Evidence for God from Science

Another thing I find amazing is how Calvinism and Covenant theology always proclaim the absolute sovereignty of God, a sparrow can’t fall in the wilderness without this sovereignty but when it comes to the Jewish people returning to Israel from 1920’s thru to this current date, this is a fluke, a man made fiasco! I guess so much for the sovereign will of God, if the Jewish people are a fluke of the works of man – then what of God’s sovereign will?

I would say that it isn't an issue of whether this could not have been done but whether this is a sign of any fulfillment of scripture. Obviously we would support that God could certianly have done so in HIs will.

B. W. wrote:
Isaiah 11:11-12 is true and does not refer to Revelation last chapters time frame because a remnant began returning to Israel, a nation born in one day - 1948 and Jews still return there to this day. Less than half of all Jews live in Israel today. God will bring a remnant back into the land – a second time. It is going on even now. There are only two occasions in which the entire Jewish population was expelled from the Land promised and now we have empirically two regatherings have already occured as well, just as God said it would.

Again, like this or not – it has happened – deny it – you can – try to sola scripture twist ones way out of this – you can but the fact remains: The 12 tribes are being regathered back to Israel from about 1920’s to this very current date. They exist by the sovereign will of God – not man. If anyone is a Zionist it is the Sovereign Lord God (Yahweh Elohim) himself!
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Yes this is the way I see it too Bryan..

As far as saying that Revelation is "symbolic" then we would also have to say the same thing about the OT as being symbolic, because they talk about the same things..

Gman wrote:

B. W. wrote:
Isaiah 11:11-12 is true and does not refer to Revelation last chapters time frame because a remnant began returning to Israel, a nation born in one day - 1948 and Jews still return there to this day. Less than half of all Jews live in Israel today. God will bring a remnant back into the land – a second time. It is going on even now. There are only two occasions in which the entire Jewish population was expelled from the Land promised and now we have empirically two regatherings have already occured as well, just as God said it would.

Again, like this or not – it has happened – deny it – you can – try to sola scripture twist ones way out of this – you can but the fact remains: The 12 tribes are being regathered back to Israel from about 1920’s to this very current date. They exist by the sovereign will of God – not man. If anyone is a Zionist it is the Sovereign Lord God (Yahweh Elohim) himself!

Yes this is the way I see it too Bryan..

As far as saying that Revelation is "symbolic" then we would also have to say the same thing about the OT as being symbolic, because they talk about the same things..

Yes, that would be true Gman.

To others, let me say, in no-way am I trying to impugn Calvinism as having everything wrong. Calvinism has much that is correct as well as the error of ‘locked box theology.’ Again doctrine is a tool to help one grow and discover who the Lord is and develop an improving living relationship with him. It is best to measure doctrine with who, what, and how God reveals his nature and character within the bible. This requires much wrestling with God at times but well worth learning how to walk with a limp.

What Satan tries to do, is to position God in such manner as to force God to act contrary to God’s own Character/Nature. In this, the devil attempts the means by which he can exalt his throne over God’s. This is also revealed in bad doctrine as it pits God to act contrary to himself, which God will never do.

When one see’s this, and wrestles a bit with the Lord, they soon discover parts of Doctrine that is flawed and leave it behind and retain the good proven and approved by God in the Spirit. Much of all sub branches of Preterism do indeed challenge God to act contrary to his own nature and character – there is some truth in it but it strays.

There is much good in Calvinism and also parts that would force God to act contrary to himself. That is why I say, and only can advise people on their own omni-personal journey with Christ, to use doctrine as a tool and test it against who, what, and how God reveals about his own nature and personal character. God is faithful, the bible declares. If doctrine forces him not to be faithful in any area, then how can God really say He is Faithful and not be so? Preterism and parts of Calvinism as well as Armanian doctrine pose challenges to God’s faithfulness. What they are – I’ll leave that for you to discover between the Lord and yourself as we need to stay on topic.

