Evidence for God from Science

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote: Gman, I'm not sure I buy into your argument. If Adam and Eve walked around naked before they sinned, and weren't embarrassed, I'm not sure they would be embarrassed from tooting.

Ok but I bet if you went to a nudist colony, and someone in the midst farted, you would get laughs or even looks for that matter. Bottom line it is not an appropriate thing to do in public..

But, why is it not appropriate? Our culture tells us it's inappropriate, correct. I think a nudist colony is more inappropriate then farting in public. I've been to other countries where women going topless on the beach, as well as nude beaches are the norm. That to me is much more inappropriate then farting in public. Even worse than really smelly farts. I'm finding it really difficult to believe you're seriously using this as an argument against YEC. Is this discussion of farts leading up to something else? Or, do you really believe that it is a legitimate argument against the YEC view that the creation was without error?

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote:

DannyM wrote:Gman, isn't it the most natural thing for the body to discharge after digestion? How would the body behaving like a body should behave be a sin? Forgive me if I have missed the point.

Danny, It wouldn't. Gman is just trying to make the point that if one holds to a YEC worldview, then God's creation was "perfect"(without error). OEC just holds to the view that creation is "perfect"(best for this temporary creation).

Yes, and it points to other things too.. Like cancers and other aliments or diseases or even genetic mutations. It's just a thing that is going to happen happen in a natural world...

Not that God wanted any of this.. Including farting. Would you really want to make your creation fart? No... But there are certain natural laws that cannot be ignored when you live in a physical environment..

Get it?

Gman, maybe God DID want farts. He may have a real good sense of humor. Farts can be pretty funny.

RickD wrote:

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote: Gman, I'm not sure I buy into your argument. If Adam and Eve walked around naked before they sinned, and weren't embarrassed, I'm not sure they would be embarrassed from tooting.

Ok but I bet if you went to a nudist colony, and someone in the midst farted, you would get laughs or even looks for that matter. Bottom line it is not an appropriate thing to do in public..

But, why is it not appropriate? Our culture tells us it's inappropriate, correct. I think a nudist colony is more inappropriate then farting in public. I've been to other countries where women going topless on the beach, as well as nude beaches are the norm. That to me is much more inappropriate then farting in public. Even worse than really smelly farts. I'm finding it really difficult to believe you're seriously using this as an argument against YEC. Is this discussion of farts leading up to something else? Or, do you really believe that it is a legitimate argument against the YEC view that the creation was without error?

In all cultures, farting is an embarrassment... Here is a question for you. If you were God, wouldn't you create your creation without farting? If you had the chance... And be honest..

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote:

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote: Gman, I'm not sure I buy into your argument. If Adam and Eve walked around naked before they sinned, and weren't embarrassed, I'm not sure they would be embarrassed from tooting.

Ok but I bet if you went to a nudist colony, and someone in the midst farted, you would get laughs or even looks for that matter. Bottom line it is not an appropriate thing to do in public..

But, why is it not appropriate? Our culture tells us it's inappropriate, correct. I think a nudist colony is more inappropriate then farting in public. I've been to other countries where women going topless on the beach, as well as nude beaches are the norm. That to me is much more inappropriate then farting in public. Even worse than really smelly farts. I'm finding it really difficult to believe you're seriously using this as an argument against YEC. Is this discussion of farts leading up to something else? Or, do you really believe that it is a legitimate argument against the YEC view that the creation was without error?

In all cultures, farting is an embarrassment... Here is a question for you. If you were God, wouldn't you create your creation without farting? If you had the chance... And be honest..

See my last post.

RickD wrote:Gman, maybe God DID want farts. He may have a real good sense of humor. Farts can be pretty funny.

Ok... Maybe. But how about in a serious moment?

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote:Gman, maybe God DID want farts. He may have a real good sense of humor. Farts can be pretty funny.

Ok... Maybe. But how about in a serious moment?

Serious moments are sometimes the best times to let one rip. I'll admit that there are probably times that cutting the cheese is inappropriate. Like, letting a loud one loose in the middle of prayer at church, perhaps? But, I've found that loud farts can be a good opening when the conversation has gotten a little dull.

RickD wrote:

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote:Gman, maybe God DID want farts. He may have a real good sense of humor. Farts can be pretty funny.

Ok... Maybe. But how about in a serious moment?

Serious moments are sometimes the best times to let one rip. I'll admit that there are probably times that cutting the cheese is inappropriate. Like, letting a loud one loose in the middle of prayer at church, perhaps? But, I've found that loud farts can be a good opening when the conversation has gotten a little dull.

