Isaiah 8:20; 2 Timothy 3:16). Some religious messages don't glorify Jesus at all; rather, the "vision" is glorified and, repeated again and again, perpetuated by tradition.

The Roman Catholic practice of praying to and for the dead can be traced in part to the Old Testament apocryphal books (2 Maccabees 12:46 "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead.") These books, rejected from the canon ("rule," or "standard") of Scripture, contain historical and geographical errors, and many teachings inconsistent with the rest of scripture: salvation by almsgiving; suicide; magic; angelic intercession; etc. Definitely nothing sturdy upon which to base one's eternal destiny.

* discernment is learned by experience (Hebrews 5:14), through knowledge of the Bible (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:15, 6; Ezekiel 44;23)

--Diane S. Dew © 1998

RETURN TO BIBLE Q&A PAGE

[jlay]

God does. But we have our part to do, too. While it is by the grace of God through faith that we are saved, we still have works to do. We cannot work our way to heaven, for only Jesus can open the kingdom of heaven to us, but we cannot be saved without works.

Sorry, James, but this is called trying to have your cake and eat it to. The bible clearly says, NOT OF WORKS. Should a Christian have works? They should walk worthy of their calling. But should and must are very different words in the english and the greek. (Acts 4:12)

As our Lord said, "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." St. Matthew 24:13
Again. Let us rightly divide the word of truth. There is much a believer can learn from Matthew's Gospel. However, if you think this applies to the current dispensation of the Gentiles, then you will only find yourself in frustration. Jesus is not even referring to the current age, but a future Kingdom age. First Matthew is a Jewish Gospel. Matthew also gives the context of Matt 24.
As He was sitting on athe Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of bYour coming, and of the end of the age?”

Once my fight is over, and I have been faithful, then I will be saved by the Lord's mercy.

Yes, you need to be faithful. And the first step is to give up this notion, and faithfully trust that he has saved you. You are saying your salvation depends on your ability.

God's power is greater. However, I alway maintain the free will to walk away if I so choose.

We are not talking about walking away. If you want to talk about apostasy, start a thread and we can discuss. We are talking about, can one know they are saved. You say it requires YOUR works. There is no hope in this gospel. You can not tell me how many, or how much of any good work you must do. How much prayer? How much worship? How much James?

By your own admission you are still a sinner. What hope is there for you? Hope that you get enough right to outweigh you bad. This is good news?
Let's reconstruct john 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him (and prays enough, is faithful enough, does enough good works, and tries real hard, and conforms) should not perish but have everlasting life.

[JamesScott]

jlay,

I have already said I don't believe we can work our way to heaven. Based on what you said I'm saying, I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
Let me give you this analogy a heard a while ago:

Someone says you must eat one peanut-butter and jelly sandwich to be saved. Can you only have penut-butter on the sandwich? No. Can you havve only jelly in the sandwich? No. You need both.
Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. It comes together.

You said:

Jesus is not even referring to the current age, but a future Kingdom age. First Matthew is a Jewish Gospel. Matthew also gives the context of Matt 24.

We're going to have to endure in the future Kingdom? This world is a fight. It is a struggle to keep the Faith. It doesn't come easily.
And because its a Jewish Gospel means we shouldn't heed it?

john 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him (and prays enough, is faithful enough, does enough good works, and tries real hard, and conforms) should not perish but have everlasting life.

So, according to you, all we need to do is believe. We can "accept Christ," and than all we need to do is wait for heaven? We don't need to pray, to worship, to struggle with our pride and other temptations..
Note what St. James said "You believe that there is one God, you do well. Even the demons believe---and tremble!"

It is God's grace and faith in Jesus that saves us. The Lord, out of His mercy saves us. However, we must nurture our faith in God and love for Him through works. As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead {St. James 2:26}. There is no "Faith OR works," it is "Faith AND works," or "Faith, therefore works." The way we show what faith we have is by doing good works.

[JamesScott]

RickD,

You believe talking to dead saints and Mary is o.k. because they're not really dead. Why is it any different when you speak to dead people then when someone conducts a seance and attempts to speak with the dead?

I think you just answered you're own question. It's not the same as speaking with the dead, because they are not dead.

And we are not going to a witch to call up a spirit. We are speaking to our victorious brothers and sisters who are in the kingdom of God, and who will never die {St. John 6:50}. They are alive in Christ. Christ has defeated death, and they are in Christ, therefore they have overcome it are are with Him.

[JamesScott]

jlay,

We are not talking about walking away. If you want to talk about apostasy, start a thread and we can discuss.

Yes, in that moment, we were. I mentioned it because that is one of the reasons I do not believe we are presently saved.

[Gabrielman]

It is God's grace and faith in Jesus that saves us. The Lord, out of His mercy saves us. However, we must nurture our faith in God and love for Him through works. As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead {St. James 2:26}. There is no "Faith OR works," it is "Faith AND works," or "Faith, therefore works." The way we show what faith we have is by doing good works.

Faith without works is dead! Yes. When one is saved and filled with the Holy Spirit they will be moved within to serve the Lord in the way He calls them to do. I would like to state as well that when you have been given the gift of salvation you would want to share it with others, would you not? Doing so is works, but those works came from faith and salvation. Salvation did not come from works, but rather the other way around.

So, according to you, all we need to do is believe. We can "accept Christ," and than all we need to do is wait for heaven? We don't need to pray, to worship, to struggle with our pride and other temptations..
Note what St. James said "You believe that there is one God, you do well. Even the demons believe---and tremble!"

A life with Christ is a changed life, to be sure. Just knowing of a God does not save someone, if they are not willing to accept Him as their Lord and Savior! I would like to put it like this, if you saw Jesus, in all of His glory, and you KNEW He was real and He was God, and you rejected that, you would not go to heaven. If you accept Him as your Lord and Savior, then you will. And He will work through you.

[JamesScott]

Gabrielman,

Faith without works is dead! Yes.

Yes, indeed!

When one is saved and filled with the Holy Spirit they will be moved within to serve the Lord in the way He calls them to do.

Certainly, but even with the Holy Spirit's help its not easy. It is still a struggle for us to live in humility and purity, and to choose His will above our own.

Salvation did not come from works, but rather the other way around.

Yes, I agree again. Our faith is perfected and made complete in works.