If God is not faithful to his own word, gift, and promises to the Jewish People, then how can he really be a faithful God? With that – you must wrestle with. I will continue on, Lord willing, and further show from the bible such faithfulness God has regarding this topic at a later time. So forgive me if I do not answer anyone’s post more directly at this time. I will show forth from the bible – OT – things not many people bother to check with regarding the two regatherings of Israel proving God is indeed ever Faithful.
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B. W. wrote:Another thing I find amazing is how Calvinism and Covenant theology always proclaim the absolute sovereignty of God, a sparrow can’t fall in the wilderness without this sovereignty but when it comes to the Jewish people returning to Israel from 1920’s thru to this current date, this is a fluke, a man made fiasco! I guess so much for the sovereign will of God, if the Jewish people are a fluke of the works of man – then what of God’s sovereign will?

Calvinists do not consider consider the return of the Israelites (assuming they are true Israelite) a fluke. We don't believe in flukes. We just don't believe that it is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy, and has about as much relevance to the end times as what I had for breakfast.

You do realize that Isaiah 11 speaks of Christ's First Advent, correct? As far as God's chosen nation being gather from around the earth in one day, there is another option. (Acts 2:1, Acts 2:7-11 cf. 1 Peter 2:9-10) I see no mention of 1948 (which again requires the OT prophets to have seen the church age).

puritan lad wrote: You do realize that Isaiah 11 speaks of Christ's First Advent, correct? As far as God's chosen nation being gather from around the earth in one day, there is another option. (Acts 2:1, Acts 2:7-11 cf. 1 Peter 2:9-10) I see no mention of 1948 (which again requires the OT prophets to have seen the church age).

I'm not sure I understand.. You don't see 1948 in scripture or the reestablishment of Israel in scripture?

Gman wrote:I'm not sure I understand.. You don't see 1948 in scripture?

Nope.

Gman wrote:or the reestablishment of Israel in scripture

as an event beyond ancient history, no.

puritan lad wrote:

Gman wrote:I'm not sure I understand.. You don't see 1948 in scripture?

Nope.

Gman wrote:or the reestablishment of Israel in scripture

as an event beyond ancient history, no.

PL you might want to check out this thread then.

I would agree that it is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. An interesting quote:

jlay wrote:"Find anywhere in the OT where Grace by believing is specifically preached. Aside from Abraham's faith in God being acredited to Him as righteousness, you just won't find it."

First of all, even if the reference to Abraham's faith were the only one, it would be enough

Secondly, I again need to ask how the OT saints were saved. If they were under a dispensation of law, did the law save them? If so, then why did Christ have to die?

Thirdly, the statement is untrue (let's not forget the grace upon Noah - Genesis 6:8). When Paul said that the just shall live by faith, he wasn't creating a new rogue gospel. He was referencing Habakkuk 2:4.

In addition, the entire "Hall of Faith" in Hebrews testifies to the contrary, being the very faith that Christ is the author and finisher of (Hebrews 12:2)

"By faith Abel..."(Hebrews 11:4)
"By faith Enoch..."(Hebrews 11:5)
"By faith Noah.."((Hebrews 11:6), being warned by God concerning events as "By faith Abraham..."(Hebrews 11:8) obeyed when he was called to go out to "By faith Sarah..."(Hebrews 11:11) herself received power to conceive, even
"By faith Isaac..."(Hebrews 11:20)
"By faith Jacob...(Hebrews 11:21)
"By faith Joseph...(Hebrews 11:22)
"By faith Moses..."(Hebrews 11:23-24, Hebrews 11:24)
"By faith Rahab..."(Hebrews 11:31)

"And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets-- who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight." (Hebrews 11:32-34)

The OT saints were justified by faith in Jesus Christ. It's the only way they could be justified.

I get the feeling that jlay is heavily influenced by Dual-Covenant Theology, and that is a major problem.

As I stated before there will be, as God spoke in the bible, two regatherings of the Jewish people back into the Land God promised them. The entire population was scattered twice due to forsaking God, etc, as the bible plainly tells us. I quoted several of the passages already in prior post so no need to do so again here. I am going to continue my posting as each builds upon each other before answering other posts directly. Only way I know of that avoids, circumvention and get to the point sooner rather than later.

