Evidence for God from Science

Canuckster1127 wrote:You may deny our differences if you wish and try to speak around them, but respectfully, there is no "house of God" outside of His residence within the collective body of believers. God ceased to dwell in temples or buildings with the tearing of the veil in the Holy of Holies when Christ died and then Pentecost when it manifested in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah…I beat you to that point Bart…LOL!!!

J Davis wrote:Come on Bart..LOL! I have no desire to play word games and cause confusion concerning old and new testament terms.

J Davis wrote:Therefore, as sated in my pervious post, I believe we are the church, God dwells in us now, not temples of stone. As said in Matthew 18:20.…"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.

..(Repeat my pervious post on page 2)

Add to that this…(from the second post on page 1)

J Davis wrote:And yes, we are the church but the world still acknowledges the church building as the house of God.

And combine that with the following…

Canuckster1127 wrote:Again, if you want to discuss the church issues primarily I think we should start another thread so we don't go too far off topic here.

I already pointed out what new testament scripture says regarding the matter as it relates to this topic and I have shown the scriptures and beliefs I support (my pervious post on page 2) concerning the church (that is what I believe…period). I feel those Christians who study the bible and receive guidance from the Holy Spirit will not be lead astray and are easily capable of discerning what is of the Holy Spirit within them and what is not. Once more.. everything I have said in this thread in regards to the topic goes together and is not to be separated from any other part of what I have said concerning this topic within this thread. It is possible for various topics to have varying conditions in relation to the church and I speak specifically of church regarding all the elements in relation to the views (those who see Christians as the church and those who do not and refer to a non human structure) in this thread.

Concerning church in regards to this topic within this thread, I have said exactly what I intended to say and that which is completely biblical, there would only be a need for me to discuss the matter in another thread if I felt you said something I did not understand against what I have said, that is not the case. I have said what I intended to say and there is no confusion on my part concerning my view or your view, I simply do not feel your statements concerning the church (and other statements) are relevant points against my position concerning Jesus’ message and desires in relation to the issues I am discussing in this thread (not saying that that is your intent).

This is a public forum with both saved and unsaved all with various degrees of understanding when it comes to the bible and things that pertain to Jesus and things of God. Therefore, I do my best to use terms that both educated Christians will understand as well as those who have less education concerning Christianity and things that pertain to God.

J Davis wrote:And yes, we are the church but the world still acknowledges the church building as the house of God.

....

As proven by my quote above and various comments within each of my post. I am including both those who view Christians as the church and those who do not and refer to a non human structure. Therefore, I use words, terms, examples, metaphors and expressions that I believe will be easily understood by those who have either of the views I mentioned in this paragraph. And at various points in each post I purposely accommodate those who are educated Christians more than those who have less education and vice versa.

And as proven by the words (in many many scriptures) of Jesus and the disciples (Romans 6:19) in the bible, I am being completely biblical cornering what I discussed in my paragraph above. If one is trying to help an individual or group understand something, what good will it do to talk to the individual or group in a way they do not understand, that is foolish.

You are being much to critical concerning this church matter and overcomplicating things way to much, it is not necessary and adds nothing to what I have said, only confuses those who seek understanding. Jesus and his disciples used animals (sheep 1 Peter 2:25 etc), occupations (fishers of men Mark 1:17) elements and stars (Matthew 17:2) and the popular terms and phrases of their day (etc) in relation to numerous subjects.

So I am being completely biblical in my use of terms concerning this topic within this thread. If I wanted to say: Sup homies, yooo, checkout God’s crib at the end of Hampton court, it’s off the chain for real!

I would not be acting in a way that is unbiblical, my goal is to help people understand, I chose the terms and words I felt a large number of people could relate to concerning this forum and it all flows perfectly with Jesus’ message and desires in relation to the issues I am discussing, in a way He approves of.

But thanks for your thoughts Bart!

