Evidence for God from Science

puritan lad wrote:This list may help make sense of the Apocalyptic Language in Scripture, as well as provide the OT basis for much of what we see in Revelation.

http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2 ... le_27.html

5.) Christ, having protected His church through the tribulation, makes His kingdom grow like leaven, until it eventually fills the whole world (Habakkuk 2:14, Matthew 13:33).

6.) Once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in the "natural branches" will be grafted back in (Romans 11:24-26) during the "millenium", which may or may not be a literal 1,000 years. All continue to take part in the "First Resurrection". Amillennialists would have #5 and #6 as one ages, whereas postmillennialists keep them separate.

7.) Christ Returns. Bodily Resurrection of the righteous for eternal life, and the wicked for eternal judgment. (Daniel 12:13, John 5:28-29) History ends (1 Peter 3:10), Those still alive are "raptured" to be with Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) and we live with Christ forever.

puritan lad wrote:

B.W. wrote:As for Luke 21:20-24 and Matthew 24:15-21concerning generations in light of the posted verse above – it does not make any difference since the dead in Christ will be with Jesus in the Air and watch the ones mortal below doing what he says. Your point remains invalid.

This is what we are debating. Why would you assume that 1 Thessalonians 4 has any direct relationship to the event of Matthew 24? My point is that all of the things Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, including the Great Tribulation, are past history. A clear readong of Matthew 24:21, 34 certainly validates this.

When Was Revelation Written?
By Pastor Tim Warner,
Copyright © answersinrevelation.org
http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/Rev_Date.pdf

There were only two Roman emperors who persecuted Christians on a large scale in the first century, Nero and Domitian. The other Emperors were either indifferent to Christianity, or did not consider it a serious threat to Rome. The first Roman persecution under Nero took place in the decade of the 60s, just before the fall of Jerusalem. Nero was responsible for the deaths of both Peter and Paul in Rome in AD 67, Peter by crucifixion, and Paul by being beheaded.

There is no record of Nero's banishing Christians to Patmos, only his brutality against the Christians of Rome. It was Nero who made a sport of throwing Christians to the lions for the entertainment of the crowds, and who burned many at the stake along the road leading to the Coliseum merely to light the entrance.

After Nero's death Rome left the Christians alone until the rise of Domitian to power in AD 81. Although not as cruel and insane as Nero, Domitian had many Christians killed,the property of Christians confiscated. Scriptures and other Christian books were burned, houses of Christians were destroyed, and many of the most prominent Christians were banished to the prison island of Patmos.

All ancient sources, both Christian and secular, place the banishment of Christians to Patmos during the reign of Domitian (AD81-96). Not a single early source (within 500 years of John) places John's banishment under the reign of Nero, as preterists claim. All modern attempts to date Revelation during Nero's reign rely exclusively on alleged internal evidence, and ignore or seek to undermine the external evidence and testimony of Christians who lived about that time, some of whom had connections to John.

Eusebius the Christian historian, living only two hundred years after Domitian's reign, gathered evidence from both Christian and secular sources that were still extant at the time (some of which are no longer extant today). All of the sources at Eusebius' disposal placed the date of John's Patmos exile during the reign of Domitian. Eusebius' earliest source was Irenaeus, disciple of Polycarp, disciple of John. But he also used other unnamed sources both Christian and secular to place the date of the Patmos exile of Christians during Domitian's reign (AD 81-96).

"It is said that in this persecution [under Domitian] the apostle and evangelist John, who was still alive, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos in consequence of his testimony to the divine word. Irenaeus, in the fifth book of his work Against Heresies, where he discusses the number of the name of Antichrist which is given in the so-called Apocalypse of John, speaks as follows concerning him: 'If it were necessary for his
name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the Revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian.' To such a degree, indeed, did the teaching of our faith flourish at that time that even those writers who were far from our religion did not hesitate to mention in their histories the persecution and the martyrdoms which took place during it. And they, indeed, accurately indicated the time. For they recorded that in the fifteenth year of Domitian Flavia Domitilla, daughter of a sister of Flavius Clement, who at that time was one of the consuls of Rome, was exiled with many others to the island of Pontia in consequence of testimony borne to Christ."2

While Eusebius quoted Irenaeus' statement, notice that he also indicated that other secular histories at his disposal accurately indicated the banishment of Christians to Patmos occurred during Domitian's reign. Eusebius continues:

"Tertullian also has mentioned Domitian in the following words: 'Domitian also, who possessed a share of Nero's cruelty, attempted once to do the same thing that the latter did. But because he had, I suppose, some intelligence, he very soon ceased, and even recalled those whom he had banished.' But after Domitian had reigned fifteen years, and Nerva had succeeded to the empire, the Roman Senate, according to the writers that record the history of those days, voted that Domitian's horrors should be cancelled, and that those who had been unjustly banished should return to their homes and have their property restored to them. It was at this time that the apostle John returned from his banishment in the island and took up his abode at Ephesus, according to an ancient Christian tradition.”3

Here again Eusebius mentioned an ancient Christian tradition, but did not quote his sources, that placed John's return from exile on Patmos after Domitian's fifteen year reign, and Nerva's rise to power (AD 96).