I want to address two issues one involves Forsaking and the other Regathering the Scattered Remnant, so this is a long post as both need to be placed together:

Forsaking

The bible declares God is faithful, carries out his word, will do what he says, so if God promises that he will not forsake Jewish Israel and yet says in another place that He will forsake them: Is this a contradiction? What gives? This provides a good illustration on what I mean concerning with wrestling with God for an answer by measuring what your doctrine is against God’s character/nature to uncover truth. God’s character of faithfulness, trustworthiness, justice is at stake here.

Bible tells us God is faithful and trustworthy, He is a God of Justice – no compromise on these characteristics of God. God promised the Jewish Israelite people that he would give them the Land He swore to their fathers. When they stray into apostasy, he would uproot them from the land and exact severe retribution upon them for violation of the first two commandments and after a period of time, send them back into the land. Deuteronomy chapters 28-31 speak of this very thing.

Did God ever really forsake Israel totally? The answer is No. God declares that he would bring a remnant back into the land; therefore, God can forsake the wicked of that land. Jonah said in Jonah 2:8 “Those who regard worthless idols forsake their own mercy,” NKJV; Therefore, those God abandons, forsakes, are those that forsake him.

This is an area few want to wrestle with God about – God promising not to forsake but then forsakes. Joshua 24:20 helps explain those whom God forsakes as defined are those that lead others into apostasy - punishing the ones that lead astray consuming them into ruin as Deuteronomy 31:16-17 speaks about.

2 Kings 21:4 God forsook whom? (Isaiah 65:11-12) God forsakes the apostate and the wicked and they are punished severely – however God will not totally forsake all his people due to his own promises and faithful character. In Deuteronomy 28:64 the Lord tells that he will scatter the remainder of people into nations in order to bring them to repentance.

Jeremiah 23:34-40 states harsh retribution to the leadership of Israel for leading the people astray – such apostates are forsaken by God but not all the people. The guilty pay severely and all the people receive what Exodus 20:1-7 mentions (retribution) and are removed from the Land as Deut 28:64, state. From the nations they were scattered in God said remnant will return to the land of Israel as God promised in Deut 30:1-6 to do in order to continue to carry out his divine purposes.

God therefore, keeps his word – he never totally forsakes as well is able to punish those that tempt God by misusing His promise not to forsake as an excuse to get away with forsaking God to serve apostasy so as to dodge God’s justice. That is one thing the apostate religious and political leaders were doing – abusing several character traits of God to their own advantage.

Here are a few examples: misused prosperity, abused God’s patience/longsuffering, contempt for the commandments as they thought they could for isn’t God a God of mercy/love/grace?; hence, made gods in their own imagines to worship/serve, etc… They fell away from the Lord and led the people to do the same. In essence the majority of the religious shepherds and politicians of ancient Israel were tempting and mocking God, leading the people to do the same.

God would forsake the wicked ancient Israelite apostates and inflict punishment. However since he promised the Land to the Jewish Israelites, how can God retain his integrity of his Character if in this forsaking He obliterated everyone of ancient Israel? That is why there is a remnant, according to grace, that would return to the land. Israel is the only nation in historical record that was twice removed from their own land, and then later returned, and still has their ancient identity remain intact. That speaks volumes in and of itself.

God promised to restore a remnant of people back into the land after such purging. Therefore, there is no absolute total rejection of the Jewish people as that would be contrary to God’s own promise/word. If he did totally forsook/abandoned all of the Jewish people this act in and of itself would negate God as being God truly faithful and one who inflicts just wrath. I’ll pose this hypothetical question below to you so you can grasp this a bit better,

If you were the devil back in the OT and trying to usurp God, what would you do with Israel? Would you not entice them to sin in such manner that would try to have God deny his word/promise to the Israelites through the very sin God hates the most? If God totally forsook all the Jewish people, then God broke his word, and the integrity He has in Himself is proven in error, he is not faithful to himself or to those who he creates.

Theoretically, the Devil could trump God and exalt his throne above God’s by this act as well as disprove God is all powerful as well (Remember there is a real spiritual war going on). God is holy/righteous, God of Justice, etc, and must forsake and punish the wicked away from his presence, so if God absolutely abandoned / forsook all of Israel – how could God really be faithful and just and more than able to keep his word if he breaks or strays away in one small part?