Concerning a few other points you made…

Canuckster1127 wrote:If there is a need within the context of Christian Fellowship (and there is) to exclude people in open rebellion against Christ for a season with a view to eventual restoration if at all possible, then there is also a need to emulate Christ by going out in the context of daily life and spending time and developing relationships with those who are social outcasts and who are suffering and to show them the love of Christ.

Got it covered ….(third post second page, bottom of page).

J Davis wrote:And those in charge of the church would do well to lead their church and organize events that help put a stop to the forces that act against the church (in a positive, biblical good and Godley way) while at the same time teaching on the endless love God has for those who are dealing with various forms of confused sexual identity or unbiblical sexual preference or orientation.

Canuckster1127 wrote:It's interesting to me that Jesus doesn't refer to people as "sinners". Jesus refers to people who are "lost" and whom He goes out to find them and whom he commissions his disciples and followers to go out and find as well.

Covered!..lol...third post second page.

J.Davis wrote:That is what needs to be dealt with and fought against concerning the church or else many will be lost (God has a plan).

You will notice that a large portion of that post was intended to accommodate educated Christians (but still does not go over the head of those who are less educated concerning Christianity). And I used sinners at points as well knowing that educated Christians would understand and those who are less educated concerning Christianity would be familiar with the term.

It’s a good practice used by Jesus and His disciples, I find it’s the best way and I recommend it.

All my points stand….

I've simply asserted my beliefs and clarifications as I felt necessary J.

Our outlooks and practices in this realm do differ and frankly, I"m more concerned about being biblically focused on this issue. That doesn't mean we're in grave disagreement. However, if you wish to invoke the understanding and views of those outside of the "church," institutional or organic, you need to recognize that there is a huge population that sees the church as more concerned about maintaining "purity" in the sense of who is and isn't welcome in their midst. Further, it often confuses what is behavior and what is the identity of a person. Whether it is intentional or not on the past of organizational churches (and both elements are there I'm convinced) the message is clearly received "Gays" or "Worldly" or "Criminals" or "fill in the blank" not welcome here.

You're welcome to believe your points stand. As I noted, I've left institutional christianity and am pursuing what I believe to be a healthier and more biblical approach. I and that approach are certainly not perfect.

Institutional Christianity however is undergoing some radical changes that are accelerating as on average 1,700 Christian workers are leaving institutional service every month (about two times the amount that are entering), and millions are leaving attendance and participation every year. Not all who are leaving are leaving because they've rejected the faith or are hurt and bitter about wounds inflicted (although that does represent a part.) Many are leaving in order to find and preserve their faith in a context that actually deepens and makes more practical a walk with Christ that doesn't delineate between "laity" and "clergy", that doesn't direct 80 cents of every dollar given into buildings and salaries, and that re-establishes servant leadership instead of hierarchical offices.

It's a generalization, but it's my belief and hope that as this movement continues that many of these people who currently receive the message loud and clear that they are not loved and not welcome in traditional churches, will know that there are many believers who are willing to see them as God sees them, love them where they are and then as they come to know Christ to see the progressive change in their lives that moves them first and foremost into a relationship with the God who can bring about change in their lives, rather than sending the message that they must change and clean themselves up before they're welcome to be among us.

That's not an absolute statement. I know there are traditional churches that do a good job of that and I'm grateful for them. My observation is that they are more exceptions than the rule, but that's just my opinion and others can and will no doubt disagree.

Hey Bart!

Canuckster1127 wrote:I've simply asserted my beliefs and clarifications as I felt necessary J.

I was not implying otherwise…My last post covered some of my thoughts concerning your quote above.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Our outlooks and practices in this realm do differ and frankly, I’m more concerned about being biblically focused on this issue. That doesn't mean we're in grave disagreement.