So in a perfect world, like the Garden of Eden, you would have created man with loud smelly farts?

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote:

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote:Gman, maybe God DID want farts. He may have a real good sense of humor. Farts can be pretty funny.

Ok... Maybe. But how about in a serious moment?

Serious moments are sometimes the best times to let one rip. I'll admit that there are probably times that cutting the cheese is inappropriate. Like, letting a loud one loose in the middle of prayer at church, perhaps? But, I've found that loud farts can be a good opening when the conversation has gotten a little dull.

So in a perfect world, like the Garden of Eden, you would have created man with loud smelly farts?

I'd like to think that God created man with the potential to produce a loud, smelly fart. I'm not sure I'd agree that God created Adam with gas already inside him so he could fart immediately upon being created. Besides, I wouldn't agree that the loud farts are the smelliest ones. The slow, silent farts are usually the worst imo.

Gross smell, yes. But the act of farting is the body acting as the body should. How, by farting, is the body failing in some way?

I dunno...I think the embarassment or the "gross"ness about it is simply our baggage. Of course...I was raised with brothers watching Mel Brooks so...

I am a firm believer that we cannot take ourselves too seriously. Sometimes we need things like this to remind us to cut (HAH) loose...

DannyM wrote:Gross smell, yes. But the act of farting is the body acting as the body should. How, by farting, is the body failing in some way?

I'm not sure what you're gettin at Danny. Maybe it's a British thing. Our farts don't smell here.

RickD wrote:I'd like to think that God created man with the potential to produce a loud, smelly fart. I'm not sure I'd agree that God created Adam with gas already inside him so he could fart immediately upon being created. Besides, I wouldn't agree that the loud farts are the smelliest ones. The slow, silent farts are usually the worst imo.

Yes and there is some decay that is happening in the intestine when bacteria breaks down solids. According to the YEC beliefs, there was no decay before sin.. I think this is a problem for them..

As I said, it is being assumed that farting is somehow a negation of a 'perfect' body. But discharge is actually a result of a properly functioning body. A body which did not fart would seem to me to be a quite unnatural body. And the "grossness"
involved is simply subjective, depending on your threshold and tolerance levels.

RickD wrote:

DannyM wrote:Gross smell, yes. But the act of farting is the body acting as the body should. How, by farting, is the body failing in some way?

I'm not sure what you're gettin at Danny. Maybe it's a British thing. Our farts don't smell here.

Really? That's great news, Rick...

Seriously, I think it points to the underlying premises we carry to our understanding of God and the World.

The gnostics had a similar western point of view to what we have in North America. They believed that spiritual was good and physical was evil or bad. So they resisted the idea that Jesus was God come in the flesh. They couldn't accept that the two could mix.

Now don't misunderstand what I'm going to say because I'm not saying this as a universal statement to mean all YEC proponents are this way.

There's an underlying tendency in YEC doctrine and viewpoints to take a similar view when looking back to the garden and to the impact of the fall. Part of the whole interpretation of Romans 5 is to see an idyllic setting in the garden that equals "perfect" in the sense that everything that we experience now is uncomfortable to think of in the garden. No death. No entropy. Vegetarian diet only for all creatures (including what are now carnivores).

And yes, it seems ridiculous, but I'd dare say even some who might include no farting or excrement (do you want to go there GMan? )

Genesis doesn't say "perfect" in relation to the garden and creation. It says "good" and with the creation of man "very good." This isn't about abstract perfection and the elevation of spirituality over physical nature.

Want to know something? I'll step out on a limb here and say that Jesus in his incarnation here on earth, ate, drank, belched and even farted on average 14 times a day (which is the medically established average.) Jesus experienced physical life as we do and it wasn't "evil." It's how God created us and how God entered into our experience to reach out to love us.

I really think our western culture is so wrapped around the axle on a lot of things that we don't even think about or examine and then carry into our views when we look at God and the Bible and don't even realize we're doing it. I think there's some elements of YEC where that is especially true and the conversation gets very heated and emotional because these types of underlying issues are there and not acknowledged or realized.

Does "perfect" (assuming there's even a reason to assume a perfect world given God Himself calls it "good") mean perfect by our western, highly greek philosophy influenced definition?) Or does it mean, as the eastern mindset sees is, "mature", "as God intended it to be".

God is not bound by our cultural mores. It doesn't matter how we would make something "perfect." Instead of trying to create little abstract ideas of what things should be, why not just accept the world God created as it is and rejoice that Christ has entered into our humanity?