God on the other hand outsmarts the devil, takes care of the wicked and brings to repentance the Israelite and restores a remnant back into the Land as He said He would; thus God never forsakes His people rings true and his justice remains supreme! God does Not Forsake His promises and people but the wicked of the land he will bring to ruin in the land and purge the rest out of the land. Now look at these verses that explain how God will never forsake his people, the Jewish people: Jeremiah 31:7, 8, 9c, Deuteronomy 30:1-6 promise of regathering - Ezra 9:9 and Nehemiah 9:17, Isaiah 42:16, Psalms 94:14, Isaiah 1:9, Isaiah 10:20-23c, Jer 23:3, Eze 6:8, Eze 11:13-21c, Romans 9:27 and Romans 11:5 and then look at Ezekiel 39:23-29 and Ezekiel 37:21-22 - what do they proclaim?

Regathering, the second time…

Twice were the ancient Israelites removed from their land and scattered into the nations and twice they have returned back into the Land. Look at the book of Amos. I’ll take a few verses that describe the second 70 AD scattering of all the ancient Jews into the nations. Amos is explicit in his words and from this we will discover that the Church is positively never ever named Israel or even meant to replace Israel either.

Amos 3:1-2, 11c, Amos 8:1-3 just a few of the 70 AD references in Amos.

The next is not pretty from Amos so if you are Jewsih these verses are haunting and my prayer is for you to find the Messiah and come into better understanding of things to deep to discuss here:

Amos 9:2-4 speaks of 66 AD thru approx 1945 time span

Amos 9:8 refers to 70 AD time frame but notice that God will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob. What happened to them is mentioned in the next verses - Amos 9:9-10. (shifted amongst the nations, etc)

Amos 9:11 is a Messianic Prophecy referring to Jesus' Resurrection and the new covenant and how Jesus will restore the Jewish people as well is given in the imagery of the text in verse 11 and 12. Verse 11 points back to Jesus, before the 70 AD events as the Lord says specific day, not a chronological order of day/events, day Christ rose from the dead to deal a death blow to sin, breaking the devils use of sin in our lives to go after God.

The Next verse is very interesting, Amos 9:12, (NASB uses word Nations but it is the word ‘goyim’ indicating Gentiles that is used) Notice that it identifies Gentiles (NASB – Nations - goyim) who are called by MY Name (Says the Lord - here). Notice it says first Gentiles who are called by the Lord’s name (Note scriptures and that NASB often uses Nation instead of Gentile but the word refers to gentiles): Deuteronomy 32:43, Isa 9:1-2, Isa 11:10-12c, Isa 42:1, 6. Isa 49:6. Isa 61:9, Matthew 12:18, 21, Luke 2:32, Acts 9:15, Acts 11:1, 26, Acts 13:47, Romans 11:11, Romans 15:9, the baptism rote in Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38 and the name by whom we gentiles are identified with Acts 11:26). - As you read in the NASB, read Gentiles where it says nation as that is to whom it refers as this matches the use of the word used in the NT quotes -gentiles-

**This is important as it explicably states from God's own mouth that the Gentile Believers will not be Called Israel!!! - But called rather by whose name? Gentile Believers will not be called Israel but rather called by the Lord's name! Please notice that God's name is not Israel and gentiles are to be called by as Php 2:10-11 - Isaiah 45:23 – Acts 11:26 indicates the name we are to be called under and by - Jesus - we are believers in Jesus - not Israel. The Church is not Israel! This very verse proves that - Gentiles are called by the Lord's name as well as can call on his name and are baptized (placed into) in his name!**

Amos 9:13 is prophetic referring to all what Jesus accomplished – sending the Holy Spirit, new wine - as well as to a future time of dividing he came to bring forth (Note Luke 12:51c). Next verses, 14-15, looks forward at what happens at a future time from the day Amos recorded the Lord’s words.

Amos 9:14 speaks of the second regathering mentioned in Isaiah 11:11-12. How do I know and we all can be certain off this - answer in next verse:

Amos 9:15, "I will plant them in their land, and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them," Says the LORD your God." NKJV

If this as referring to the 1st regathering (Ezra and Nehemiah time) and they were removed again in 70 AD and this verse spoken by the Lord says he will 'plant them in their land, and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them' then this is not the first regathering is it?