That ^ was a bit risky given the title of the post that explains your definition of biblically focused my friend…LOL! Come on Bart you know as well as I do that individuals do not always have the same perspective of the bible, interpretation of scripture and things that pertain to God. This is nothing but another opening for more word games and unnecessary confusion, I believe I am biblically focused on this issue concerning my beliefs and you feel that you are biblically focused concerning your beliefs. However, you have given no scripture concerning the matter. Provide scripture concerning what you believe relating to these specific issues in my paragraph below and explain why it is good to do (because I believe it is not good to do and you say our views differ).

Is it ok to approve of unGodly sin that corrupts, perform same sex marriages (that which is not good) in the church (human church), have openly gay practicing priest, cross dressers and/or transvestites who preach and approve of their lifestyle, allow unGodly forces to persist in bringing harm against the corresponding earthbound human church receiving harm without someone (we will say in charge in this case) putting a stop to it?

Until you can prove that I am in error concerning my belief that theses things are wrong and not good to do (can never be a non sin) then my points are true and never untrue or false concerning this topic in this thread and your view differs.

Canuckster1127 wrote:However, if you wish to invoke the understanding and views of those outside of the "church," institutional or organic, you need to recognize that there is a huge population that sees the church as more concerned about maintaining "purity" in the sense of who is and isn't welcome in their midst.

I don’t wish to invoke anything concerning this matter but the word of God, guidance of the Holy Spirit and all that God has given me to use on His behalf. I wish to communicate with them concerning what I have been given just as I described in my pervious post. I never said I was speaking exclusively to those outside the church (not that you are saying that, just making it clear).

Concerning me needing to “recognize that there is a huge population that sees the church as more concerned about maintaining "purity" in the sense of who is and isn't welcome in their midst”.

I am well aware of that which is why I said…

J.Davis wrote:Sinners are welcome in the house of God and we are all sinners, so don’t focus on that. We all have a right to enter the church and receive consoling and correction.

J.Davis wrote:Now I chose my words carefully here concerning the paragraph above, there is a difference between what a number of Christians approve of and what God approves of.

(add the rest of that paragraph above, trying to keep this short page 2 fifth paragraph)

J.Davis wrote:I will say that Christians need to be lead by the Holy Spirit concerning this matter, hating on peoples unbiblical sexual preference or orientation/confused sexual identity does not help at all, telling people God hates them because of their sin (it’s not true) does not help,

(add the rest of that paragraph above if you wish, page 2 third post twelfth paragraph)

And others…

Covered it..(as much as I felt was relevant to the post)…

Canuckster1127 wrote:Further, it often confuses what is behavior and what is the identity of a person.

Does not matter, if a visitor comes to the church and it is simply his personality to use profanity but the visitor can not stop using profanity in the church then he is still causing turmoil and the matter needs be addresses. And there are many wise ways to do that….It’s all about balance.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Whether it is intentional or not on the past of organizational churches (and both elements are there I'm convinced) the message is clearly received "Gays" or "Worldly" or "Criminals" or "fill in the blank" not welcome here.

True, but I speak of what to do concerning the matter now. Some churches have it wrong and that is something we can all help correct. However, in this day and age the Gay issue has a lot more force than the others. No one is trying to force the church to drink and get drunk, smoke, ordain practicing Criminals, unqualified Worldly people, drunkards etc as priest, stop us from speaking against the Criminal, drunkard, fornicator life style, force Criminal, drunkard teachings in school etc etc and etc…It’s only homosexuals and we have an obligation to run the church in a biblical manner no matter what laws or pressures are being pushed on us (the church).

Canuckster1127 wrote:You're welcome to believe your points stand. As I noted, I've left institutional christianity and am pursuing what I believe to be a healthier and more biblical approach. I and that approach are certainly not perfect.

It’s not a belief Bart… It’s a simple fact based off of observation, my points stand simply because they have the strength to do so, they are well nourished by the fruit of the Spirit which provides them with the power and life God supplies on account of their virtue to stand on His word and very essence, they refuse to waver, wearing the armor of God, cutting down their opponents with the precision of an elite solider of the highest order wielding a blade sharper than any two-edged sword and protected by an impenetrable shield forged by words of faith to the glory of God.