There is more early evidence, both explicit and implicit, from other early writers prior to Eusebius. Victorinus, bishop of Pettaw (Italy), agreed with Irenaeus. That Victorinus did not rely on Irenaeus for his information is clear from the fuller details of his statement not referenced by Irenaeus.

"'And He says unto me, Thou must again prophesy to the peoples, and to the tongues, and to the nations, and to many kings.' He says this, because when John said these things he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the labor of the mines by Caesar Domitian. There, therefore, he saw the Apocalypse; and when grown old, he thought that he should at length receive his quittance by suffering, Domitian being killed, all his judgments were discharged. And John being dismissed from the mines, thus subsequently delivered the same Apocalypse which he had received from God.”4 A little farther, Victorinus again made the same claim.

"The time must be understood in which the written Apocalypse was published, since then reigned Caesar Domitian; but before him had been Titus his brother, and Vespasian, Otho, Vitellius, and Galba.”5

Clement of Alexandria (AD150-220) recounted a story about John shortly after his return from exile, while a very old man.

“And that you may be still more confident, that repenting thus truly there remains for you a sure hope of salvation, listen to a tale, which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant’s death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there toset in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit.”6

The expression “the tyrant's death” can only refer to the death of either Nero or Domitian, the only two “tyrants” that ruled in the first century. Eusebius related that upon the death of Domitian, the Roman senate voted to release those exiled by Domitian. This seems to parallel Clement's statement above. However, the above statement could refer to Nero, except for one fact. In the story that Clement related, he clearly stated that John was a very old and feeble man. John was still relatively young when Nero died.

The story is about a young new convert whom John entrusted to a certain elder to disciple in the Faith. The man had formerly been a thief and robber. Upon John's return from exile on Patmos, he heard that this young man had returned to his old life of crime.Upon hearing this, he sharply rebuked the elder in whose custody he had left him. John immediately set out for the place where this robber and his band were known to lurk. Upon reaching the place, he was assaulted by the band of robbers. He demanded of them to take him to their leader. They brought John to the very man whom John had formerly won to Christ, and left in the custody of the elder. When the young man saw John approaching, he began to run away. John began to run after him, calling, “Why, my
son, dost thou flee from me, thy father, unarmed, old? Son, pity me. Fear not; thou hast still hope of life. I will give account to Christ for thee. If need be, I will willingly endure thy death, as the Lord did death for us. For thee I will surrender my life. Stand, believe; Christ hath sent me.” John then explained to him that forgiveness and restoration was still possible. Clement then stated, "And he, when he heard, first stood, looking down; then threw down his arms, then trembled and wept bitterly. And on the old man approaching, he embraced him, speaking for himself with lamentations as he could, and baptized a second time with tears, concealing only his right hand. The other pledging, and assuring him on oath that he would find forgiveness for himself from the Savior, beseeching and failing on his knees, and kissing his right hand itself, as now purified by repentance, led him back to the church."7

From this account we see that upon John's release from exile on Patmos, he was a feeble old man. John was most likely in his teens or early twenties when Jesus called him. He and his brother James were working with their father as fishermen (Matt. 4:21-22). Assuming John was in his twenties, he would have been in his eighties in AD 96. If he was in his teens when Jesus called him, he would have been in his seventies at the end of Domitian's reign. However, if the “tyrant” referred to by Clement was Nero, then John would have still been fairly young by the time of Nero's death, perhaps in his forties or early fifties. He would hardly be spoken of as a feeble old man by Clement. That John lived until after the reign of Domitian is also shown by Irenaeus' repeated references to his own mentor, Polycarp, being John's disciple.8 Polycarp was born in AD 65, and died in AD 155. He was five years old when Jerusalem was destroyed. He was two years old when Nero died. His being tutored by John therefore must have been at least a decade after the destruction of Jerusalem, and more likely two or three decades afterward.

More than one early writer mentioned the persecution of the Apostles under Nero. They spoke of the martyrdom of Peter and Paul, but made no mention of John's exile during this persecution.

As is obvious to the unbiased reader, the early external evidence that Revelation was written under the reign of Domitian is indisputable...

B.W. wrote:Not at all – glad you admit that Preterist re-do Matthew 24:21, 34 for their own purposes.