If as some Preterist like to say, this refers to the last Chapters of Revelations time frame and not 1948 era but rather to all the New Covenant Church members. Remember verse 12 tells us explicitly that Gentiles Believers will not be called Israel.

Thus Israel in verse 14 refers to the Jewish people alone and this chapter in Amos is referring to something else entirely other than Preterism. Also note how God promised to bring back a remnant of the children of Israel into the Land they were removed from – thus God is proven to Himself faithful to his word, and justice, and proves his compassion true as He is true! God is Faithful, without iniquity, God of Justice, mercy, grace, Holy is He!

Verses 14-15 refer to the 1920-1948-curent time period.

Verses 11-13 refer to Jesus and the Gentile believers tabernacled together with him (1 Co 3:16 - Eph 2:19, 20, 21c - Hebrews 3:6 - 1 Peter 2:5 aslo note 'Holy Spirit in you' that Jesus promised as well).

So as Amos 9:12 states – Gentiles will be called by another name – the Lord’s and since the Lord’s name is not Israel, then, how can anyone say the church is now Israel or even replace Israel for that matter when two groups of people are mentioned in Amos 9:12, 14c one identified as Gentiles called by the Lord’s name and the Jewish Israelites returning back to the land in verse 14?

It is after this period that Jew and Gentile will be joined together as one new man (Isa 62:2, Eph 2:11-15) and as Isaiah says – a new name given to the Jews too (the Jewish people are currently called Israel, Jacob) A new name Isaiah 62:2 suggest the name Israel will not used in the future by Jew or Gentile. For this to happen, the’ captives of my People Israel (2nd regathering) mentioned by the Lord in Amos 9:14 who are still called Israel have not yet received the name change mentioned in Isaiah 62:1, 2, 3, 4, and Eph 2:11-15, therefore the fulfillment of all things is yet to come and resides not in the past as preterist.

The only time period when this can happen is after the 2 second regathering as God remains true to his word, promises, gifts, calling and is faithfully just! God must place his Jewish people back in the land so the joining can be had after one more time, known as the Dividing Times. There is a time of dividing still to come, began when Jesus walked in Israel, culminating and intensifying until the new heavens and earth and city have come.

If you still cannot accept this please notice that since the Israelites returned (and returning 1920 to current date) they have planted in the land and made it fruitful again as verse 14 states. They also have survived many wars out gunned and outnumbered defying the odds. The test will come in the near future - Israel will not be removed from the Land the Lord promises this. The devil will do anything to make God out as one unable to perform it. A time of dividing will fully blossom in its complete fruition…

Here is a mystery:

Job 33:29, 30c, "Behold, God works all these things, Twice, in fact, three times with a man, to bring back his soul from the Pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life.”
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Those are some great points B.W.

I think scripture, particularly Romans addresses this conversation pretty well..

The Remnant of Israel

Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

So it appears that there truly is a Jewish remnant that was chosen by grace.. This appears to be a reoccurring theme in scripture. In fact I believe you even can find this same pattern in Numbers 14:32 where most of the Jews died in the wilderness while only a small remnant made it to the promise land. Look at Numbers 14:30. Very clear.

As we continue..

Romans 11:7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]

9 And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”

Very interesting.. So what happened to the Jews? According to Paul the "elect" DID believe in Jesus while others were hardened.

Ingrafted Branches

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Ah ha.. But did the Jews fall beyond recovery... Nope!!! Rather it is a blindness..

Romans11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Interesting.. The branches got broken off, that appears to be some of the Jews. But the root is still there. And so God grafts in the gentiles into the root.

Romans11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Oooo... In other words be careful gentiles or you will also be cut like the Jews before them.

All Israel Will Be Saved

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]

Did you get that? Israel has experienced a "hardening" not a total rejection until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. Then Israel will be saved.. Very clear...

Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Clearer now? The Jews are loved on account of the patriarchs... For God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Don't you just love the Bible?

puritan lad wrote:

Gman wrote:I'm not sure I understand.. You don't see 1948 in scripture?

Nope.

Gman wrote:or the reestablishment of Israel in scripture

as an event beyond ancient history, no.

So the Bible provides no prophetic events?