They stand on the pinnacle of God’s admiration as His enemies cower in the darkness, spreading their lies and confusion, tiptoeing around picking up any scraps they can find (disgusting), they are sloppy, one step too many and too far into God‘s domain. And now it’s too late to make it out alive. They reek of fear and panic…the end is near…cry, scream and beg for mercy but none will be given, for the wrath of God has none, only power to devour evil and turn it into a substance only grass would crave.

My points stand, because they can not fall…Amen.

I am by no means perfect, I never said I stand, but I speak with a humble heart and put faith in the Holy Spirit, that it will guide me in the use of God’s word, which is perfect (that may not always be the case for my words).

I agree with the rest of what you said after your quote above, it’s a lot more clear than your first post and well said..

My points stand..

I answered your question clearly I believe in terms of the practices of the institutional church in this regard and as you quoted my answer in one of your responses I don't know what more to say about it.

If there is a need within the context of Christian Fellowship (and there is) to exclude people in open rebellion against Christ for a season with a view to eventual restoration if at all possible, then there is also a need to emulate Christ by going out in the context of daily life and spending time and developing relationships with those who are social outcasts and who are suffering and to show them the love of Christ.

I understand why institutional churches want to exclude people from certain practices within their context, but as the practices mentioned are to my understanding not Biblically mandated expressions of church body life, those issues are moot to me. To me it simply illustrates partially why some of these practices are personality and hierarchically driven institutional practices and not organic or relationally driven in the context of the "church" as the body of Christ.

If you wish to understand more of where I am coming from in my views probably the best resources to look at would be "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola and George Barna, followed by "Reimagining Church" by Frank Viola. The first book is deconstructionalist in terms of institutional church practices and the second book asserts a positive Biblically based ecclesiology of what a more Biblically based and early church practice type of local fellowship might look like. They're best read as a pair. They do a better job of presenting in this area than I could do in the context of forum posts, but again, if anyone wants to discuss this, we can start a thread in the appropriate forum.

Thanks for the discussion.

Colin2000 wrote:Hi All,

I have my wife's cousin walk into my Church Christmas Eve Mass dressed as a woman he is really a man, I think! That should have got the temperature in there above freezing point but it didn't seem to cause a stir at all! The English tend to pretend there is nothing happening you know if it isn't the norm or more they expect!!!

As with Homosexuality do those active here consider this male cousin of my wife who considers that his actions do not commit a perpetual sin when dressed thus have any grounds to believe this other than he likes it? Do you consider he is sinning or only her when wearing skirt and wig is sinning?

I am trying to make light of this event as he perpetuates what I consider a sin and as he professes to be a Christian now! I would be glad of some advice before I send a letter of resignation to my Anglican Church on this impasse where my Vicar welcomes this sinner into the local Anglican Church and to all appearances appears to accept him as a she I am told.

Yours in Christ,

Colin2000.

PS. That is without my problems in my Church over women lookalike Priests celebrating and consecrating The Bread and The Wine, (Flesh and Blood!), and then there is the prospect of one of those women becoming my Bishop soon! Nasty, it makes you think for a minute that The Pope, First amongst Bishops has got it right after all!!!

WOW that’s funny. With church’s like that, who needs New Orleans Mardi Gras?

You see someone "different" coming into your assembly then judge and condemn them? That does not demonstrate the love and power of the Holy Spirit, it represents a HUMAN mindset filled with desire to be perceived as Holy. I do not believe Jesus would have "cast out" ANYONE different, be it a cross dresser, homosexual, or otherwise. With a mindset such as this, Jesus would have been casting stones! The power of prayer and thanksgiving effects more power and love than ANY amount of judgement and condemnation people often levy against others. Do you ever exceed the speed limit or violate any traffic laws and rules of the road, committing sin? Until a person has the diety of Christ and is sinless, they have NO RIGHT or place to wield an angry spirit in judgement and condemnation of others.