B.W. wrote:Let’s go slow because according to the timeline you provided the first Resurrection has already occurred – 70 AD. Let’s see…

Dan 12:1, "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued." NASB

Notice how ambiguous bible prophecy is which is fitting as Proverbs 25:2, Proverbs 1:6, and Isaiah 28:9, 10c explains why. Look at Daniel 12:1 quoted above from the NASB anyone notice the word rescue in that verse – wonder if there are any clues elsewhere in the bible that would indicate some sort of rescue/deliverance in keeping with the context of Daniel 12:2, 3c?

Since Daniel’s words refer to a great time of trouble Zep 2:3 comes to mind first: “Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger. ” NKJV

B.W. wrote:Isaiah 26:20, 21c, "20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain." NKJV

Note Verse one and how it leads into the next two verse quoted above:

Isaiah 26: 21c, "Your dead shall live; together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; for your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead…"

B.W. wrote:Dan 12: 2, 3, " And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever." NKJV

This statement in Job is very interesting as well: “For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, 27 Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!” Job 19:25-27

You have verses in the bible prophecy that connect in context in some way with one another which involve the following – rescue/deliverance, being hidden, entering into chambers to escape the Lord’s wrath and one that states that after one dies they’ll see God, immediately which relates to Hebrews 9:27 and Paul’s statement on being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in 1 Co 5:1, 6, 10c which refers to standing before the Lord in some manner.

So the question is when will this happen? Here bible prophecy is ambiguous. In Daniel 12:1 verse, is there a pause meaning firsts comes a rescue or does the rescue happened along with the resurrection of the dead mentioned in Daniel 12:2-3.

Was there a psychical resurrection or not that happened 70 AD?

B.W. wrote:Does Isaiah 26 and Zep quoted verse allude to the people known as the just? Is this what Jesus may have been referring too in John 5:28, 29c two events or one, ignoring the rescue part?

B.W. wrote:What of Acts 24:15 two events or one?

B.W. wrote:Then there is Philippians 3:20, 21c and John 6:40 as well.

B.W. wrote:If 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 happened 70 AD – the real believers are gone and with the Lord – that bodily resurrection has past.

All modern attempts to date Revelation during Nero's reign rely exclusively on alleged internal evidence

and ignore or seek to undermine the external evidence and testimony of Christians who lived about that time, some of whom had connections to John.

Eusebius' earliest source was Irenaeus, disciple of Polycarp, disciple of John. But he also used other unnamed sources both Christian and secular to place the date of the Patmos exile of Christians during Domitian's reign (AD 81-96).

It was at this time that the apostle John returned from his banishment in the island and took up his abode at Ephesus, according to an ancient Christian tradition

Victorinus did not rely on Irenaeus for his information is clear from the fuller details of his statement not referenced by Irenaeus.

B.W. wrote:Biblical Prophecy interpretations are iffy at best.

B.W. wrote:Dispensationalist are more adapt at realizing errors and repenting once enlightened by the Bible....I am not a Dispensationalist but since Dispensationalist are flexible, I’ll defend them against Preterist snobbish attacks

B.W. wrote:The big flaw of Preterism is this: Violation of the following principles about God – Isaiah 46:10c, Isaiah 55:11, Isaiah 14:24c, Psalms 33:11, Jeremiah 23:20c, concerning his ability to keep his word....To be flat out and brutally honest as I can PL, I am not attacking you but charging that all camps of Preterism seeks to prove God unable to keep his promises

A. The sequence from Herod’s Temple, to Temple of Jupiter, to Dome of the Rock:

1-From 2 Macc 6, we learn that in 167 BC, Antiochus IV Epiphanes attacked Jerusalem setting up a temple to Jupiter and offering pig sacrifices. He ordered the Jews to worship idols and stop keeping the Sabbath and practicing circumcision. A major theme in 2 Macc is that the Jews triumph over Antiochus in the end and regain control of the temple again.

2-After Titus destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, Hadrian became Caesar in 117 - 138 AD. Hadrian, revisits the actions of he predecessor Antiochus IV Epiphanes and sets up a Temple of Jupiter on the Temple mount, ordering circumcision to cease and expelling the Jews from Jerusalem altogether. He not only made himself the object of worship in this temple, but made Jerusalem the capital city of the Roman world for the worship of Jupiter. He also built an temple to Jupiter in Baalbek, Lebanon that is still standing today. Just as Hitler deceived British Prime Minister Chamberlain in 1938 AD that there would be "peace in our time", so too Hadrian deceived the Jews to believe that he was peacefully rebuilding the Jewish Temple, when in fact he was constructing the world headquarters "Temple of Jupiter". As construction began, the Jews probably even helped in thankfulness and praise to Hadrian. But when the Jews finally learned of Hadrian’s true intent, as did England learn of Hitler’s, they rebelled and a huge war broke out in 132 AD where 85 major Jewish towns were destroyed and 580,000 Jewish men were killed. The false promises of peace of Hadrian and Hitler both resulted in major holocausts against the Jews. Israel came to the promised land with about 600,000 men and they were finally expelled from the land by having about 600,000 men killed by Hadrian. The Temple of Jupiter was completed on the temple mount in 135 AD and was the most important (Jupiter Capitolinus) "Temple to Jupiter" in the world. While the Jews of Hadrian’s time may have been looking for the story of 2 Maccabees conclude with a similar victory for the Jews, Hadrian was likely reminded of the same 2 Macc. text to make sure the ending was different.