Hey there Gman!

Your post on Romans 9 was fantastic and addresses where I was going to go next

You got it down to a tee! So no need for me to go into Romans now! You covered it well!!!

In Fact, I think Paul could have been inspired by Amos 9:12, 13 to help him write in Romans what he did regarding the Jewish people, he would know the OT better than us anyways.

The Jews in Israel today and future, like the rest of the world will go thru a time of dividing, shifting, and thru this, the chaff removed, the grain joined with the other grain already in the house thus becoming one (echaud) with the Lord, there receive their new name, and City and Revelation 21 and 22 gives clue to when this event roughly occurs. As a matter of fact, read Isaiah chapter sixty two quoted below where the Lord (God The Father) is speaking and telling them what their name will be:

Isa 62:1,2 For Zion's sake I will not keep silent, And for Jerusalem's sake I will not keep quiet, Until her righteousness goes forth like brightness, And her salvation like a torch that is burning. 2 The nations (gentiles) will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD (God the Son) will designate.

Isa 62:3,4 You will also be a crown of beauty in the hand of the LORD (Son), And a royal diadem in the hand of your God (Holy Spirit – note two hands mentioned represent two persons of the Godhead). 4 It will no longer be said to you, "Forsaken," Nor to your land will it any longer be said, "Desolate"; But you will be called, "My delight is in her," And your land, "Married"; For the LORD delights in you, And to Him your land will be married.

Isa 62:5, 6, 7 For as a young man marries a virgin, So your sons will marry you (Matthew 25:1-13 Dividing is a theme in Mat25); And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So your God will rejoice over you. 6 On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen; All day and all night they will never keep silent. You who remind the LORD, take no rest for yourselves; 7 And give Him no rest until He establishes And makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

Isa 62:8 The LORD (Yahweh-Father) has sworn by His right hand ( Yahweh-Son) and by His strong arm (Yahweh-Holy Spirit), "I will never again give your grain as food for your enemies; Nor will foreigners drink your new wine for which you have labored."

Isa 62:9, 10c But those who garner it will eat it and praise the LORD; And those who gather it will drink it in the courts of My sanctuary. (Matthew 13:30, 36-43c) 10 Go through, go through the gates, Clear the way for the people; Build up, build up the highway, Remove the stones, lift up a standard over the peoples (citizen - Jew / Gentile believers in Christ as one people - note Eph 2:19, 20, 21, 15, 16).

Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD (Father and Holy Spirit) has proclaimed to the end of the earth, Say to the daughter of Zion, "Lo, your salvation comes; Behold His (the Son) reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him.(John 5:22)" 12 And they (Gentiles Believers) will call them, "The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD"; And you (Jewish Believers) will be called, "Sought out, a city not forsaken." NASB – Highlighted text by author for emphasis on translation.

The Trinity – one God in three distinct persons is revealed in the text and where LORD is used – means Yahweh and where not followed by parentheses – indicates the Godhead F-S-HS speaking
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B. W. wrote:Hey there Gman!

Your post on Romans 9 was fantastic and addresses where I was going to go next

You got it down to a tee! So no ned for me to go into Romans now! You covered it well!!!

Thanks... I think Paul is crystal clear on the matter.

Paul says we become “part” of the olive tree and “share” in the sap of the root. Not supersede.

Romans 11:17
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

We do not replace the originally intended recipients. We are fellow citizens with Israel.. Not only those who are of the law. In fact, I would argue that we need some law in order for grace to flourish. In our society we have laws today.. We have stop signs at intersections, courts of law in our judiciary systems? And policemen?

Romans 4:16
16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Ephesians clearly states that we are fellow citizens with God's people. Not replaced...

Ephesians 2:19
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

I think I see the pattern here..

The reoccurring theme from Paul is that he reminds the non-Jewish hearers that the gospel is first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. Therefore the "one man" is composed of both Jew and Gentile.

Romans 1:16

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Romans 2:10

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

As a postmillennialist, I have no disagreement with the last two posts. We are indeed grafted in, but there is only one tree, Christ. Those who reject Christ are not Abraham's seed, but are of their father the Devil, regardless of DNA. (John 8:39-44).

More on the Amos passages later.