4-Dan 9:27; 11:31; Matt 24:15; Luke 21:20 are specific prophecies that the "abomination of desolation that will make sacrifice cease" in the Jewish temple which was fully fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. But there were two other shadow or anti-typical fulfillments of these same prophecies. One was in 167 BC with Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the other was in 117 AD with the rise of Hadrian to power. Whereas Antiochus merely offered sacrifices to Jupiter in the Jewish Temple, Hadrian built the largest temples of Jupiter in the world in place of the Jewish temple. We know that Hadrian wanted to make himself the object of worship in his Temple to Jupiter in Jerusalem and he set up a statue of himself riding a horse on the Temple mount at the El-Kas fountain. Tuvia Sagiv believes that Hadrian, in the ultimate act of arrogance and insult to the Jews, placed this horse statue in the precise location of where the Holy of Holies stood from the Jewish temple. Jesus words in Matthew 24:15 echo, "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)."

5-The Temple of Jupiter stood from 135 AD, until the time of Hadrian’s later successor Constantine in 325 AD. Constantine "did right in the sight of God" and was as anti-pagan as any of the most righteous Jewish Kings of the Old Testament. He utterly destroyed Hadrian’s Temple of Jupiter on the temple mount. The temple of Jupiter on the temple mount, lay in ruins for almost 350 years until the Muslims arrived, except for a unsuccessful attempt by the Jews to rebuilt the temple around 400 AD.

6-Eusebius 325 AD: When Constantine came upon the temple mount in Jerusalem, he destroyed the temple of Jupiter that had been built in 135 AD by Hadrian. In building the "Church of the Holy Sepulchre" in 325 AD, Eusebius records how Constantine even removed the soil on the site and dumped it far away. Hadrian had built a temple to Venus on the site and Constantine destroyed and removed every trace of this pagan idolatry. It seems unlikely that Constantine would remove even the soil from the site of the "Church of the Holy Sepulchre" where Hadrian had built a temple to Venus, but leave Hadrian’s statues on the temple mount. Yet in 400 AD, Jerome says that the statue of Hadrian riding a horse was still standing on the very place of the Jewish Temple. Eusebius wrote in 325 AD: "How Constantine Commanded the Materials of the Idol Temple, and the Soil Itself, to Be Removed at a Distance: Nor did the emperor’s zeal stop here; but he gave further orders that the materials of what was thus destroyed, both stone and timber, should be removed and thrown as far from the spot as possible; and this command also was speedily executed. The emperor, however, was not satisfied with having proceeded thus far: once more, fired with holy ardor, he directed that the ground itself should be dug up to a considerable depth, and the soil which had been polluted by the foul impurities of demon worship transported to a far distant place." (Eusebius , The Life of the Blessed Emperor Constantine, book 3, ch 27) Above Article quotes from this Link

Note I cannot vouch for this website or its content – it is used simple as a reference as it points out things rather uniquely.

puritan lad wrote: · If 1 Thess. 4:17 is the pre-trib rapture, then that means that 1 Thess. 4:16 is a pre-trib resurrection, correct? Yet the “First Resurrection” of Revelation 20:4-5 includes “the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.” Aren’t these supposed to be the tribulation saints? How can they have a part in the first resurrection if the first resurrection takes place before the tribulation even starts?

B. W. wrote:The Jews are back in their own Land as a nation – twice now and midst the 2nd scattering another more diabolical abomination of desolation on the temple mount has be set up and been there how many years so far (1,320 years)?

B. W. wrote:Do you see a pattern as well as intent of those who in the past built these? What were their dreams and goals for the world? If you but open your eyes – who knows what you will see form God’s word within the bible.

Please note, I am placing my name here not to make myself out as some sort of grand authority but rather to stake what I say as truth, a truth that you’ll have to decide on and investigate further. I cannot force you or anyone to think a certain way, all I can do is give you enough food for thought and see how hungry you are for the Lord. The rest is up to you…and God.

Gman wrote:...On top of that how can we factor in how the Jews restored their land against all odds? In the 1948 war, Israel practically had no military AND within 60 years become one of the most powerful nations in the world??

Sorry... There is something else going on here. And it isn't chance either...